DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Religious Freedom.

So, you come up with quotes from 1946 and 1959 and think that proves a point? When in fact, the laws changed in 1964 I believe?

Is it possible for you to live under today's laws, or must you inanely, to support your supposition, resort to laws that are not current?

Refusing service to someone, today, based on race, is illegal.



Here's a slobberknocker for you: I don't think blacks or gays are bad.

WOW Arch! You are almost an Atheist Liberal now! lol

No seriously though I'm glad to hear that.

Mary was not artificially inseminated by an omnipotent wizard.

A snake didn't tell a woman created from a rib to eat an apple.

A man didn't take two of every species on a giant boat during a month long flood.

When I call the Bible a book of fairy tales, it's not the result of being closed minded.

It's the fact that the Bible is, by definition, a book of fairy tales.

A 'fairy tale' is:

-a children's story about magical and imaginary beings and lands.

-denoting something regarded as resembling a fairy story in being magical, idealized, or extremely happy.

-a story, especially one intended to deceive.

The Bible is a collection of parables meant to convey moral lessons. The events contained within are clearly fantastical, and are not possible.

The only logical, fact-based argument against everything I've just said is 'well, I believe that stuff happened', which is not much of a logical or fact-based argument.

Swish I don't think your bat crazy =)

Ever see a picture of the cosmic web? It oddly makes the universe look like a network of brain cells in a brain. What if when the universe came into being all the energy formed had a consciousness? That consciousness was God. he then decided to expand out into the void, creating things as he went. Who is to say at each of those new clumps of energy other consciousnesses were not created to a lesser extent than God.

I mean its not like we understand everything about energy or life. god did say he was the beginning and the end. To me that equates to pure energy. I am not saying that I am right but thats how I think about God when I try to think what he might be.

After all everything in this universe is not really there because anything you see is 90%? non existent.

Simply put, God is the beginning of everything. He does not have a Father, He is the Father of all that is. He loves us all, and wants us to love Him in return, but He will not force us to do so. He is also infinitely just, and His laws will be followed, (breaking those laws is referred to as sin in Christian parlance) or as much as He loves us, we will face the punishment for breaking His laws. The wonderful thing is that we have an "out" in the form of Jesus Christ, who died for our sins .... each and every one is us, who will accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

It's funny how many people have a problem with the idea that God wants to be accepted as God, and with the respect and love that such a position entails. Parents want the love and respect of their children ... why would Gof, the Father, be any different?

Something a lot of Christians struggle with trying to understand the Atheist mind set is that we do not necessarily disagree with those moral lessons, just that we don't believe in the mumbo jumbo used to teach them. I do however take issue with the moral lessons that would have people harmed in any way due to protect the religion. Stoning, flogging, beating, killing over religious principles is pure insanity.

I agree with that.

We have improved in civil rights, and in equality issues, but personal responsibility has really nosedived badly. Far, far more people show extremely poor judgement in their personal behavior, as well as in financial matters. Common sense is far from common. Divorce is rampant. We are accepting as a culture, but almost too accepting, and many seek to find excuses for almost any behavior.

It's surprisingly like a scale, where one side goes down, and the other goes up.

Having sex out of marriage and divorce on demand are OK, but prayer is not.

I don't think that I like what that says about us.

It's a crutch of having no legitimate argument when it comes to the process of law or rule.

You can't point to a Bible verse as evidence in court, so the closest resource is to argue that religion is inherently necessary for man to be moral.

As time has passed, and attitudes has shifted, the validity of this argument has begun to fall apart as well.

Philosophical debates on morality are a different animal, but when it comes to law, the last leg is 'atheism leads to immorality', which is no less true or provable than if any theology headed that statement instead.

If God is omnipotent and all powerful, AND he wants anything from us, why doesn't he just take it. He could just make us be born to love him and believe in him... but it doesn't happen. He could just make a world where there are no gays if homosexuality offends him... but he doesn't. If he loves us so much why is there war, disease, starvation, poverty, oppression, killing, rape, torture, sexual assault, etc., etc.?

If he is so hung up on the ten commandments, why does he allow those sins to continue? If he loves us and wants to guide us, shouldn't the next version of the bible be out by now? An update that takes our progress into account? Does it really take 2000+ years to learn those old lessons? If so, all the more reason for the update.

LOL, sorry YT. You know I love you like a brother but I've been down this path a thousand times. I could raise questions that you can't truly answer all night and all day. I don't want to attack your religion, I'm happy you find comfort in it. I just can't find it myself because it feels so damn fake.

