DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Food For Thought(Middle East)

Swish,

It's hard to get people to understand the Middle East who have never been there. Hell, I'm willing to bet most of the posters on here have never been out the U.S. Their world view is pretty limited. I've spent most of my life outside the country. I've seen hypocracy on both sides, regardless of religion or political view. No doubt if/when the economy collapses, it will be like MadMax out here. You have only to look at what happens after natural disasters or championship games to see the chaos that would ensue. To think other wise is insane.

I know for a fact economics is a major reason for unrest in the Middle East. This is not even a question. Or do people actually think terror groups are so devoted to their cause they'd risk their lives for free?! How many Americans would honestly serve for pure love of their nation alone? Not many. Even suicide bomber's families are paid once the deed is done.

If the Iraqi government offered its citizens money from its oil reserves (like they do in Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, etc), half of its domestic issues would end over night. How do I know this? I've lived in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudia Arabia. My job was to speak with people locally and all over the world. I would ask them this very question. 10 out of 10 would answer economics as the major problem in the country.

Another issue is most of the people in ISIS aren't even from Iraq. If you spoke/understood even a small amount of Arabic you would know this just from some of the propaganda videos alone. I laugh when I hear people who have never been to the Middle East try and speak of it as if they have any real knowledge of the region or its people. All they do is repeat what they heard on the news. It's never that black or white.

All well and good but I have never been to the moon and I can tell you everything about it. I have been to Ocean City Maryland 20 times and don't know squat about it except the nice beaches and restaurants.

Wrong. You can only repeat what you've been told about the moon. Nothing more. There is a difference between knowledge and experience.

This from the guy who interprets from his experiences that our Israeli allies and their Democracy are our enemies, Iran who supports terrorism and is looking to build nukes and is currently nose to nose with our Navy is our friend.

And your experience in any type of international relations are......

Say what you want, but atleast me and Vic have been there. At least other posters, even if eh hey disagree, understand where we are coming from, and have actual valid opinions on the topic.

You, on the other hand, know absolutely nothing.

I compare that statement to the Astronaut who tells the Astrophysicists he knows nothing because I was there!

Bad analogy. Try again.

40, when did you get your degree in middle eastern studies?

All I have left to say on the subject is that only one man ever knew the truth of what I speak and that was Dawg57 who "Mysteriously Disappeared".

Here we go

I serve my country by paying taxes.

Did you really mean to reply to Swish?




If so, pardon me - but if not - that dumb "quick reply" thing has to go.

I can't tell you how many times I read a reply..........wonder what the hell they are talking about, only to later figure out the person wasn't replying to the person they thought they were.

Was I talking to you?

It was a general comment. I appreciate people who serve in the military, but there is more than one way to serve your country.

In all fairness, you don't have to serve your country to be better than Ronald Reagan. You just need to breathe.

I guess right now I don't know who the hell you were talking to, as the reply I am replying to shows you were replying to Swish. Is that what you meant?

It's not tough to figure out. Don't use the "quick reply" unless you mean to.

So you did serve!

Also arch, on a side note when you mention Reagan and Hilary never served.

Thats fine, but that's why i vote democrat. for the most part, yes, liberals haven't served. which is why we are, in general, waaayyy more cautious about using military action than the republican counterparts.

think about it. look at the list of GOP candidates. most of them have never served, and have very little foreign policy experience. yet they are some of the biggest war mongers ever. yet liberals, with the same little experience, are exercising caution at a way higher rate, because the drums of war doesn't need to be dusted off every freaking year.

I only brought up service because, back when W was running for office - his "lack" of military service was a big issue. Even though he did serve in .........national guard? I don't remember exactly.

But yeah, when W was running, his "lack" of service was a big issue.

Odd how that's changed.

I thought it was him dodging Nam that was the problem.

for me it wasn't a big issue.

and you gotta remember, i was 13 when he got elected. i didn't much of an opinion on politics back then. more of "why is there hair right here?"

but looking at history, for me it became an issue with the drums of war being beaten. afghan was cool. but iraq was way too much. because of that, thats why military service is sort of an issue nowadays. his extremely low experience ended up raising the bar for presidency.

J/C .....

"Those with nothing to live for will find something to die for."

NOT just clicking, YTown... and I'll add my own addendum to your post:




...and those who have EVERYTHING to live for- will happily consign (or conscript) others to die for what they want/believe."

just sayin'...

________________

On the thread's subject:

It's hard to know if American citizens would ever behave like impoverished Islamic jihadists, because the situation has never (until recently) presented itself upon our shores. We DON'T have groups rising up to ravage their fellow citizens.

It's an almost given fact that the same socioeconomic conditions that compel young men who live in Islamic states to join jihadist cults are the exact same conditions that compel young American males to join gangs. Swish- if THAT was your basis for starting this thread, then you and I see things eye-to-eye on this matter.

This dovetails into Vers' "The Implications Of Racism" thread all too snugly... in that many of the pressures brought to bear upon the socioeconomically oppressed youth of America mirror the conditions that spawn the next would-be terrorist from Tehran, Bahrain, or Indonesian slum.

Since Human Beings don't change much from millennium to millennium, culture to culture, it's entirely possible that "American jihadists" could pop up at any time- even in our own society.

