DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns get 'D' free agency grade from ESPN insiders

I hate the McCown signing more than just about anyone. He was among the last QBs I wanted. Schaub, while having a better overall career than McCown, is worse at this point in his career. Injuries have taken his physical talents away. He also seems like he has lost the mental aspect as well. The TAINT streak killed him.

"The TAINT streak killed him. "

I don't know what that means,but I hope I never get it.

Agree on all accounts. At this point Schaub is just a body. Would have been an awful signing.

I agree. Cheap shot did him in. Played hard. Best to him.

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Is there another definition for TAINT that I don't know about?

I gotta be honest, that's not what I thought it meant!!

From deep in Appalachia

Taint that uncle Ezra's moonshine?

I looked at the title of this thread and it made me wonder, so I looked up what grade ESPN gave us for the 2014 draft. It was a B- only because we failed to pick up a WR for "Johnny Manziel" to throw to. Interesting quote (not from Kiper) read "Gilbert, Manziel and 2015 first- and fourth-round picks is impossible to criticize".

I only point this out because the Browns are being made to look a fool because Gilbert & Manziel flopped their first year. It appears they have plenty of company. So take ESPN's FA opinion with a grain of salt considering their accuracy last year at draft time.

ESPN has to have a reaction to everything. It's their business model.

Are you saying that because you believe drafting Gilbert and Manziel in the first round was smart?

Or are you saying that to deflect blame away from Farmer for making two horrendous picks in the first round?

I think he's saying they were wrong then, they're wrong now and they'll be wrong tomorrow.

Talking heads.

May I ask why the national media is only wrong when they say something negative about the Browns, but why are they right when they say something that agrees w/the homers around here?

I'm saying that giving grades on both last year's draft and this year's free agency immediately after they happened is dumb. It is also what ESPN has to do. They are literally giving a letter grade to something that hasn't played out.

You are entitled to your opinion, but what about this year's FA period excites you? How are we a better team? How can you truthfully defend the drafting of Gilbert and Maziel last year?

Make fun of ESPN all you want, but man, what have the Browns done that makes you happy?

Don't put words in my mouth please. My only point was that since ESPN thought our FA period was poor, I was curious what they thought of our draft last year and posted the comparison. No, I do not think last year's first round was good by any stretch, especially after the first year which is all we have to judge it by.

I also am not expounding on an agenda in favor of current front office. Man is everything an agenda with you??

I have been a Browns fan since 1969 and all I care about is seeing a Browns super bowl before I die and some quick success so my new Grandson who lives in Dayton does not end up a Bengals or STeelers fan.

Don't put words in my mouth please. My only point was that since ESPN thought our FA period was poor, I was curious what they thought of our draft last year and posted the comparison. No, I do not think last year's first round was good by any stretch, especially after the first year which is all we have to judge it by.

I also am not expounding on an agenda in favor of current front office. Man is everything an agenda with you??

I have been a Browns fan since 1969 and all I care about is seeing a Browns super bowl before I die and some quick success so my new Grandson who lives in Dayton does not end up a Bengals or STeelers fan.

I'll respond to this portion of your post first:

I love ESPN. I am not making fun of them. I am saying what they do. Their entire business model is react immediately to things that happen in the sports world.



I don't know if I need to be excited by free agency (or the draft). What will excite me is winning games. With that said, what the team does in free agency (and the draft) directly affects whether or not the team will win games, which, in turn, determines my excitement level.

I don't know if we are a better team. I haven't seen the team play. I will address each "news story" that I can remember off the top of my head (and a quick Google search) and react to how I like it at this point (I will not use letter grades). I will not comment on things that none of us have anyway of knowing the outcome (i.e. Roper as our offensive quality control person). I will also not comment on inconsequential signings or happenings (i.e. Thad Lewis). Furthermore, I will also not comment on the Josh Gordon saga as it is a dead horse that no longer needs to be beaten. I will extend your question from not only the free agent period, but to the entire off-season.