Have you ever read the Bible, I mean chapter and verse?

Have you ever really read, and tried to understand what is being taught?

(If you say yes, then I will know you are either lying, or you lack comprehension skills)

The Bible is a beautiful story of the love God has for His people. He is a jealous God, and He is a just God, but He is also an infinitely loving God. God chose Israel, a relatively small nation, to be a nation of prophets and priests, who would tell the world of Him. Can you deny that this has happened? What is the single best selling book of all time?

I would say that God was pretty successful in what He set out to do.

You call the Bible a fairy tale, yet I am certain that you have never read it in any length. I would be shocked if you have ever sat down and read more than one chapter of the Bible. You pull verses and phrases pulled from obvious internet searches, and use the so badly out of context that it is amazing.

Yes, I believe that you do have a stapled and super glued shut, closed mind regarding this subject. There is little doubt about it. Your words prove it.

He also gives us freedom of choice. It's a tough concept to wrap my head around - and apparently you also.

Suffice it to say Jesus wasn't sent her to condemn, he was sent to save. There is no joy for Him in condemnation.

I have to worry about myself - and if anyone asks, I'll talk. But judging is beyond my pay scale, as they say. After all, I will be judged on MY actions.

I perfectly understand the free will or freedom of choice argument. But you only get it one way, he either wants us to act a certain way and be molded to that or he wants us to exercise free will. He can't say you have free will to act just the way I want you to act...???

Again, if he hates homosexuality, why create them? Homosexuals have been here since the beginning of time. I've even seen signs of homosexuality in animals at times. (not so much in mating but preference of and in affectionate companionship.)

This is one of the biggest problems with religion to me, it is so vague and far reaching that it can be twisted into any agenda one wants to twist it into. You can't have it every way and just pick the way that best fits your argument. That's rubbish.

This is also why I know for a fact that the bible was created by man. The lessons (stories) are all very different in their twists. That's why you can find an argument for the use of marijuana and one against it in the Bible! You just can't have it both ways and have a right or wrong way... that's nonsense.

You are right that God could take anything He wants from us, including our free will ..... but that is not how He designed us. He gave us the gift of free will, and allowed us to choose whether to love Him, or not. He does not force us to do so, but He gives us that choice.

Why is there war and such on this earth? Because man sinned. God created a perfect earth for man, and basically Adam crapped on it. God had one rule for Adam, and Adam broke it. Could God have hidden the tree of knowledge? Sure, He could have, but He gave us free will, and the right to choose for ourselves, and that means that we have to choose for ourselves regarding sin as well. Adam chose to sin, and that started this world on the road it's on.

As far as "why isn't the next version of the Bible out yet?" .... because there won't be a next version. Jesus Christ, God incarnate, and the Son of God, God made flesh, came to this earth to walk with us, and to teach while he lived here. He also came to do what no mortal man could do, and that was to become a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world. Think about this for a minute ..... Jesus .... who is God ..... became human, and to fulfill His own prophesy, allowed himself to be tortured and killed, in an absolutely brutal and humiliating manner, for us. He died, in human form, on that cross, and took our sins to the grave with Him. Think about an aspect of God, lying dead, for 3 days, wallowing in sin and all that He finds vile, to save us. He then rose on the 3rd day, and ascended into heaven. He left behind his disciples, who were, following His crucification, a defeated, and dispirited bunch, and yet each and every one of them faced death preaching the word of Jesus Christ to the world. Paul was a man who killed Christians, until his conversion on a road outside of Damascus. God chose truly unlikely people to fulfill His plans .... from David, the shepherd who rose to become King ... to Matthew, a reviled tax collector, who became a disciple of Jesus, to Paul, a man who was wealthy and respected in his religious post ... but who gave all of that up to proclaim the word of Jesus to the world.

The perfect end has already been written. We will, one day, sooner or later, die in this sinful world, and we will rise in the next to face one of 2 fates. We will either be reborn, in a new, immortal and perfect body, to live in the glory of God forever ...... or we will face punishment and death for our sins. God gave us the perfect way to escape judgement and the final death. We can do nothing to earn salvation, but we can choose to accept it as a gift. He leaves it up to us to accept it, or not. Nothing further needs written ... on this earth, anyway. The perfect ending is already written.

I call this stuff "statistical lies". Please note. I am calling out the author of this stuff. Not you.

To suggest a cause and effect relationship is misleading and the author is leading your to his pre-determined outcome.

