DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Religious Freedom.

There was a chapter of the Pagan MC in my area when I was a kid. I was loosely acquainted with a few of them. If I recall the symbol correctly, it was basically a grinning devil in red and black, and it was rather sinister looking. They were not the type of people to have upset at you.

The Pagans and the Renegades MCs were involved in a bit of a war during that time, and the Pagan club eventually disappeared. I'm not sure of the circumstances behind that, as the Renegades disappeared shortly after.

Depends on what that "place" is. If a student chooses to pray in between classes, blessing before lunch, prayer meeting with other students before or after school, then yes they have a place.

If "place" is to mean required prayer, then I say no, not in a public school.

Gee I missed this post earlier. I'm all choked up with pride right now. You made a stand. Good show tough guy.
Now, while you are on your feet, please explain to me what problem you have with what you call my ramblings.

I can see Pit's point, especially because that is pretty much my background. I grew up fundamentalist baptist, and was enrolled in a private baptist school and went to several baptist churches.

There were several moments of my childhood in this environment that caused me to question organized religion. Some of it was what we were taught: things like the geocentric model (the sun revolves around the earth) or teachings that stated that women are subservient to men. Others was outdated practices, like me being paddled with a huge paddle (with holes!) by a non-parent in the school for talking to a girl. I suppose the final nail in the coffin for me was when the pastor of the last church I stepped foot in left under not so auspicious terms as it was determined he embezzled church funds.

I look at my life and say if there is a single God, the God of Abraham, that he's been pretty good to me overall. But the church that man built? You can keep it. I'll interpret the Bible myself because everyone interprets it as bests suits them anyway.

Hate saying this but you can't have it both ways, God can not give you free will yet dictate that you follow all his rules and punish you for not doing it. You say he loves us and does not want robots... Yet I see lots of Christian robots on here, programmed to spew religious propaganda at the drop of a hat. (not necessarily you but you know what I mean)

And I can't blame god for the actions of man, if I believed in him then sure I could! If your neighbors dog bites you, is he not responsible to some degree? According to what I see, we are all just trained pets of super invisible omnipotent guy in the sky...

As far as the world being the same now as it was when the Bible was written???? Do you seriously believe that? If so that is a huge part of the problem.

I agree god is the same, because he is a fairy tale.

I'm done talking God and Bible on here and I'm sorry KOB (because you are a good dude) but we will never agree on this stuff.

God wants us to choose Him, and to Love and follow Him.

We are free to choose to do so, or not. However, as on this earth, choices have consequences, and we choose our consequences. We either choose to follow God, accept Jesus as our Savior, and ask to be forgiven by Him ....... or we choose to be judged by our actions based on God's Law. Those are our 2 choices, and each person chooses for himself.

It is our choice. We know the Law, and if we break the Law, then we pay the penalty. (just like on earth) God is loving, but He is also just. God is the creator, and He makes the rules and laws. Maybe a person doesn't agree with all of the laws .... but that doesn't really matter. God is infinitely just, and He is loving ..... and He gives everyone ever born a chance to be given a pardon, by sending Jesus to die for our sins. The only "price" for this pardon is to believe.

Many refuse, and many will continue to refuse. That breaks God's heart, but He honors our choice. God will never break His Law, nor will He break Hid Word. Sin is fatal to us, and has been since the original sin in the Garden of Eden. Sin offends God, and man's sin makes him worthy of death. God gave us a way to life, but we have to choose it. However, we are free to refuse to do so if we want.

It is like a man committing murder, and being given the chance to be given a complete pardon if he will only say that murder is wrong and apologize ..... but refusing to do so. That is his choice, and if the court gave him that choice, and he refused, then they would honor his choice. God does the same. He honors our choices, even if it pains Him to do so.

J/C

Sending me to hell for not believing when there is no evidence of God's existence doesn't seem very just to me.

