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Why do I need to adress everything you said? It's been adressed ad nauseum. Two posts above I said I would not claim the organization is not dysfunctional. You're just mad I won't join in your pity party. Actually that's where most of your resentment comes from. You get mad when people won't join your pity party. You get mad when people won't continue to point the same things over and over again. The post you made with your "points" has been posted by you probably a dozen times. The same post. Over and over again.

You claim you can read, then claimed I called you a liar. I called you a complainer. It's plain as day in clear English. Then I compared complainers to liars. Again, plain as day. I thought you said you can read. Where is this magical reading comprehension you possess?

As to Pettine, I agree he is the glue trying to hold all of this together. He was also completely miffed by the way Shanahan went about things, expressed regret for not going with DeFlip last year, and generally seemed indifferent to him leaving. I think Pettine thinks Shanny didn't fit here. I think that deserves to carry some weight.

Yes Rish. You are a great poster and I am an awful poster. With that established, will your superior self please stop lowering yourself to respond to my inferior self?

Thanks, Your Grace.

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

Why did Buffalo trade to get Matt Cassel instead of signing Hoyer? Both Browns and Bills were fighting to sign McCown. Remember Rex and Pettine are buddies. Why did the Jets decided to stick with Geno Smith instead of signing Hoyer? Why did Houston re-sign Mallett and then Hoyer? Fair competition for starting QB?

Why can't you Hoyer lovers (and I was one) sit back and see how he imploded down the stretch. Who cares what his record was? He played SO bad that a not so ready Johnny had to play.

If we want to keep up our image don't fire Pat McManamon when he is working for the Browns. He will become a bitter old man who posts garbage about them every chance he gets while wiping the tears from his eyes while crying why me.

I am not following you GM are you saying Pat is making this stuff up?

just cant make this kind of stuff up. never saw anything like it.

I have asked myself that same question and I think thats fair. I'm not sure what the answer is but I will say it here I think Hoyer can hold down the spot at least long enough to find someone better for the long term. I think like the Browns, teams would rather lose and have higher picks in the draft then settle for being just good enough to be out of the competition to land a top flight QB via the draft. I think thats why the Browns were settling for McCown and I think Buffalo was doing the same???

But McCown isn't better then Hoyer. My goals are to win games at this juncture I think the Buc's knew they would lose with McCown and they are right where they want to be now as a result, now its our turn.

I never thought that a QB would be brought in to lose but it sure looks that way and I understand it but hardly endorse it..

Is it true Hoyer is better than Kyle Orton? Yet, Bills had a better and winning record than Cleveland. Why?

Browns are shown as dysfunctional because they let Shanny and Hoyer walk and GM text coaches during a game. Bills HC left. He didn't give 32 points. He found a loophole in his contract. He didn't leave losing. Horton decided retirement was a better option than being a starter. Why are the Browns so much worse?

I like Hoyer, but Brian was let go by three teams New England, Pittsburgh, and Arizona prior coming to Cleveland. At the time, Arizona needed a starting QB. They let Hoyer walk. Why?

A few years ago I changed my opinion thinking teams can't win unless you have a great QB. I watched SF make it to the playoffs with Kaepernick. I saw Seattle go to the super bowl back-to-back winning one with Wilson. I'm tired of seeing Bengals go to the playoffs with Dalton. Will someone please explain Arizona. I keep hearing you can't win until you get a QB. For the love of green grass in the summer, why?

Browns have missed getting a great QB since Bernie. Before Bernie, it was Otto Graham. It is time for the Browns to pursue what they always done. Figure out ways this team wins without a great QB. Manziel, Hoyer, and McCown that below par Brian Sipe?

Here is what I saw last off season and you can go back thru the 15+ years since the rebirth and it bears out what I'm about to say. I don't want this to be a Hoyer thing but more about how to handle a QB, I will use our recent events as examples, but its important to remember this is about handling a QB.

Now I know the boo birds and the know it all's will come poring out of the wood work because they don't see it this way and hopefully I will be able to find Bernie's comments from last fall at some point because what he said was eye opening.