Yes, I have read it. I have actually read multiple versions of the New Testament, with a focus on the changes within and their relation to the powers and sensibilities of the times.

No, I am not lacking in comprehension skills. I have two degrees in literature and one in writing. I am beyond qualified to examine any given text and extrapolate overt or underlying meaning from it.

Where your assumption is incorrect is when you assume that the meaning you derive from it is the correct interpretation of it, and mine is incorrect.

You're mistaking interpretation for comprehension.



Can I deny that what, specifically happened? The whole thing?

Yes. Absolutely. Snakes don't talk. An omnipotent wizard didn't help a man part the sea.

The book is a collection of fairy tales and fables meant to convey moral messages. The events didn't take place, and my failure to believe in the fantastical and magical fables within isn't an inability to comprehend the moral messages contained within.

Your argument is 'if someone reads and truly studies this thing cover to cover, it will all make sense'. And this is incorrect. It's a book of fairy tales. And a highly contradictory one, at that. Recognizing it as such isn't a failure to comprehend its contents.

Okay, take God out of it. What do you have then? Proven stats, right?

Do you doubt or deny that a man named Jesus died on a cross?

YT, you are a believer. I don't want to fight with you brother. I can't even begin to tell you how flawed I feel your thinking is on this and I'm sure you feel the same about me, so in the interest of friendship, I'm going to drop it for now.

Have a good night man.

Bad question to ask Arch. We don't believe Jesus, at least the Jesus of the bible ever existed. And we really don't believe he was the son of God.

Not particularly, no.

My point was that laws changed in 1964 precisely because of quotes like those.



A 'supposition' is an 'uncertain belief'.

I am very certain that we created the laws we created in 1964 due to comments like those I posted.

I am very certain that telling a homosexual he can't eat in a restaurant is a direct violation the Civil Rights Act's intention.

My supposition is that in a few weeks, the Supreme Court will vote 5-4 in a Kennedy written majority decision that barring gay marriage is unconstitutional, at which point the dominoes will rapidly fall, and it will be specifically illegal to tell a gay person that you can't serve them because they're gay.



This isn't surprising to me in the slightest.

Even if I accept the stats as being accurate, the answer is they are just stats. And I really really doubt the source.

Let's just look at one item.

2. For younger girls, ages 10 to 14 years, pregnancies since 1963 are up 553%.

Why 10-14 year old girl?.. We know that with improved nutrition, a girl will reach childbearing years at a younger age, so if we want to lower that amount.....

Stats such as this are always per capita, and adjusted for the numbers.

I could just as easily blame WW2 and come up with a plausible cause and effect.

I know that the discussion is around school prayer, but the stats also coincide with the Civil Rights Act...

One of the themes of The Wire really was that statistics will always lie. Statistics can be made to say anything. You show me anything that depicts institutional progress in America: school test scores, crime stats, arrest reports, anything that a politician can run on, anything that somebody can get a promotion on, and as soon as you invent that statistical category, fifty people in that institution will be at work trying to figure out a way to make it look as if progress is actually occurring when actually no progress is.

- David Simon

Okay, so you are admitting that the video Swish posted was a waste of time, because it is not legal to deny service to someone based on race, right? In other words, if someone were to actually DO what the video showed, they would get sued, and rightfully so, right? Civil rights.

I find it odd that no one on here commented on Dave's video, in Dearborn Michigan, where muslim bakery's told the guy "no, we won't make a gay wedding cake." That somehow missed the national news.

One pizza place in Indiana, one bakery in (I think) Colorado - and it's all over the news.

Hey, pdr, you're a writer, correct? What would you do if I said "I want to hire you to write a movie about Christianity, and you have to write it my way?"

Would you write it? After all, I'd pay you. Would you have the right to say "no, I won't do it"? Or, because I came to you, would you be forced to write it?

For the record, yet again, my son is gay, so please don't think I'm biased against gays.

This is a perfect example of why you should steer clear of clever debate, as it's an arena you lack talents in (and subsequently get clobbered in).

The fact that it is not legal to serve someone based on race has no bearing on whether or not the point or message conveyed or attempted to convey makes a particular video or piece of writing valid or invalid.



I haven't seen the video, but what is the point of it.

I would expect a devout Muslim to attempt to deny service to a homosexual

This is a perfect example of why you should steer clear of clever debate, as it's an arena you lack talents in (and subsequently get clobbered in).

