DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Implications of Racism

Growin up, I can't tell you how many times my friends mom would say "these niggaz out here ain't sh**" ( I know I'm pushing the boundaries refs, but im trying to get yhe point across)

We have a lot of mothers telling their sons that. Sisters are telling their brothers that. Friends are telling other friends that.

I never heard anything similar when I got moved to a private school, or working and living around white people. At least not at that level.

Sorry but I want to stress that's my experience. I'm not disregarding or saying halls are wrong, before I get tagged teamed again.

Token has always been used a derogatory term as the only black person in a group of white friends, and they usually allow their white friends to say crazy things the them.

I am asking you a few questions.

When you heard those things were the people in a lower income or could possibly be in poverty?

When you were in private school were those people in lower income or could possibly be in poverty?

Lurker, I'm not going to answer for Swish, but I'll tell you this from my own experience... Socio-economics plays a big factor but just among middle class kids, there is a certain status among white kids to keep up with the richer kids, to act rich, to try to have all of the same gadgets and toys as the rich kids... the stress among black kids seems to be completely opposite, there is a status to act "hood" even if you aren't "hood"... There are black kids in my neighborhood who go to a good school, have great parents, live in a $350,000 home but if you hear them talk in the street or at the pool, they are trying as hard as they can to sound gangsta, to use the slang of the hood, to real downplay all that they have...

I posted some stats a while back about the number of kids from families who rose out of poverty and into middle class.. and the percentage of black kids that end up back in poverty compared to white kids was a big number. I'm not saying they wanted to be poor, it's more like they didn't know how to take advantage of the opportunity they had to keep moving forward...

When I was young my friends and were always a bit afraid that if we weren't careful we'd end up in trouble with some girl.

The guys I work with now don't seem to have a realistic grasp on parenting at all. I remember a while ago the talk about girls having babies so they could have someone that loves them.

I've had more than a couple of 16 year old kids who talk about their kids like they're proud, but they're not even capable of doing anything for the kid. They got pictures, they've got stories and they also got stories about getting it with other girls.

They can't relate to an old white guy like me talking about the future.

Yes and no.

Growing up, yes.

In the military, we aren't in poverty. But blacks were still saying the same stuff.

In private school, I was probably the poorest kid, so no.

Damn! Damn! Damn.

You, rock, and Devil were all over it. ALL OVER IT! That's exactly what I was looking for. Honest discussion. Acknowledging the past while keeping a keen eye on how to improve the future.

And then the thread digressed. It turned negative. Of course, the negativity resulted in more replies. I am NOT interested in a breaking a record for replies.

I AM interested in intelligent and productive conversation. To judge another man by the color of his skin is ignorant. Devil mentioned stuff about blacks moving forward and personal accountability. I would also like to add that whites need to stop looking at blacks as second class citizens who break laws, don't work, don't believe in education, etc. It's a two way street guys.

What I am trying to get at is that if we all would simply judge each person we meet--or read about--as an individual rather than part of some particular group--we would all have a better shot of getting along and improving our world.

I would encourage you all to skip some of the recent crap and go back to what rock, Florida, and Devil said. Florida's post is all over it. That is one smart guy. He is kinda like Clem w/out the political aspirations. Read what he has to say. It's enlightening.

I am a simple man (in more ways than one) IMO all this talk about black and white promotes racism. All this I am a proud white man or I am a proud black man chest beating look at me macho crap needs to stop. We are all men or women and in todays world most of us could care less what color a persons skin color is because it's just not important.

I think it might promote racism in the way that scratching a mosquito bite promotes itching.

I don't think anyone should be forced into a conversation or that absolutely every single person needs to prove that they agree with anything.

Any discussion is bound to cause some disagreement, distrust, resentment or anger.

On an individual basis I agree that a lot of people could careless, but I also believe a lot of people get upset when they see unfairness.