We need look no further than Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols to see see what isolation, hopelessness and anger can bring. The Sarneyev brothers are a more recent version... and the conditions that prompted all of them to act as they did live within every society.

Here in America, we have a few more safeguards in place... namely, a viable social construct that has been in place for 300+ years, BUT:

There is no guarantee that what we have will keep us safe from the scenario you describe.

Human Beings are Human Beings... and throughout time, they've always managed to find a way to "eff up" a good thing.


Your scenario is unlikely.... but it's not impossible.

Great civilizations have been laid low in the past... and it's a sure bet that they will be laid low again.

We are not immune.


.02

Great post Clem, as usual.

Your points are extremely valid, and the gangs are a great example of how those terrorist groups build.

One thing that seems to really differ is the enforcement of law. ISIS seems to be working in an area that puts very little effort into tracking them down and bringing them to justice. From my perspective at least, they carry out their atrocities, and the only ones who seems to care enough to try to stop them is us.


McVeigh and Nichols are good examples of home grown terrorist like, and what happens when you carry out your illegal agendas. We investigate, we track you down and we bring you to justice. The Boston bombing is another example.

Yes, groups can form and do harm, but unlike ISIS, they will not go unopposed by those seeking to right their wrong, or see justice served.

Now in the case of the collapse of America, no law enforcement or government to handle it, I don't think these groups would be out killing for "a cause". Basically in such a case the US would become very "Walking Dead" like, in that people of like interests would gather to create small communities, while fighting off marauders and invaders.

The reason for killing would be food and property, as it mostly has been in tough times throughout human history, not race or religion.

Not getting into the,"You had to have served to understand" debate, because I've gotten into with Dawg57 on the old board. What bothers me is all that it accomplishes is people having to defend statements based on deep emotions and will never be settled.

I respect that the military people have a completely different understanding after being there. That doesn't mean they can completely discount any statement others make. In this case I really think Victor was addressing that comment to one particular person. I've had these discussions with him in the past and he never discounted all of my beliefs.

On the other point about presidents who never served, I think Clinton was royally roasted for going abroad with a Rhodes Scholarship. He was the first not to have served in some capacity. It was the one point of opposition to his sending troops to Bosnia.

"He never served, he can't possibly qualify as CIC!!"
"Wag the Dog" "He's only doing this to avoid attention on how incredibly devious, awful, satanic and subhuman he is!"

I think that pretty much wraps up the sentiment back then.

Just like John McCain's age was a big issue and Hillary would be what.. a year and a half younger if she wins?

Holy War, it begins...

Islamic Terror Attacks on Christians

List:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/christianattacks.htm

==================================================

Tens of thousands of Muslims flee Christian militias in Central African Republic

Article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afri...f5fb_story.html

However, there are many instances in our country's history when ordinary men stepped up to fight for those things they loved and felt most strongly about. The Revolutionary War ruined many rich men. The Civil War was all about ideals, and many in the North fought for the ideal of freedom for all, despite sometimes fighting against their own family members, and watching their property and homes be destroyed. (especially those close to the battle lines) Many men gave up their lives for the rights of others. Men volunteered for duty in WWII, even before the draft. Middle class men, (well, outside of the depression) poor men, rich men .... all volunteered for service.

Some people step up to help others in times of crisis, and others resort to the most savage of actions. When disaster befalls people in this country ... or even those in other countries .... which people rush to the fore to help out, either physically, or with monetary support ... eve in poor economic times.

I think that the people of this country would do as we always seem to do in times of crisis .... pull together, help one another, and care for one another.

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.


BOOM

Did obama have a lot of military service

Did Jesus speak in Deuteronomy?

There was a Law of God the was in place early in the history of Israel. This Law was to show Israel her sins, and to amplify sins. Why? Because they did not want to come to God for salvation on their own, and in fact, thought that they could "earn" their salvation on their own. So, God used the Law to amplify and increase their sins exponentially. Add in the laws of Moses, and then the laws of the Pharisees and Sadducees, and it became almost impossible to not sin. At the end of the Old Testament, no one heard from God for about 300-400 years. No one heard from His prophets.

Then God sent Jesus. That changed everything. God showed that man could never earn salvation on his own, and then he sent Christ to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

The Old Testament had a purpose, and it is spelled out if you read the entire Bible. The Old Testament was not God's final plan, but rather a vital part of His final plan.

I cant really argue, because none of this actually happened. Its like arguing over the when the Browns won the SuperBowl.

Matthew 26:52-54 - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Exodus 21:12-14 - He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to hold it.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Do you understand what Jesus said in that verse?

Peter, one of Jesus' disciples, grabbed a sword to try to protect Jesus from soldiers who had come to take Him for trial. Peter actually injured one of the soldiers, and Jesus told him to stop, to not embrace violence, because ultimately, violence is a self fulfilling prophesy.

Again, Old Testament.

If I may make a suggestion, read the Bible. All of it. All the way through, from start to finish. Look at the pattern, and the progression.

Once you have done this, you will no longer look at individual verses as messages on their own, but as part of the larger whole. You will see how the Bible progresses, from showing man his sin, convicting him of that sin, and offering man a perfect way out of his sins.

However, I suspect that you will choose to continue to try and cherry pick individual verses that had a time and place, but within the larger plan of God.

and this : But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.