For the life of me I honestly can't relate to religious belief in any devout sense. I can respect the ethics. I can respect saying "I don't know why I believe it, but it works for me". But any kind of objective truth claim? Come on, there is no way to prove or disprove it.

I get we are all Americans so we debate Christianity. To some extent having an Indian girlfriend influenced me in that she would have these same arguments with Hindus.

It is frustrating. There is no reason to debate the subject from any truth statement standpoint.

I'm not saying the religion has no value or the belief in it has no tangible provable value to your lives. But debating the nature of God and what he wants etc. etc. It's just nonsense. There is no way to prove anything you say. You could be totally right. But there is no reason for anyone to believe you.

It's just really frustrating to discuss.

This single sentence distills my entire religious indoctrination into one coherent thought- and explains why I now seek my enlightenment in the manner that I do.

Those of you who have read my many EE posts mentioning My Pops already know how I regard him (and his memory)... and probably already know him about as well as any stranger could. He's become a 'living character' in these threads, over the years.

So imagine my shock- when at the age of 17- I saw My Pops pull away from a Religious Institution that had been a center of my life (and his life) since the age of cognition.

He pulled away from an entire community that I'd known since I could think and recognize faces and voices. A community that brought My Pops and My Momz together. A community that saw Momz's uncle and Father Figure as the intellectual and spiritual leader for almost 20 years. A community that was there when my Great Uncle Giles married My Momz and My Pops.

"Uncie" was my Grandfather figure, in the absence of traditional grandfathers. He was the Minister of Friendship Baptist Church in Toledo, OH... and my own personal direct pipeline to God. It was through him that I received my spiritual education in the Baptist faith. It was through him that I committed myself to the baptism of the flesh at age 12.

All was good... for about 2-3 years.

Then, I started to notice things.

I noticed that the deacons who were charged with running the early Sunday School classes weren't equipped to handle the questions I raised in class.
I noticed that I was being censured... and encouraged to keep my inquisitive mouth SHUT.
I started 'hearing things' about other pious members of the congregation... things that made me question the sincerity of their convictions and the veracity of their 'life advice' to me.

Then... Pops just left. He'd had enough.

I will never know the straw that broke his back, but I do know this: it was big. It was profound. It was important. And... it dealt with money, impropriety, dishonesty.... and the failings of Man's General Nature.

______________

I didn't need to know all the details of that particular instance to begin asking my own questions about "organized religion," and what it meant to me. All I needed to know was this:

My 'utopian community' wasn't what it seemed to be on the surface. In the next year, I learned enough: money, politics, and personal leverage had led to My Pops' estrangement from a community that he'd willingly and enthusiastically participated in for more than 30 years. Fully half of his life had been devoted to a pursuit that was noble in concept, but flawed (by Man) in its execution.

___________

I had a 'man-to-man' with My Pops on a piano warehouse run for Porter's Music Store (we hauled pianos together as a sideline business for almost 20 years). This is what he told me:

"Bobby: politics will infect everything we ever do. Because politics is the only thing we can understand. We understand power and influence. Things like spirituality and God are too much for us... so we stick to what we know. I won't be going back to 2nd Baptist, because they aren't what Uncie wanted for God's People. You have to decide for yourself if you want these people to keep helping you on Sunday, but I won't be a part of it. That's MY choice. Your choice is entirely up to you."

At that point, I'd seen (and heard) enough.
MORE than enough.

________________________

The only 'spiritual' community I'd ever known, displayed to me the same kinds of dishonesty, 'slick talk' and "spin" that I was seeing played out on the national political stage.... as Richard Milhous Nixon resigned from service from the highest public office in the land.

At that point, I was done with "Organized Religion."

Basically, I'm being asked to trust other Human Beings with my spiritual future, in order to "enter the kingdom of God."

Sorry.

I don't trust a single one of you, the things you post in these threads, or the 'prophets' 'teachers' and 'spiritual leaders' who have influenced you to guide my steps on this planet.