1. DeFilippo in, Shanahan out. First off I don't like the move because I can never remember if DeFilippo has one or two "Ls" in it, so I have to Google his name each time I type it. That makes me not excited. All kidding aside, I don't know if DeFilippo is an upgrade over Shanahan. I have never seen him coordinate an NFL offense. I will say that if the situation with Shanahan became untenable (for whatever reason), it is probably for the best that he is no longer around.

My best guess is that in the very short term (first half of the season-ish) DeFilippo will be a sizable downgrade, as he will be doing something he has never done before (coordinate an NFL offense). I think we can all say that we have experience in getting better at doing things the more that we do them. In the long term I think that the positive relationship that DeFilippo has with the head coach will be a good thing. My guess is that in the long run, we will be a better team with DeFilippo instead of Shanahan. Not because DeFilippo is surely better than Shanahan, but because we will have everyone rowing in the same direction. I can only muster a guess because we have played zero games with DeFilippo as our offensive coordinator. As a human being who can see things unfolding before my eyes, I reserve the right to change my opinion once games are played.

2. O'Connell in, Loggains out. This one is easy. Loggains probably could have been fired after his ill-advised radio interview that came after the draft. He definitely should have been fired because of Hoyer's regression and Manziel's lack of everything. O'Connell has a prior relationship with both our head coach, offensive coordinator, and one of our QBs. I don't think that can be taken as a bad thing (and it is probably a good thing). He was also highly regarded around the league as a private QB coach. I think that O'Connell will do better at this job than Loggains. I have no reason for this, other than I get the impression that O'Connell is highly competent. As a human being who can see things unfolding before my eyes, I reserve the right to change my opinion once games are played.

3. Manziel, rehab. We picked Manziel. He is on our team. He was terrible in the very small amount of snaps he took in 2014. With all that said, if he was having real problems with some sort of substance, then the best thing he could have done for himself (and the team) was get help for those problems. If Manziel is going to be on our team (let alone be the QB), he needed to get things straightened out. This can only be seen as a positive.

4. McCown in, Hoyer out. Both are bad. Both have had very short stretchers where they were very good. Neither is/was going to be the future QB of this team. I hate the McCown signing. I think he was among the worst options for any team that needed a QB. I don't know if he is better than Hoyer, my guess is that their performance will be similar. I do think that McCown is a more willing "mentor" to other QBs. I don't think that actually matters in the long run. I don't know if we got better, I think we are about the same at this position.

5. Hartline, Bowe signed. I don't think there is one person who dislikes the Hartline signing. I think it is very obvious that his presence has improved the team. While I am not a huge fan of Dwayne Bowe, I don't see how having him on the team is a bad thing. I would say the at overall the wide receiver position has been solidified this off-season to the point where we don't have to force anything in the draft.

6. Williams in, Skrine out. I see this as a bet on K'Waun Williams more than a reliance on Justin Gilbert. Skrine, as many have pointed out, is best as a slot corner. K'Waun Williams does the same thing. Williams was signed as a safety net for Justin Gilbert. If doesn't get his poo together we are not left in a bind, we have a short term solution to our cornerbacking problems. I don't think we have improved, I don't think we are worse. We are about the same. (I would like to say that I like Skrine as a player and as a prospect. He was still young and had improved every year of his career. I wish there were circumstances that allowed for us to keep him. For the 2015 season I do not think he will be missed.)

7. Starks in, Rubin out. Rubin was a very bad player last year. I don't know if that was because of injury or because he regressed as a player or both. I just know he was bad. Starks was a cheap defensive linemen who also had a down year. We needed more depth on the defensive line and Starks will provide that. I think we are about the same as last year.

8. Attempt to trade for Sam Bradford. I see this as both a positive and a negative. A positive because it shows that our team is not willing to wait and see if Manziel will be good. A negative because they were willing to throw assets at a player that I don't think would be a great help to the team. In the end it doesn't really matter as he didn't end up on our team.