The jist of what he said and what I have been saying since the close of camp last season is this.

When a team picks a starter its all in, doesn't matter if the franchise doesn't believe in the guy behind closed doors at the start of the season its all in. We didn't do that it wasn't just one thing that told me that but the way it was all handled, all the little things that said we really don't like Hoyer, or for that matter going back to as far as I can remember since the re-birth. When Gram or Bernie were the Browns QB they had the full support of the franchise.

It seems meaningless on the surface but by your own example I think zona went thru multiple QB's last season and still did respectable because that QB whomever it was was given the full support of the franchise.

In the Browns case they had this thing that said to me we can't wait to get this guy out of here, we hope he fails so we can just move on. It came from the fans and it was noticeable from the FO and HC. I know that ultimately the failure at the end falls squarely on Hoyer, no questions for me on that front. But make no mistake you can not handle a QB in this manner if you do you see what we have scene for the past what seems like forever. That's where we keep going wrong.

I can NOT stress this strongly enough if this is how we operate and handle the QB's we acquire and play we will continue to lose. Oh we may know short term successes but the long term outcome will always be the same. Failure.

Again this isn't about Hoyer for me its about how we handle the QB position from a support stand point. The position is demanding beyond all belief and 80% of the game is between the ears and a big part of the ability of a QB to relax and just do their job is wrapped up in the distractions that are constantly swirling around the team and them particular its tough. The one thing a FO/ coaching staff and team can do is show real support in public and in private when dealing with the team the player/QB and they can save their true thoughts for private talks between the GM/HC/ owner but all outward signs have to be to support. That is the one constant I have scene play out year after year for the past 15+.

I wished I were a better writer who was able to bring my thoughts out thru examples and well crafted oral commentary that would strike a nerve with folks so they would understand why we keep failing on the QB front but this is as close as I can come perhaps someone else here has that ability, and shares my concern fro not just how they handled the QB situation but how they have handled QB's here is Cleveland for at least the beginning of our rebirth.

This is a follow up piece written after the season that is asking was Bernie right?

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/was_bernie_kosar_right_about_t.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Bernie Kosar: disgruntled ex-employee or right all along?

Back in December, Kosar made waves when he went on Mike Trivisonno's radio show (full interview here) and blasted the Browns following their 30-0 home loss to Cincinnati. It was the first career start for rookie Johnny Manziel and the loss essentially ended any shot the Browns had at the playoffs.

Kosar spent much of the interview taking shots at the Browns' front office and reiterated time and again that, essentially, people within the front office needed to stay in their lanes.

"You need that linear focus of just doing what you're supposed to do," Kosar said in the interview. "If you're a nose guard, you're gonna stop the run. DB, you're gonna stop the wide receivers. If you're a general manager, you're looking at players. If you're a quarterback coach, you're going to coach the guys that they get you and you just stick to that. And [the Browns] do everything else but that."

At the time of Kosar's interview, much was made of what he said as it pertained to the quarterback situation: "The names change, but the way we do things as a culture above them is still the same. ... And until that changes, we're always going to have two quarterbacks that we just manipulate back and forth and throw names in there, but it's not going to be consistently successful."

Revisiting the interview after a week of ugly news -- Mary Kay Cabot's report of punishment looming for Ray Farmer for texting the coaching staff during games and Jason La Canfora's report that paints a picture of a blurred line between the business and football sides of the building -- and it's clear there was much more to it than just helping the quarterbacks succeed. Begin with his take on Mike Pettine's performance:

"He was hired under these set of rules where everybody gets to giggle and laugh and talk about things and everybody is involved in everything," Kosar said, "and he was hired in a tough, tough spot, in a culture above him that's not a football culture. It's not a winning football culture, so it goes above that."

Culture. So many GMs and owners and head coaches and any other number of team personnel love to toss around the word "culture." If Browns fans have learned anything since 1999 it's that culture is really important. Maybe the Browns were making progress on a culture change during their 7-4 start, before the train flew off the tracks and the pressure mounted to switch quarterbacks.