I like being macho at school when I tell some kid that, "It's cool to be white!" and they say, "No it's not!" and I reply, "How would you know?"

It's one of the few times they can't come up with an automatic statement of opposition that even closely makes sense.

It's cool for people to be happy with whoever they are .... and the important part of who they are is on the inside.

I like that commercial campaign Samsung has been running. it's deep if you think about it.

Be together. Not the same.

Good line.

As is, celebrating differences. Or, learning from one another. Be who you are while accepting the differences of other cultures. Those are all cliches, but all make sense.

Another good campaign doing the rounds features an old battle axe sat on a plane sat next to a black bloke. Do a google or YouTube "put racism in the right place".

her face though at the end. priceless.

That should do a lot to help promote solutions rather than furthering the divide.

Well that's advertising Vers. A group of people can see the same thing very differently based on their own background, culture, surroundings, reality.
For me it resonated, certainly enough to recall its message to reference it in this thread several weeks after I first saw it; I found it thought provoking and had some self reflection on it though I've never been in racist situations. I'm an equal opportunity kinda Ahole.
But then I guess I spent 30yrs in the valleys of Wales where the only people of colour were the families that owned the takeaway restaurants. Australia where I live now is vastly multi cultural, there are issues here but nothing like the States of course. I can see how you might find it divisive but for me, it hit the personal accountability note for sure.

I liked it. I think it struck just the right message for me and that is... if we are going to move forward, a lot of people are going to have to do some self-reflection, some inward thinking, and a lot of people are going to need to be made very uncomfortable.

I couldn't stand it. It was a very racist video that was filled w/irony.

That crap didn't really happen. It was staged. They have a well-dressed, humble-looking black guy sitting there minding his own business and an aged, mean-looking, rude, gavel-voiced white woman objecting to sitting next to this well-mannered black man.

The stewardess uses the words "despicable behavior." Yeah right.

The video was racist, all right. But, all the morons got it wrong. It was actually stereotyping of white people.

How the hell does crap like that solve the issues between the races?

We should be looking for solutions rather than assigning blame and creating stereotypes. Sheesh, wasn't that the problem long ago. We're doing it again.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people have that much hate in their hearts that they can't see the importance of uniting rather than furthering the divide.

You just proved DC's point, Vers.

DC said:


This whole "hush hush lalalalalallalal the past lalalalalalalala hush hush" approach by many doesn't work, either.

When you see bad behavior you point it out and correct it. This is what the video does.

I agree. Also. The hero here is the air stewardess....and she's white.
I like to think that the old battle axe at the end is contemplating her actions and the ramifications of it. She looks thoughtful.

Current one doing the rounds in Australia, aimed at racism towards indigenous folk.

Of course, I think that goes without saying.


It's an exaggeration to prove a point. Honestly it probably would have been better if the black kid had NOT been quite so well dressed. Should have been a Snoop looking guy sitting there.


Actually the stewardess is quoting the pilot, those aren't her words.


If you disagree with your view of the commercial you are a moron? Nice. It was stereotyping of some white people. As was noted above, the stewardess is white and she's kind of the hero in the commercial.


It is looking for solutions. It's saying, "If you are this white woman, neither black people nor most other white people, are going to accommodate your bigotry any more, grow up."


It is promoting unity, unity of black people and white people against people like this woman.

In Clem's "watch" thread I went on a bit of a tirade late yesterday about good people (regardless of race, etc.) uniting against bad people (regardless of race, etc.)... this commercial is a great example of that.

FYI - The commercial is a play on an old email "legend" going back like 20 years.

http://www.snopes.com/travel/airline/obnoxious.asp

Here is an interesting article from yesterday. Don't prejudge it because of the site.

link

A black student activist says that when black Americans riot and loot they should be judged like any other race in the U.S. would be, with no “excuses” for “bad behavior.”

Chloe Valdary, a student at the University of New Orleans, said in a Prager University video posted Monday that it’s “racist,” “demeaning and condescending” when black Americans are judged differently.