9. Compensatory pick strategy. I think it is obvious that we are trying to gain draft picks by signing players who were cut and letting players who are easily replaced go. What we do with the picks is a whole different discussion entirely. My opinion is that drafting players to play in the NFL is a very hard thing to do. The more shots you have at drafting players the better.

10. Textgate. Obviously our GM made a very stupid mistake. He and the team will pay (literally) for that mistake. While I think it reveals something about Ray Farmer, I don't see it as a huge detriment to our future prospects. I hope Farmer learned from his mistake and will make better decisions in the future.

11. Jordan Cameron out. I was just about Cameron's biggest fan on this message board. I am/was sad to see him go. I think he was our most talented pass catcher. We now have a gaping hole where he used to be.

12. Jabaal Sheard. I think that Sheard did many things well that went unnoticed in the traditional stat sheet. We have not replaced him. We are currently worse off without him.

Back to your original question: How are we a better team? Overall, I think we are pretty much the same team as we were last year. And the draft hasn't taken place. I think that with another year under the same head coach the team should improve.

On to your other question. . .



I don't think this is all that hard. Gilbert, by many standards, was the best corner in the draft and one of the top rated players in the draft. We needed a corner and Gilbert was available with one of our first round picks. We picked him. As far as we know there were no red flags about Gilbert's character that led us to believe that he would be a turd.

Manziel is a completely different story. He is athletically very talented. There were stories about him athletically that don't even make sense. His character and ability to play football intelligently were huge red flags. We swung for the fences and, so far, missed. If I'm not mistaken you (Versatile Dog) liked the pick of Manziel at the time, right?

Both of these picks, so far, have been bad picks. But both were justifiable at the time. With hindsight I think everyone would have done things differently.

(Sorry for any things I forgot to include and/or misspellings. I don't usually devote this much time to one post and I don't feel like going back to proofread. I am sure someone will let me know what I did wrong.)

How are we a worse team after the FA? We upgraded at Corner, Tramon is a better CB than Skrine, whos nothing more than a slot corner. We upgraded at WR, we upgraded on the DL, and regardless if you think hoyer is better than mccown or vise versa, it really doesnt matter as neither were here to be our starter this year. So actually yes, we have improved from last year. Explain to me how we havent.

Who really cares what the 4 lettered says. They are made up of bandwagon fans, block heads and Trent Dilfer.

I do not. They delight in cheap shots. Seldom right. Just flavor of the day media whoring about controversy. They seem to feel that opinions are an end unto themselves, that the "panel of experts" is the destination for viewers as opposed to the sporting event, and that ginned up controversy they create is superior to reporting.

How many talking heads and has beens does it take? The answer is apparently way too many in my opinion.

Impressive post. I don't agree w/everything you say, but that is not a big deal. I think your post is very logical. I will address your points:

I think your opinion if fair. It sure beats the "Shanny sucks and is a rat" comments that are prevalent on this board. I think the move is a huge downgrade. Shanny is one of the best play designers I have ever seen. I also think his playcalling abilities are above average. He certainly had no trouble finding another job. We lose out on this move.



I don't think it's easy, and if it is, it would be the other way around. Loggains is well respected in NFL circles. O'Connell has zero experience in the NFL. Another negative move.



I am glad he went to rehab, but by the same token......I think the chances of him making a miraculous recovery and being our franchise qb is very, very slim.




I agree that the Browns think McCown will be a better mentor to JM, but I think the reason Hoyer is gone is because the players preferred Hoyer over Manziel and it ain't close. Another bad move.




I like the Hartline signing. I'm 50/50 on Bowe. I always loved the guy's talent, but he has a bad case of alligator arms at times, he has substance abuse issues, and he has underachieved. However, I am okay w/these two moves. I do think we need to draft an impact WR.