This week has shed new light on the Browns' culture, and it's not pretty.

"This is an obsessive game of high stakes, high competition," Kosar said, "and the feeling of winning is good. But the distaste that those guys -- [Bill] Belichick -- that distaste that they have for losing fuels them to obsessively focus on their job. And you can't expect a 23-, 25-year old kid to know that.

"If they don't see the examples from the people above them, then how are they supposed to know? They don't even know, sometimes, what they don't know, if that makes sense."

Who knows? Maybe Kosar was just being a disgruntled ex-employee. Or maybe he was on to something.

----------------------------------------------
Bernie nailed these buffoons, SAD

Get em tab!!!

Yup and Yup I saw a QB fight the odds and finally succumb to the pressure of the position without the support of the organization he played for.

The losing falls on Hoyer what led to the losing falls on management and you refuse to see it because you just want it to be right and hey so do I so do we all, but its not. Hell man they went so far as to pull JT in the office and ask if they should continue with Hoyer? Really this is how you handle your QB? Whats worse prior to the game it appears in the media.

Then they trot out JF when he isn't ready and should have known he wasn't in any way shape or form ready to play. And now we can all look and say a great deal of damage was done because that entire situation was mishandled but instead of focusing on what led us here we focus on the player and not the decision that led to bad play. How the QB is handled does matter, the level of support the steady consist use of knowledge and sound decisions is clearly missing. That spells dysfunction. You can't pretty that up sweep it under the rug and pretend it was done correctly, because it wasn't.

And while we are on the topic of JF not being ready why wasn't he ready? I think I know but why do you suppose that is? How was that allowed to happen?

I will repeat myself because I think its beyond important and strikes at the heart of whats wrong, and its management. They have set the table to fail because they don't know how to lead and their misuse of the powers they posses has led the team to failure. We blame the player and fail to see what led us there.

After what we saw last season from JF what do you honestly see his value being? Why? Was it wise to start him? forget how he played was it a wise choice? Did it help him? did it help the team, now or in the future? If that doesn't lead to the conclusion that were dysfunctional what does?

Your correct texting the sideline is minor but it gives us all insight on how things are being done. We aren't using our coaches to make choices we are using a FO and in particular and owner who believes he is smarter then the rest of the civilized world and is pulling ALL the strings. I call it dysfunctional you can use a term of your choice, but somethings wrong and until it changes will get more of the same.

When you total everything up it equals what?

That is a fact I love Tabber and he damned well better know it we just disagree its all good.

This stuff just writes itself.....

BTTB,

Yes, I agree FO/HC should have stuck with Hoyer. At the very least waited until officially eliminated from playoffs. Joe Thomas made a similar statement when the debate started benching Hoyer play Manziel.

Was this mistake dysfunctional or rookie error? When they benched Hoyer, Pettine lost 3 straight and offense was stuck in the mud. Pettine tried doing anything he could to revive. FO/Farmer over estimated quality of depth. Injuries took its toll team wasn't equipped.

I saw a good football that couldn't sustained when issues occurred. A football team lacking veteran leadership to push forward. Farmer making attempt this off season addressing leadership issues adding veterans. Can he fill depth with this draft.

I think fans lack patience. There is no quick fix changing culture that produce crap for several years. Banner/Lombardi implemented one thing Belichick does in New England "don't say anything." I'm so tired hearing "it is a process," "be patient," and "three or five year plan." Every fan knows this, but saying it over and over brings false hope when things don't go as plan. Everyone knows there is no perfect plan shut up keep working make things better.

I think part of your point is that we shouldn't be blaming players for mistakes by the FO. This I totally agree with.

If I understand what you are saying here, the management (Haslam/Farmer/Pettine) is dysfunctional to the point of being incapable of making good decisions. I grant that mistakes were made. If the same mistakes were made by seasoned personnel experienced in their respective positions, I would agree that this is something that needs be addressed.