The fact that it is not legal to serve someone based on race has no bearing on whether or not the point or message conveyed or attempted to convey makes a particular video or piece of writing valid or invalid.



I haven't seen the video, but what is the point of it?

I would expect a devout Muslim to attempt to deny service to a homosexual.

Will it flip my base assumptions upside down? Will it show me that deep down inside, we're all good people, just trying to get by?



I'd ask "How much?"



If I had a store that advertised itself as a walk-in-give-me-money-I-will-write-what-you-want-me-to-write' establishment - and if I were to open such a shop, the intent would be undeniably recorded over and over through various charters and applications - then you're goddammn right.

And I'd be more than happy to put my money where my mouth is.

I currently charge $85 an hour for my freelance writing services.

If you or anyone you know would like me to craft an argument as to why homosexuals are bad people, and we need to be able to make them second-class citizens, PM me and let's get to work.

I have a Pay Pal account you can pay my LLC through.

Before we get started, I'd like to let you know that personally, I think you're a moron,

But I will take your money.

Might want to watch what you say. Or, we can highlight it, for everyone's viewing pleasure:

The fact that it is not legal to serve someone based on race [/quote] What does that mean? Fact: it is not legal to serve someone based on race? What are you talking about?




I haven't seen the video, but what is the point of it. [/quote]
Perhaps you should watch it.


But a devout Christian can't deny service to anyone? There it is folks.

pdr says muslims can follow their beliefs, but Christians can't, in the course of business. Nuff said.

pdr attacks others for spelling - yet poo poo's his own spelling mistakes.

pdr promises a "considered thesis" on religion - or lack of religion, but backs out because ........well, because. But he demands answers to his questions.

pdr is predictable.

I sincerely don't understand what the point of this is.

The part after the colon literally reads like something Charlie would say on 'Always Sunny" when he's drunk.

Could you rephrase your line of questioning?



How about you give me the gist of it?



Where in what I said did you interpret 'Muslims should be able to do this'?

I said - and I quote and will bold for you -

I would expect a devout Muslim to attempt to deny service to a homosexual

What part of that statement led you to infer that I was saying Muslims could or should do that?

If I said "I would expect a serial killer to try and murder people", would you assume I was OK'ing a serial killer to try and murder someone?

And for the record, I laughed out loud at the 'there is it folks' and 'nuff said'.

Did you seriously think that half-baked retort warranted those two mic-drop statements?

I guess grammar isn't your cup of tea. That's fine. Until you - YOU - call people out about it. And you did.

So, your promised "considered thesis" isn't coming because you are too busy in rehab (good for you - I hope you over come the problem/s), and the computer you wrote everything on is at work. And you're not allowed to go to work.

Watch the video Dave posted - page 1, maybe page 2. If you're off work, you have plenty of time - watch the video. Why is it okay for muslim bakery's to deny service to gays?

This is a pathetic stretch by even your standards.

What I said - and feel free to pull up the original quote - is that if you are explicitly touting your own intelligence, and telling others that they aren't intelligent, you should cross your T's and dot your I's.

You tried to spin that into 'irony' (which it wasn't; irony would be if I said something sarcastically and it happened).

What you were reaching for was 'hypocritical' (which it wasn't; hypocritical would be if I said "PDR never maekes spelling errors evers'.



I am allowed to go to work.

I am on medical leave.

Which reiterates the point I keep making -

My actual employer, who pays me money to write the things I promised them I would write, has less of a problem with me telling them 'I am in a bad place, and I'm not up for it' than you do.

My employer, who pays for and profits from things I promised them I would write, is more comfortable with me not writing them than you seem to be with something I said I would do for free on a message board.

Is there a greater point to this line of questioning about the "considered thesis", or are you just trying to play 'gotcha'?



It's not.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or is this seriously going that far over your head?

I bolded my comments and even threw in an easy-to-follow analogy.

Did you honestly, after all of that, still misinterpret my point?

The point of the video was to highlight how religious people use their beliefs to gain a legal loophole to practice their bigotry.

And yes, chrisitianity has been used as a way to suppress civil rights for a long time.

There's already historical example. That you even try to debate facts and hard evidence has me confused. There's nothingo debate about. It happened.

You keep acting like the past is the past and we shouldn't wory about that any more. Yet you're being real close minded because you're not even realizing that history is repeating itself right before your eyes.

He's trying to play a semantics game with nothing but mimicry in his pocket.

OK, Arch, I took the time to watch the video Dave posted.

The Steven Crowder video, yes?

After watching this...