I am tired of hearing how Skrine is JUST a slot corner. He played outside and did a very good job and there is nothing wrong w/moving him inside on passing downs, which are more common than ever in the NFL. I see this move as loss.



Rubes was not a very bad player last year. He was certainly more productive than Phil Taylor and Starks is not as good as Reubin. Not a huge loss, though.



I don't think he was worth a first round pick and it is embarrassing that he made it known that he would not sign an extension here because he thought the team was dysfunctional. I do hear you though that it is encouraging that they will make a move for a qb. I just don't trust their judgement on QBs. Thus far, it's been pathetic.




I really don't know much about this and won't comment.




Again, I am not saying the Browns deserved a huge penalty. I am simply saying that it was an ignorant and arrogant move by Farmer and that he lost a lot of credibility w/coaches and players around the league. That is not a good thing.




I would not have paid Cameron big money and I have no problem w/him not being here, but the fact that he took the same amount of money to play in Miami is an indicator of how he viewed the Browns.




He is okay. Not a big loss. However, we need to address that position in the draft.



It seems to me that the Browns should have had more information than guys like you and me in regards to the character of those two players. They actually get paid big money to find out that type of information. You and I are just two schmucks on a message board and we do NOT get paid to do those background checks.

I was okay w/us drafting Manziel........kinda. You obviously KNOW that I wanted Bridgewater in the worst way. I wanted us to trade up for him. No way I wanted JM over TB.

With that said, I did have JM as my number 2 QB. I said all along that he was either going to be boom or bust, but I did think his upside was good enough that we should draft him if Teddy was not on the board.

I have already admitted to being wrong about that. I have done so several times. Perhaps some of you guys should try admitting you were wrong once in awhile. It's actually quite refreshing.

The bottom line on those two first round picks is that at this point in time..........they seem to be very bad mistakes and it makes me wonder about Farmer's talent evaluation going forward. Now, many will say that I am a whiner for saying that, but I really don't see how anyone can have faith in this guy after that draft and some of the shenanigans he pulled thus far.

J/c



During his Thursday appearance on Cleveland Browns Daily, defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil was put on the spot by co-host Matt Wilhelm.

“What two returning players are you most excited to see next season?” Wilhelm asked.

O’Neil’s answers: outside linebacker Barkevious Mingoand cornerback Pierre Desir.

Not many know this, but Mingo’s nagging shoulder injury happened on the second play of the season against the Pittsburgh Steelers. Instead of opting for season-ending surgery, Mingo played through the pain, often times restricting himself to using just one arm on the football field.

“It was so disappointing because I really liked how he was coming on through the preseason and all of training camp,” O’Neil said. “I see him downstairs every day rehabbing his [tail] off.”

Mingo still finished with 39 tackles, two sacks and four passes defended, while playing in a more coverage-suited role where he could contribute with the shoulder.

O’Neil’s second response to the question may have been more intriguing listeners.

Pressed into the lineup last December because of injuries to Joe Haden and K’Waun Williams and Justin Gilbert’s inconsistencies, Desir looked the part of a legitimate No. 2 NFL cornerback.

For a player making his first-ever start against stud Carolina wide receiver Kelvin Benjamin, Desir was impressive, limiting the playmaker to just five catches and 47 yards. The fourth-round pick from Lindenwood University wasn’t expected to see a snap last season, let alone play at a high level.

“I’m really excited about him because he has such a pro mentality,” O’Neil said. “We called on him at the end of the season and he was kind of a guy that we were counting on redshirting the entire year.

“One of the big questions marks about Desir: Was he going to stick his face in the run game? And he showed that he would. And he did a (darn) good job at the line of scrimmage pressing some receivers.”

The Browns are not ruling out Desir challenging veteran Tramon Williams and Gilbert for playing time – and that competition will begin later this month when OTAs begin.