It is a rather unique situation. We had a 3rd year owner, who had spent the first 2 years learning his role with the help of Banner and was now operating for the first time without 'training wheels.' But both Farmer and Pettine were absolute rookies at their jobs. Mistakes are to be expected. I think that much of this 'dysfunction' is really inexperience. If we had a 10 year owner forcing his will in the draft (assuming that rumor to be true), I would be much more concerned. Heck, if after last year he does it again I am concerned. The same with mistakes by Farmer and Pettine. I agree, poor management decisions have done much to create the current situation. What I want is to see progress, not perfection.

I don't think Haslam is as bad as he is being made out to be. By most accounts, everyone likes Pettine and thinks we maybe finally got this one right. I think it then speaks volumes that he was adamant in his praise and defense of Haslam. He wasn't even asked about it. He brought it up on his own. Haslam has been painted as a picture of a meddlesome owner, and it has absolutely snowballed from there. But Haslam gets it. He has repeatedly stated that you cannot win in the NFL without a QB. He has repeatedly stated that he will accept the criticism because until we win, it's deserved. He finally got to put his people in place, and so far he is sticking with them through a pretty rough year. I don't think my memory is playing tricks on me, but everyone wants to credit Banner with the Pettine hire. The way I remember it going down was while Banner was high on Pettine, it was Haslam who pulled rank and said to get it done. Banner wanted to wait on Quinn. And I believe it was in Pettine's introductory conference where Banner uncomfortably mentioned Quinn and implied he was sorry we didn't wait to interview him. I think Pettine is a Haslam guy, not a Banner guy. And I think that goes to the good side of the ledger for Haslam.

At the end of the day, can these guys learn from their mistakes? If Haslam got too involved, can he butt out? Can Farmer stick to his guns? Why can't we give them a chance to show they can? Why is it dooms day because they didn't get it right out of the gate? Do you think it is going to make it worse or better to start all over again?

And I don't really care about the big name coaches and whether they are attracted to come here or not. We've had plenty. They've all bombed. When you don't have a QB, you need to build that stable, consistent environment to eventually insert a QB into. That is our only chance at this point. And these guys need to be given more time to do that.

bugs

No I don't think your understanding what I'm saying here. What I'm trying to say is we lack the kind of leadership that allows a QB to develop and flourish. I said in my response its not about Hoyer its about how we handle QB's.

tab

He swings he misses comes to mind. It falls ultimately on the player but management is responsible for creating the environment for success and yes failure.

For years now you have talked about environment and to you and to most of the folks on this board that is a check list of players needed to succeed what is missing here and like Bugs you fail to identify managements roll in being leaders. When you draft a player or sign a player your roll shifts to make sure the player is doing his job and holding him accountable all while showing thru deed your total support and belief in that player. When all of those ingredients are present you succeed. Its also important to leave Hoyer out because the conversation should have shifted from Hoyer to how we handle a QB.

I couldn't help but notice you didn't touch anything else I said.

W84NxtYrAgain

Its a kind of a theme we have seen play out over and over again and isn't unique to this group that is currently in charge. We lack the leadership at the very top of the organization and it filters down to the players on the field. oh sure we bring in more veteran leadership but that hardly makes up for leadership at the top. Bernie said it "This is an obsessive game of high stakes, high competition," and that means everyone has to work hard and that includes management who are the ones that truly set the tone. You show me poor leadership I will show you losers. But it starts at the top and filters down, its not a down up thing its a top down thing in other words.

Take a moment go thru our roster and look at what we had a year ago and create a check list of what we have in the way of talent then take that list and compare it to the balance of teams within our division, we stack up on paper pretty damned well. Where we lose it is we lack the kind of leadership that fosters success because we are always wrapped up in turmoil, and that is due to poor leadership. Their unsteady and as a result we are unsteady.

Teams that consistently win insert players into their programs and have success, we consistently fail, but when you look at the individual talent we stack up pretty damned well yet we fail. We fail to draft well seemingly, we fail to develop well, we fail to bring in outside talent, we fail to hire the right coach or coaches, but what we don't do is look at what doesn't change and thats the leadership at the top. Same leadership followed by the same results.

rish

There you go Rish your getting there, they all bombed QB/coach every single time, yet we never try to figure out why what is the source of the problem. Every coach every player we have had here were all horrible they lacked the support and commitment from up top to focus on their job and do and be the best they can be.