There isn't a single one of you who have said anything to convince me that you're any different than the people My Pops kicked to the curb 30+ years ago.

I've heard it all before.... back when I was 17... and still open to influence.

Today, I'm still striving, searching... and looking for answers. SOME of those answers may be found in the teachings of my youth. For those questions that didn't get answered by Uncie and the deacons at 2nd Baptist Church- I remain open.


I have every reason in the world to keep God in my life.


I have no use at all for Man's earthly interpretation of God in my search for spirituality.

Because Gos is Everything.
Man ain't $#!+.
And neither are the pathetic institutions he erects to his image of what God means to him.

God lives in the heart of the individual. Or not.

A church (or congregation) is a political human construct, and as such, is a flawed, intermediate, and unnecessary step in Man's search for oneness with The Creator.

.02

There is a reason it's called "Faith". God reveals Himself to all of us in many ways, but most are very subtle ways. If a man seeks God, God will reveal Himself to that man. If a man's strongest desire is to ignore God, he will usually manage to do so.

God does not force Himself on us. We must seek Him. It is always our choice.

Clem all I can tell you is that people are flawed. Churches are only as strong as the faith of the Pastor and it's deacons. When they start being more worried about finances and being open to all is when they fall off the strait and narrow. You can't fulfill God's word if you're more worried about making the congregation happy and paying the bills than you are about teaching the Bible the way it is meant too. The bible says what it means. People don't like that because too many sinful activities have become common place.

I love god but i truly can't stand most churches. then again I am not fond of pretending to be anything other that what I am. I am blunt and honest. People don't like that.

amen bro amen

Well I can agree with this. We can never trust anything created by man. I think the goal of organized religion is to promote organized religion first and to serve God second.

Organized religion does however provide a place to gather, baptize your kids, get married, etc. It is kind of like the government of God. Get your paperwork and taxes done there.

It is your personal relationship with God that is most important.

Well, it looks like some people actually get it.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/...sends-donation/

This is a pretty good read. Here's an excerpt.

A gay woman in Indiana has created a stir by coming out in favor of religious liberty, showing public support for Christian-owned Memories Pizza and their decision not to cater gay weddings.

Courtney Hoffman’s $20 donation to the pizzeria was symbolic, but her public stand has been significant.

The pizzeria had to close its doors after receiving a barrage of online threats when the owners said that their religious convictions would prevent them from catering same-sex weddings. One lesbian high school coach reportedly even tried to incite people to burn down the pizza shop.

As in similar cases, the owners said they gladly serve gay customers but would draw the line at catering a gay wedding.

“As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business,” Hoffman wrote in the note accompanying her donation.

Is this example not the same form of discrimination?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/...o-bible-verses/

In a bizarre new twist on the religious liberty front, Colorado officials have determined that bakeries must cater to proponents of gay marriage but are not legally obliged to decorate cakes with Bible verses.

Christian activist Bill Jack has denounced a decision by the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Regulatory Agencies, which found Azucar Bakery in Denver not guilty of discrimination for refusing to bake a cake adorned with Bible quotes condemning sodomy.


BTW, Swish, my last two posts were not directed at you. I used the quick reply feature which puts your name on top as you started the thread.

Clem:

I can relate to what your saying.

Back in the mid - to late '90's, I started going to a Baptist Church. Had 2 boys, 9 & 7 or so and a little girl about 3. Over the next 5-6 yrs. we went through 4 preachers. The last one was really hard for my boys and I, since we grew close to him and his family. It was bad enough, that when you walked in to sit down, the ones on the left side would look at the ones on the right side and they would start talking loudly between each other, about why we should vote to oust our Preacher. I refused to be apart of it and told all of them they should just leave it alone and that they already have run off 3 other Preachers and I was tired of it. They voted him out and that was that. Pretty soon we went from about 30+ down to 10-11 people left.