It’s hard to combat discrimination, she said, partly because “many people feel that they have to treat blacks with kid gloves. They think this is noble, enlightened, progressive.”

“It‘s not,” Valdary asserted. “It’s demeaning and condescending. In fact, it’s racist.”

She offered a personal experience to make her point.

During a discussion in her anthropology class about the fatal police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, the professor, whom Valdary described as having a largely “non-PC approach” suddenly threw objectivity “out the window.”

“When a classmate said, following a debate over the details of the case, that the facts ‘ultimately don’t matter,’ my professor agreed,” Valdary said. “All that matters, this classmate added, is that a ‘black boy was killed by a white cop. Another example of racism in a racist society.”

“So, therefore, riots that followed the grand jury decision not to indict the [white police] officer were the legitimate reactions of people who ‘just couldn’t take it anymore,’” Valdary recalled:

Rioting and looting are acceptable forms of behavior? Why? Because the rioters and looters have no other options? Really? In free, democratic America, you have no other options? Does this apply to all ethnic groups? Hispanics? Southeast Asians? Pacific Islanders? Of course not. But we the enlightened ones are ready with a prepackaged list of excuses when blacks riot and loot. Worse, when it comes to judging black behavior, even facts don’t matter. All that matters is the skin color of the teenager and the skin color of the cop. Well, not in my world.

Valdary accused those who hold blacks to a lower standard of exhibiting racist behavior:

Anyone, whether white or any other color, who excuses blacks for bad behavior just because they are black obviously doesn’t consider blacks their equal. Rather, they view blacks, in effect, as children who are unable to adhere to the standards to which every other group is held. Think carefully about that. The only difference between this view and that of white supremacists is that white supremacists are honest and open: in their view blacks are inferior to whites. Period. But those who condescend to blacks cloak themselves in self-righteousness.

Valdary said that blacks should be treated equally “in every way … not better, not worse.”

Prager University, started by conservative talk radio host and columnist Dennis Prager, noted that Valdary’s video was planned before widespread rioting and looting in Baltimore took hold of the city Monday night.

Outside of her discussion on race in America, Valdary is known for her outspoken support of Israel.

Here is my problem, that is the not the case. When white kids riot they should also be judged in the same manner. When the college kids rioted over the OSU championship game, few months ago, it was ok because they were a bunch of drunk "students". When the kids rioted at Penn state, they were just a bunch of drunk "students". How about the Pumpkin Festival? 140+ arrested in both 2014 and 2013? (throwing bottles at police officers)

These same riots they destroyed/stole property and were not deemed as criminals or thugs. They were called "rowdy" and "students".

I can't speak for everyone but when a crowd gathering becomes a riot and people are injured, property damaged and/or stolen, then they are criminals. I don't care if it is a privileged Christian white pre-school class. commit a crime, you are a criminal.

The motives may be different, but the result the same.

I'm still trying to figure out if you agree with the article or not. I heard plenty of excuses during the baltiwhore riot for why they were rioting. The excuses ranged from poverty, lack of jobs, to mistreatment. It seems the excuses you've offered from another riot are the same lame excuses, with those being drunk and celebratory. They are still commiting crimes and should be arrested and prosecuted.

If you do crime you need to go to jail. We are a society where there are laws and if you break them you need to face the consequences. Without laws we could not function as a society.

With that said fix the issues and laws that is causing a disproportion of people to go to jail and want/need to commit these crimes.

She wants to paint the picture of blacks and whites are on the same playing field, but they are not. Which can be proved by factual data.

Also

please don't take this as an attack

I posted those examples to show the difference the media and the way people perceive very similar events. The media paints this picture that when blacks do it they are thugs and criminals but when whites do it they are rowdy or "students".