I'm mildly resentful that you wasted my time asking me to watch something so incredibly ineffective, unfunny, and more or less completely pointless.

You seriously badgered me to watch that? This guy makes Greg Gutfeld look talented.

And more importantly....when you asked me about it, I said, before seeing it:


I would expect a devout Muslim to attempt to deny service to a homosexual.

And that's precisely what happened.

This guy recorded Muslim bigots being bigots.

I fail to understand his, and moreover, your point regarding this video and why you felt strongly enough to suggest I watch it.

It works more effectively as a parody of someone making a poor argument than it does a sound argument.

What part about a man videotaping Muslims violating peoples' civil rights did you feel was an effective counterpoint to my argument?

But no one asked you to do something for free.

You, unprovoked, threw down the gauntlet to Christians when you started your thread titled, "PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians".

And then you left it unattended.

So while I have empathy for your recent/current events and the need to recover from such, it's hardly honorable to be condescending to someone as if they asked something for free of which you don't have time for right now.

When in actuality the whole premise was of your own making as you explained in your thread, "This thread is sort of an experiment of mine to pose a question, ponder responses and from there take the time to write a considered thesis."

So if you invoke others to participate in your experiment, garnering from them a considerable amount of time, thought and seven pages of responses, then you owe them your thesis without treating that responsibility as though it were something they asked of you for free.

There is historic proof that He did. I don't know what people expect .... maybe a glowing heavenly billboard or something?

Prove that Pontius Pilate lived. Oh, skeptics said for centuries that he didn't ... and that proved that the Bible was false ....... until they found a 1st century engraving mentioning Pontius Pilate by name and title .....

Pontius Pilate was a governor in Judea. He was an important man. Yet we know more about Jesus than we do about the man who governed. Jesus is mentioned in the Bible, and in Roman historical writings as well. This was the son of a carpenter, and yet He has numerous historical references outside of the Bible. Why? There were reportedly hundreds of men who had claimed to be the Messiah prior to, and following the arrival of Jesus. Name any of them. I sure can't.

Further, not only was Rome committed to wiping out Christianity, but so were the Jewish authorities. There was nowhere where Christians could go for protection, yet people still converted to the religion. They did not convert out of fear of being killed if they didn't, but they did so despite the real fear of being killed if they did convert. There is no reason why the disciples should have decided to carry on after the death of Christ, as they were certainly not treated in a complimentary manner in the Bible. The Bible showed off all of their flaws and failings. Why would a man write a report that made him look bad? Most would write such an account, and finesse it to make themselves look heroic. This did not happen in the Bible.

As far as why I believe that God is real .... it's because I have felt His power in my own life. I have seen miracles. I haven't received one with regards to my back, yet anyway, but perhaps God has a plan that requires my back to be in the shape it is. Maybe He wanted to make sure I turned back to Him after a long time thinking of God as someone I defined, instead of being defined by Him. Maybe He was serious when He told me to forgive my father, after he returned to my life after almost 40 years. (and I refused to do so for a long time) Who knows?

I will share one specific instance where I felt God's power, and it was so overpowering that it was amazing. My doctor put me on a narcotic patch, and it made me go almost completely insane. I was crying, in agony, and having all other kinds of physical and emotional symptoms. I was screaming at, and cursing at God for doing that to me, asking Him why ..... and I felt Him answer me in my very core. It was one of those voices that wasn't exactly a voice, so much as a comforting presence, one that I felt more than hearing. He told me to call my mother, which I did, and she told me to call my doctor, while she came over. It took her about 20 minutes to get to my house, but I could feel God's calming influence on me, bringing me some peace, (and keeping me from jumping out of my 2nd story window) when I had everything but peace prior to that moment when I felt Him speak.

No one can convince me that God does not exist. I am certain, with every ounce of my being, that He is every bit as real as anything on this earth. I do not say this to offend anyone, but I truly feel sorry for anyone who refuses to open himself up to God, and to allow Him in. You cannot imagine the comfort the presence of God brings.

I do hope that you (and those others who do not believe in Him) will, one day, have the opportunity to know Him, and experience His love as our heavenly Father. KI realize that some people have had bad experiences with religions. I took a long time in finding a church when I decided to start going to church again. I finally found a church that agreed with my core principles, and that didn't have a continually screaming and condemning message. I hell mentioned? Sure it is. However, so is the good news that we can all escape God's punishment simply by believing in Jesus Christ.