I told myself that for the kids sake we would stop going there because I did not want my kids to start to think that all churches were this way.

After all these years, it finally dawned on me that I didn't do it for the kids sake, I did it for MY sake. It really tore me up and I couldn't accept the fact that God's people would treat each other that way. So I started to teach my kids (We were all baptized and saved in that Church) that the Church was just a building and you keep Christ in your Heart. I think my kids helped me more then I helped them. Their all grown now, but the message is still with us.

There is a lot of irony in that a large part of the country is fighting hard to keep religion out of politics... another large segment is fighting to keep politics out of religion... and the single biggest problem the church has is the politics WITHIN religion.

You see, unlike you, I don't need to go around proclaiming "I'm da hamma"! I'm always on my feet. And I'd say that I'm probably as tough as anyone you would want to meet. Now I don't intend that to mean that I'm a bad ass or anything. Back surgery took care of that some years back.

But what I mean is that I'm strong in my beliefs. I know who I am and I'm fine with that. The problem I have with "your ramblings", is that what you portray on this message board is that there is only one way for everything. Anyone who doesn't believe as you do is weak or labeled a liberal. That's laughable at best.

Some of us, at least myself, believes that as long as the media and politicians can keep us as a people divided, it makes us a weaker nation. And you represent the epitome of that. You act as if anyone who doesn't agree lockstep in line with your beliefs has some kind of defect.

You see, I consider moderation a strong suit. I see extremism as the biggest problem in our world today. And one thing you need to understand is people like myself decide elections. I live in Tennessee who has a Republican Gov. that I very much support. I have also supported Democratic politicians.

About one third of voters are GOP and about one third are Dem. It's people like myself who decide elections and it's people like yourself who run people like me away in droves. To achieve the goals you strive for, you are your own worst enemy. And you don't even realize it.

And yes, I find that laughable.

Jeez bro you was trying to shake his soul with that post.

No chill.

Ouch, ok, let me help you back up on that fence, I give.

On the other hand, I hear you flip floppin on all kinds of issues on here and that is where I got the fence reference.

When it comes to politics, on one hand you are a moderate, all the while posting against everything Conservative or Moderate and taking the Liberal side on almost everything. You seem to take it personal whenever anyone says anything against Obama.

Then with Religion, you are a Christian who supports Homosexuality in your posts.

See my confusion?

As somebody with the highest experience of taking it personal with Obama, I can say without a shadow of a doubt you're completely false about pit in that regard.

I will wait to see what Pit has to say.

Pit can answer for himself but.......


I'm a conservative. Those who speak for conservatives on the national stage are, for the most part, morons. Being a conservative and being a constitutionalist are, at times, at odds. For example, a conservative would be against gay marriage because they don't like change and it is a departure from what they are used to. A constitutionalist would be in favor of gay marriage because it is about equal rights and there is absolutely nothing in the constitution preventing it. Many Christians (who claim to be both conservative and constitutionalists) are against it because they just think it's icky and that their Christian principals should circumvent the lack of constitutional basis for allowing it but they also don't want the government involved in their religion.


I'm also a Christian. Supporting a persons right to live as they see fit is not the same as supporting the decisions they make. I support a persons right to drink, smoke, swear, cheat of their spouse, gamble, eat at McDonalds, envy their neighbors car, and pray before a porcelain kitty figurine... doesn't mean I think they SHOULD do those things, but they should be allowed to and the government shouldn't be allowed to stop them or to allow me to have rights they don't have just because I do NOT do those things.

Also, as a Christian, it is not my job to tell them that what I view as their sins or wrong-doing are any better or worse than my own. It is my job to introduce them to the word and love of Jesus, show them love and tolerance, be there for them. If they choose to follow Jesus, I should be ecstatic... even if they are still gay.

Great post.

Just a question, but can gays be Christian? Why they would want to be with all of the intolerance is beyond me, but just a question.