We are up against teams that have steady leadership that support and facilitate and foster success, they know when to kick someone in the ass and when to pat them on the back they know when to let go and move on they know how to lead and when to lead and when we don't display those attributes as an organization we fail. Mostly becuase those folks do know how and we don't.

I'm going to give you a perfect example look at how the JF thing was handled last season from start to finish. Then look at what is being said now, and ask yourself why? Are we leading JF in a direction that will contribute to success for him and for us or are we leading him to failure?

For me I see failure in JF future but a huge part of the failure is wrapped up in not setting the table for him to succeed to begin with and to further undermine his hoped for success its being widely reported that the Browns are all but done with him. It takes leadership to stand in front of a storm of crap and take a bullet. Last season things fell apart has anyone come forward and said blame me? Leadership does those things, leadership views failures by those they empower as their failure and they take the bullet in fact they insist on taking the bullet because they trust believe in and support those under them, and sometimes that means taking a bullet whether its deserved or not.

What I see is an inexperienced leadership group trying to find it's way out of the morass you have described. I absolutely agree that the Browns have been a nearly rudderless ship since it's return to the league. No combination of Owner/GM/HC/OC/DC has remained in place for more than 2 years (I may be slightly off on this number, but the point remains.) Each new GM brings different appoach to talent evaluation and team formation; each new HC brings a different approach to playing the game; each new OC or DC changes play calling styles, defensive schemes, etc. The constant change of directions has left an unholy mess that the current group has to bring into balance. To recall the rudderless ship analogy, they have to recover control of the ship before they can control it's direction. And of course with their combined inexperience, they have to learn how to sail while they are doing this. It is, in my mind, unrealistic to expect them to be able to do this in 1 or 2 years. I think it will take 3-5 years for them to successfully get this organization onto an even keel. And the option is what, to clean house and start all over again?

Haslam isn't perfect, but unless you can buy the team from him, he's what we got, and he is learning. Farmer has made mistakes, but overall I think he has done more good than bad, and he is learning. Pettine has to learn to manage the play clock better, has to learn how to work with his OC and DC, both of whom are as inexperienced as he is in his job, and they are all learning.

What's bad is that the turnaround will not be overnight. What I find encouraging is that by learning to do this together, by learning from their own and each other's mistakes, they have a better chance of turning this rudderless ship into a truly special voyage.

You know, this is a big step for you.. The first thing on the road to recovery is to admit your problem. Then you can begin the journey to enlightenment.

Good luck, I'll be rooting for you to succeed.

I don't think they learned a damned thing. Based on several things but mostly because they continue to do the wrong thing. Take a look at how they are handling JF as we speak and it goes right back to what they did last season all over again.

They as a group aren't sorry for the whole texting thing there only regret is they got caught and that comes from Haslam, and its a pattern with him thinking that everyone else is stupid and he well he is smart. What it amounts to is the whole Pilot thing all over again its his mode of operation to do the deed and let others take the fall, and it continues I could play along with their learning but their NOT.

Then what it comes down to is that you and I see things differently. Agree to disagree?

The way Shanahan went about things? Like doing the best job as an OC since the return? Actually having a RUNNING GAME for a change? Scoring 16 rushing touchdowns last season? And I'd bet the entire FARM that we would have scored over 20 if Mack doesn't go down. THINK about that. 20 rushing TD's.... I was looking for that number this year. Now I'm not.
Winning 7 games with NO quarterback? A miracle. Shanahan worked a miracle last season. Yeah, I can see why a coach would hate that. Now we are in MUCH better shape. We have a first year OC who's NEVER called plays before. He's brought with him the vaunted RAIDER offense(sure has been effective for them over the years). Yes, MUCH better off. LMAO

Yet anouther year, with yet ANOTHER offense. So no one will know what the hell they are doing again. Team has to learn a new system AGAIN. Instead of learning even more about last years. Being even more comfortable in what they are doing. That would certainly suck. Running the same offense for more that a single year? Not in Cleveland.