“Having a lot of good cornerbacks is a good problem to have,” O’Neil said. “Our best three will play.”


link

I hope he's right. I'd love for Mingo to prove we don't need another pass rushing OLB. I think we've been over thinking Mingo's role or maybe trying to find something else for him to do (like going into coverage) because of his shoulder injury. Let him attack the QB. That's supposedly what he was drafted for. He's too athletic and fast NOT to use hime for that. Let him do what he was drafted for. Desir had a few flashes of good play but he has a long way to go. That, and he's behind Haden, Williams, Williams, and Gilbert. Desir was drafted at the end of the 4th round so even if he ends up being a backup, it was worth it. If he ends up being well above his draft selection like Skrine was, even better. Still very raw.

O'Neill doesn't come off as a BS-er to me. Kinda like Pettine. I really believe he means what he says. Whether he's right or not will be determined.

I thought it was interesting that they expected to "redshirt" Desir this past year.

Why?

Without going into detail....just that we should have patience with our draft picks.

Oh, I agree. I think injuries and lack of production from the #8 pick may have expedited that, unfortunately.

Hell, now that I think of it, what injuries? Just a lack of production from Gilbert.....everyone moved up a notch.

Mingo.....

'' stop, before 15 decides to come out the woodwork again on me about mingo.

I take notice when coaches praise players. Not head coaches so much, but coordinators.

I thought Mingo was pretty good as a rookie, but was disappointed w/him this past year. I didn't realize that he hurt his shoulder. I think he has talent. We'll see.

DeSir? Not sure I see what his coach does. The guy gave up SIX first down completions in that game. That's not good. He doesn't have very good hips and I don't see him as a good tackler. Hopefully, I am wrong. I once thought Skrine sucked and he proved me wrong.

Skrine surprised almost everyone. well, at least until he left. Then suddenly people felt like he sucked again. lol

I was sad to see him go. With his improvement trajectory over his 1st contract, I was keen to see how much more he could do. I really don't think he's hit his ceiling yet... at all.

I hope Desir has the same improvement that Buster showed. If so, it takes a lot of draft pressure off the FO in the next 2 years.

He showed some potential. Wish we could have seen a little more reps, but I think he'll have a bigger chance to increase his playing time this year with Skrine's departure. And to learn from Williams and Joe Haden.

I'm real anxious to see how the corner spot shakes out. Well more so the battle between Gilbert, Williams and Desir for the #2. IMO, no one will be capable of beating out K'Waun at nickel.

Why do you have to resort to making things up?

Heres my take on Farmer, agree with me or not. I see AS A WHOLE his draft was very well done.

Bittonio would be a top 5 pick this year and is going to be a yearly pro-bowler

Kirksey looks like a great value pick and I see good things for him

Then you look at the talent he was able to get inf UDFA with Gabriel and Crow, and I honestly cant remember a draft/post draft that someone acquired so much talent.

I would say as for JFF the jury is still out, but he seems like a longshot but I am willing to give him another go before I pass judgement.

Gilbert so far from everything I have read seems to have got his head on straight and has been working out with Haden this offseason. I believe that he will show vast improvement especially with Tramon here to give him that veteran leadership.

You cant really grade a draft for 3 years is most cases. But I believe his draft was pretty well altogether.

Crow was easy. All that took was the willingness to take a flyer on him.

Everybody knew he was talented. But his off-field issue made him a risk and kept them away.

Luckily he's been on the straight-and-narrow so far. Hope he maintains that.

terrence west is nothing to sneeze at either.

Really I'm not. When reading this board, most all posters raved about how much Skrine improved with each year he played. And I agree with that.

In the thread about which potential FA's our FO needed to re-sign, Skrine was on almost everyone's list. Now this was While Skrine was playing as an outside CB.

Now all of a sudden, we are better off with an aging veteran and Skrine is strictly an inside CB. I just find it funny how things change like the direction of the wind around here.