It is so easy that frankly I cannot see why anyone would refuse to do so. Ask Christ into your life as your Lord and Savior, repent of your sins, and follow Christ. That's all it takes to guarantee heaven.

If I am wrong, and those who say that life ends at the grave are right, then I will have lost nothing when I die. However, if the Bible is right, then those who deny Christ will lose a great deal when they die.

I do not want to preach to someone who has no interest in the subject, (well, more than I have, anyway) so I will merely wish you the best in your life.

To those Christians and Atheists who are playing together in life's sandbox congrats and thank you. To those stuffing sand down each others throats, pants, and pooping in the sand. Grow Up, and play nice

How much religious debate would be eliminated if the economy wasn't bottom heavy?

Did the economy tank specifically because of the moral/immoral behaviors of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, secularists.....etc. or did it tank due to the moral/immoral behaviors of those in power?

As the the middle class dwindles, the lower/poverty class swells and the money gets concentrated in an every decreasing number of "individuals" does the urge to blame get to epidemic proportions?

I used to to be defensive about the accusation of being anti-wealthy, but like the moment when I decided that there's no evidence proving the existence of God so why pretend to be agnostic instead of admitting my denial of belief, I have now decided that the "American Dream" is a myth.

The America dream has become a lottery instead of a proven method of attaining a comfortable life. The growth of poverty has been increasingly blamed on the "morals" of those who find themselves in poverty instead the "morals" of those who are accumulating more and more of the nation's/world's wealth.

Certainly Christ preached about accepting and helping those in need as well as warning those who chose wealth over following the spirit of community responsibility.

So I hereby state that I am not only an atheist, but also I believe that the nation's moral decline (?) can be traced to those who promote the "me first" screw everybody else philosophy, as well as those who defend it.

If you're to defend those who CHOOSE to economically rape the nation's/world's children then you are as guilty and if your belief is that hurting children is a sin then maybe it's time to change your ways.

IMO, if a business owner doesn't want to serve someone because they are gay, ugly, red-headed, alien, bald, short, fat or the t-shirt they have on is a color they don't like, they should not be "forced" to service them.

As I have said before, that business will probably go under if they run it like that. but it should be their choice.

Now, an employee of a business does not possess that same right, as it is not their business and they were hired with an expected duty to perform, and those duties are specified by the owner. If that employee has issues with servicing certain customers, then they should not have taken the job, or gotten a clear exemption at the time of hire with a procedure of how to proceed if the situation arises.

So in the case of a doctor, yes, they should be allowed to refuse patients if it is a private practice. I would hope if it is a life threatening situation, all that would be overlooked for the greater good of a human life. Now an ER doctor is not in private practice and should adhere to the standard rules of hospital care.

You have just shown the problem I have with atheists. Most of them, as I believe you are doing, just discount everything that involves religion, and mostly Christian religion. I have stated before on this board that I'm one who would rather study religion that practice it.

Free will - Yes, it's a bit of a conundrum, but if you look at other religions, like Judaism, you would find that god is the receptacle of all knowledge and wants for nothing. God gives, and that is all he does. Jews tend to pray with arms extended and palms up. This is so they can receive what god has to give, which is knowledge, wisdom, and insight. The purpose of this is to make us more like god, so we will pass on our knowledge, wisdom, and insight. To do this properly, we must give up our free will, which can cause us to change the KWI to suit our purposes rather than god's.

Homosexuality - I believe this is just part of nature. Does god hate gays? I don't believe so. Homosexuality is natures way of ending certain bloodlines by preventing breeding. Man's attempt to enforce a law of god is what causes the problem. That being said, I also think that some homosexuals are born that way and have no choice, and others choose the lifestyle. The ones that choose a homosexual lifestyle are the actual sinners, as promiscuity breeds disease, jealousy, and mistrust among people. Maybe that was the message we were supposed to receive.

Bible written by man - Yes. I always thought that was obvious. The old testament is a history of the Jewish people from the beginning of time, as they perceived it. There are other books from that time that are not in the old testament. The Zohar, Kabbalah, the book of Enoch, and others are companion books that should also be read. They contain the wisdom we are supposed to receive. That being said, there are also companion books to the new testament that were not included, as the recently (within the past 100 years) discovered testaments of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene, and the dead sea scrolls. The real trick is to glean all the knowledge from all the sources.

When someone comes into my bakery, I greet them with a smile and good service.

When one of them asks me to make a Gay wedding cake, I say no, I can't do that, but would you like some Bear Claws.

All completely legal.