The church that I went to when I was a child has become very, very liberal in allowing gays and lesbians. My parents still attend there (they've been members for over 35 years and really don't want to leave), though I can tell it makes them uncomfortable along with many of their friends. They are tolerant of it though, only getting upset when politics is preached.

People like you are what drives others away from religion IMO. It is the reason why I really no longer care at all about it as getting caught up with zealots like you is a lost cause. The intolerance is incomprehensible to me just "because the Bible says so".

Nice post Pit. I have often (but not always) found myself agreeing with many of the things you post. I can relate here as I also have supported politicians of different political parties and consider moderation to be a good thing. Sometimes this just means that both sides hate you

It gets tiresome seeing a book get thrown at peoples' faces. If something is wrong, one should be able to clearly articulate why it is wrong-- e.g. someone is threatened, hurt, killed, property is stolen, etc. My thoughts are that if the only reason you can come up with as to why something is wrong is that it was written by men thousands of years ago, it probably isn't such a bad thing.

I agree with much of this except to say that as a Christian I will not place myself in a position of promoting sin.
I really don't care what you have sex with at home, but I will not promote it with cakes and signs and pizza.
I will not support people getting married in sin. Someone once said "If anyone has any objection, speak now or forever hold your peace." Well I'm Yelling it!
If you involve me, I will say to your face that it is a sin. I don't care what sin it is, it is a sin and I will not promote it. I hate when I sin so why would I support yours?

Now, try some Bear Claws, their great.

Can adulterers?
Can thieves?

Of course they can. God doesn't hate people, God hates the sins they commit.

I feel I'm pretty consistent on my stands of issues.



I don't see it that way. You see, it's often the media and some politicians that spoon feed people what is supposed to be liberal and what is conservative. They portray absolutely everything Obama does as the most liberal thing possible. Anything that doesn't walk lock step with FOX News is supposed to be liberal. In the sake of fairness, the exact opposite can be said for MSNBC. Anything that goes against what they say is somehow conservative.

Where I differ is I won't let politicians and news sources dictate to me what views I hold. Let's take Iran for example. As of now, they ARE building a nuclear weapons program. Our current sanctions are doing nothing to prevent that. So we have two real choices. Go to war with Iran to keep that from happening, or come to some agreement that will put that off and monitor them.

Now I'm not saying an agreement will work, but if not, we still have the option of war. As of now, Israel doesn't like that idea. Now I'm tired of catering to the rest of the globe. Israel has s strong military and if they're so interested in dealing with Iran, by all means, they should. But I'm tired of fighting wars that will really have no end.

I have studied that area of the world. The factions such as the Sunni, Shia and Bathists have been warring for centuries. Nothing will change that. No matter who is president, no matter the party, whenever we leave there, we will see what we are seeing now.

And as far as Obama goes? That's where I believe everyone gets lost. It's exactly what I said earlier. It's not us verses them. What's going on in our nation today has been caused by both parties. To me, people who try to uphold one side by blaming the other refuse to look at the big picture. The war in Iraq was a huge mistake. That was on the past administration.

We are where we are due to policies enacted by both parties. If people could take a rational look that would be very clear. I'm not one who is strictly opposed to war. Our country entered into two wars at one time pretty much. The war in Afghanistan I very much supported. The war in Iraq I didn't support. I felt that way from the beginning and feel that way now.

So it's not that I support Obama, it's that there's plenty of blame to go around and so many act like there's not.



If that's actually what you have gotten from my posts, yes I could see the confusion. But here is where you have misunderstood. I don't and would never support something I consider to be a sinful lifestyle. I'm not a "supporter of homosexuality".

But those are my personal moral and religious values. That's what is right for me and my life. Nothing about gay marriage or serving gay people has any impact on me believing those things. I'm still free to believe and live the way I choose.