The Browns "image" is.... they lose. Period. New uniforms, new statement of "playing like a Brown" means NOTHING. WINNING is the goal. And we are less likely to win with a first year OC and yet another new system. I have to thank the front office and Pettine for running off the ONE thing I enjoyed on the team last year. We had a RUNNNING GAME! We had an OC that knew what the hell he was doing. Our defense sucked. Pettine showed ZERO emotion on the sidelines. But Shanahans offense showed real promise. Obviously that had to go. Can't have promise in Cleveland. No sir.

I will agree to disagree but just so I understand you what indications do you have that they are learning what is it that you have keyed in on that has you convinced their learning ???

bugs


I think I'm on the same page. If they draft yet another QB, why the wasted pick last year? Pick a guy and commit stop wasting picks every year looking for the savior. I would be really disappointed if they go after Mariota another huge investment on a maybe.

I get things don't look promising with Johnny. It didn't look great with the fifty other QBs drafted. Farmer shouldn't be in his position if he missed that bad. It is why Holmgren is no longer. I get the QB spot is vital, but it isn't so important you neglect the other positions until one is found. The Lucks of the world only come once every ten years. All others you chance it and try to develop in three to five years. If that isn't realistic don't draft.

I would counter by asking you what evidence they haven't learned from their mistakes. Essentially nothing has happened to indicate either way. The draft, their chance to show they've learned from their mistakes from last year, hasn't happened yet. There have been no games to text or not text to the sidelines. There have been no OTAs or spring trainings or pre-season games. There has simply been a near complete absence of anything by which to gauge progress or lack thereof. I believe they will learn from their mistakes because that's what most people do. In the absence of new developments, optimists see what can go right and pessimists see what can go wrong. I choose to be optimistic.

both farmer and haslem said it was the format, not what farmer did but the way he did it. they just cant wrap there heads around the HC has to be the one to choose who plays and the play calling.

its really as simple as that.

Link please.

Thank you.

i put them up before. go through all my post to find. its when memp ran away like a little girl. lol

Once again, I disagree. Proof of learning from mistakes is in actions, not words.

So no Link then just made up stuff AGAIN.

I realize he is only picking on me, but how do the rest of you guys tolerate a guy like this? Seriously?

no. the links are there. you had me look up stuff before and then you said to me you knew, and just laughed at me for going through the effort. not doing that again for you lol.

You completely ignored my question as if winning percentage isn't important. We are talking about the Browns who hardly ever win games. We finally get a qb who wins games and you guys want him gone and then REFUSE to discuss the record. That's weird.

Now, let me ask you a few questions. Why was McCown out of the league? Why did Chicago let him walk? What was his record in Tampa Bay? Why did the worst team in football not want him back? How old is he? What is his career record? What is his career qb rating?

Y'all perplex me at times. Like most human beings, I like things in categories. We're all guilty of it to a certain extent. I try to lump you guys together and sometimes I think I unfairly evaluate some of you. I read a ridiculous post like your last one and wonder........is he trying to deceive the public? That is my first thought because so many posters on here are guilty of that. Hell, look at the Gordon and Manziel threads. Poster after poster defended Gordon and were making this moral plea. Yet, they admitted in the Manziel thread that it was all about performance and the human element had nothing to do w/it. 19 and I commented on it and the flavor of the thread changed. LOL.

Bugs, I don't think you are deceitful like so many others on here. I just think you are so hopeful that sometimes you ignore what is staring you in the face. I'm okay w/that. I am not okay w/the deceitful posters. While many of you say I ruin this board, it is my contention that you ruin this board. You hate me because I point out your deceitful ways. I'm good w/that and nothing you can do will dissuade me from exposing you.

You and I don't always get along, but I am not going to allow a lie by Vambo to ride. pblack has some crazy thoughts, but he has provided more links than anyone over the years, and yes, he has already done so. There is NO need for him to have dig them up again.