What I oppose is me having the right to use my personal and religious beliefs as a weapon upon others. While I feel I have every right to believe as I do, once I use my beliefs to restrict the rights of others who believe differently than myself, then I have inflicted what I believe upon them.

Let me give you some examples of things I don't understand about Christianity that most follow.

Using pagan symbols like the Easter egg and Rabbit in Christian holidays.

Saying we believe in the Ten Commandments yet forsaking the Sabbath. Keeping mans holidays rather than Gods Holy days.

Jesus was clearly born in the spring yet an arbitrary date in winter was chosen to celebrate his birth.

I could go on and on. But yes, my belief system is certainly my own. I don't believe going to every possible measure to advert war is liberal. I think it's practical. I believe that having my beliefs does not give me the right to use those beliefs to deny equality to those that believe differently than myself.

Now you may consider those ideas liberal or you may see that as fence riding. That's your right. But I try to base my political beliefs on practicality. Not being affiliated with either party makes it easy for me to see that both parties have inflicted a lot of bad strategies and policies on the American people.

I certainly don't believe in a "one size fits all".

40,

The country, as a whole, is on the right of the political spectrum. Any ounce of being a moderate makes everyone think they are a pinko-commie because of how right we've fallen on the world political compass.

Hmmm.

Reads like one of my posts, the rantings of a Madman.

I disagree with most of it.

From what I've read of your posts, I expected as much. And I'm okay with that.

Now that we have that behind us, wanna make out? I'll bring Bear Claws.

I have been fairly outspoken in my opinion that businesses should have as much latitude as possible to decide who they do business with. I know that promotes a conundrum in some people who say.. well should a hardware store be allowed to deny service to blacks because of some moral objection... part of me thinks they should. That's an unpopular opinion but I think we have reached a place in the development of our equal rights that allowing those business owners who have such objections to expose themselves might be a good thing.

Who would want to work for them? Who would want to shop there? Give society a chance to find it's own equilibrium of who does business with whom.

If there is a flower shop owned by a practicing satanist who hates everything that I stand for, I'd like to know that. I'd rather buy my flowers somewhere else than give him money that he can then use to promote an idea that I absolutely despise. That is the one thing in the gay marriage/bakery discussion that has always confused me, I know that a lot of these gay wedding folks are seeking out Christian businesses to prove a point, but their money is going to that bakery owner, who is then likely to turn around and donate some of it to the church or possibly to some cause to get a gay marriage amendment passed.. why would they want to do that?


I believe that forcing you to be involved in it or participate in it, is quite a different argument than the government allowing it to happen.

And as long as a "marriage" distinction is recognized in government and law for things like taxes, property transfer, hospital visitation, child custody, etc.. then sin has nothing to do with marriage. You are free to get married in a church and place whatever religious value you see fit on that marriage because that is between you, your spouse, that particular church, and God. But just because somebody else interprets sin, church, and God differently than you, is no justifiable reason to deny them the same rights under the government and the law.

So now who's flip flopping?





I don't like bear claws.

You Communist.




Seriously though, how can anyone not like bear claws? I am not allowed to eat them anymore .... but man they are good.

Religious nuts are not minding their own business? You do not have any idea how that can be offensive? You do not see how that can be disputed?



I did not see how the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in any way banned gay marriage. Not wanting to support gay marriage through involvement in gay marriage does not constitute banning. Also, the real issue is who's rights are being attacked here. The "right" to marry or the right to religious freedom? One is expressed directly in the Constitution. I wonder which one?



I have never tried to make my personal beliefs law. First, if I had wanted to make my personal beliefs law, I have the right to do so as long as I do not violate your Constitutional rights in doing so. Secondly, I have always made the argument that it is not about my personal beliefs. It is about my personal rights. They are not beliefs, they are enumerated in the Constitution. What about that is controversial or bigoted?



Outside of your obvious condescending attitude displayed in your text, it has nothing to do with you. Please do not bring your nihilistic views into the forum and then pass them off as tolerant. They are very intolerant.



You are telling him when you will allow him to express his religious values and beliefs. You have the unenviable task of trying to reduce the freedom of religious right of every citizen to intolerance by being intolerant of their beliefs. You are trying to push the boulder up the hill. If you accept that 40 years waiting has the right to religious freedom, you cannot then argue that you have the right to restrict them because YOU feel that they are intolerant. Either he has the right to religious freedom or he does not. Which do you say is true?


Because religious laws aren't being tolerant of other people as well.



First, I do not have any obligation to make your argument for you. I do not have to accept your point of view. I do not have to look at things from multiple views as you state. I have my freedoms, you have your rights, we all have them. The gay citizen has them. I have them, you have them, PDR has them. Your right to freedom of speech is no more valid than the right to freedom of religion. Your voice should not be stopped by the force of the government, nor shall the religious rights of others. I know your point of view. It is not some breathtaking logic. It is the argument of all tyrants throughout history.




My views may or may not effect you. My intent is not to effect you with my views. My intent is to protect your rights as well as my own. The issue is not gay marriage. That can be decided by the people of a state. If you care for gay marriage, help it to be made into law in your state. It is not that I care what two consenting adults do. It is that what two consenting adults do is not the issue. It is that two adults do not want what they do in the privacy of their own lives to remain between two consenting adults. It is that they wish for me to participate in their activities by forcing me to accept their activities by the force of law or extortion. If they want to be married, I personally care less, however, I do care when they then say unto 40 years waiting, or anyone else, you must not only care, you must sanction our activity.



This whole argument makes no sense to the actual issue at hand. But if you want to discuss the economic turmoil caused by frivolous law suits, boycotts, extortion, vandalism, violence protests, no economic issues can be involved... right?



I can see you have anger and hatred toward religion. That would be an interesting topic to explore sometime. As for seeing you wishing it to be banned, I think you would like to see religious freedoms banned. Your argument is entirely based on that premise. Again I am happy for you, your wife, and your daughter for coming to an arrangement you can live with. However, your acceptance of your daughter going to church does not mean you are now tolerant. It means you let your daughter go to church, nothing more.

First off, i made this thread. i made it about religion.

i can bring up whatever i want. don't like me bringing up gay marriage? the log out button is on the top right corner.

religious NUTS, yes, NUTS, aren't minding their own business. the average religious person doesn't give a crap, as they are just trying to live their lives and make it like anybody else. So the NUTS are my problem, and no, i don't care if it's offensive. pray about it.

the religious freedom is huge can be a gateway to banning gay marriage, or affecting it.

who's to say corporations can't start discriminating against married gays, because their religion says it can't recognize the marriage and thus, makes them ineligible to receive certain benefits from work?

if you want to be that close minded about the situation. fine. your right. just like you said you can think however you want, i have the right to say how you think sucks. see? freedom.

when somebody's personal beliefs are made a law, especially about somebody's sexual orientation, it DOES violate the constitution. ya know, the civil rights act of 1964 and all that.

once again, i hate religion, but i am still tolerant. if i wasn't tolerant, you think i'd allow my daughter go to church?

how is that not tolerant to you? my bad, you do think one way. i won't make that mistake again.

how is asking 40 not to preach to me being intolerant? if i ask him not to preach to me, and he does so anyway, is that not being tolerant on HIS behalf? oh yea...you're linear thinking again. i guess i did make the mistake.

you're better off not replying to me anymore on this topic. because i'll fire back, again, and we won't agree.

and i'm currently blazed on top of that, i can go all night.

“Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.“ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding” (Job 38:2-4).

40 is allowed to say what he wants, just like you. Don't like him preaching to you? Take your own advice and click the log out button.

you don't get it. 40 isn't preaching to me, and hasn't for a while. he makes a random post with some biblical passages.

but go on. you and others. I'll be like Vers, the enemy.