Its also interesting that we can get a 150+ post about Ferguson/Baltimore riots but we heard nothing of the other riots OSU, Penn state, heck every college/pro major celebration or loss.(I have been lurking here for a very long time)

Just like the media people on this board perceive things differently.

Injury and property damage should be treated the same, but if the question is do I view a celebration riot differently than a vengeance riot, then the answer is yes.

I'm sure somebody with a psychology degree might be able to explain it in more detail than just "mob mentality"... but I don't understand how you have kids (white and black) who would never think of setting a random car on fire or picking up a bottle or a rock and heaving it at a policeman... but in the middle of a crowd like that, they are able to do it. Sure, in some cases alcohol plays a part but I've been pretty darn drunk in my life and never once has "Hey, you know what sounds like fun? Let's try to flip a car over and start it on fire." crossed my mind.

Is it the feeling of invincibility because you have thousands of like-minded people behind you? Is it the feeling that you can't get caught because you can just disappear into the crowd or because the cops can't possibly catch everybody?

I can't even believe what I am reading from you and others. Stereotyping of any one group is wrong. You should judge each person on their own merits, not on the color of their skin, the color of their eyes, their gender, their religious beliefs, their height, the country they live in, etc.

Sheesh!

If you break the law, you should face the consequences, regardless of race.

It's amazing how many people didn't learn a thing from the mistakes of our ancestors.

I have a solution, it's simple, and I do it every day. I treat people how I want to be treated. I am polite and respectful to most everyone. There are always going to be people that will be rude and disrespectful, but I'm hoping if I set an example, the way I treat people will spread.

Thank you!

It actually works.

Wish more people had your mind-set.

The only "group" I stereotyped was that woman and anybody who thinks like she does... and it was totally based on her merits as a racist... had nothing to do with her skin color or eye color or gender or religion or height or nationality, I lumped her in with bigots and racists everywhere.

In reality, that's pretty much the only thing that consistently works.

________________

In my earlier years, I took a job working next to a stone-cold bigot who actually spat on the floor at my feet the day the foreman walked me onto the job site and introduced us. (The look of utter, unmasked contempt on his face was unmistakable- I'd seen it many times before from strangers on the street.) I gave no reaction whatsoever that day. I didn't extend my hand for a shake, and I didn't return his display of disgust.

Wingate (pronounced: "win-jet") was known as the hardest-working dude in the pipefitter's shop, and prided himself in working his helpers into the dirt. One week on the job with him, and pipefitter's helpers were known to BEG the foremen to reassign them. Dude was cold. And ruthless. And a hardazz perfectionist. And he HATED 'ethnics.' ALL of them. They were lazy, untrainable... and only got their jobs because the government forced the issue.

First week on the job, the only words he'd say to me was "18 inch" (meaning 18" pipe wrench... "24 inch"... "3 lb" (sledge hammer)... and after that, nothing. Just silent, backbreaking, sweat-producing hard freakkin' work. "Grab that- hold on- it's heavy." "Move this over there. No- RIGHT f*ing THERE, dumbass..."

Nothing but compliance from me. No back-talk. No complaints, either to him or the foreman. You see- I was playing the 'long game.' Years in the basement, garage, back yard and moving pianos with My Pops had prepared me for a work ethic like his. Years of talks with My Pops had prepared me to deal with folks like him. My 22 year old azz was gonna break this craggy, crabby, hate-filled sunuvabeyotch down, if it killed me (or got me fired).

Lunch break: guys would sidle up to me with that snarky little smirk on their faces... "How's working with Wingate?" "Fine. It's cool." They'd walk away, deflated. They REALLY wanted to see 'College Boy' crack under the pressure.

At the end of Week Two, Al Schlichter (yep... uncle of the famed/disgraced OSU QB) came to me, and asked me if I wanted to be reassigned. "I'm cool, Al. Me and Phil are good."

Week Three: "Wing-nut" (as he was referred to, behind his back) gets his work assignment, his truck assignment (the refinery was so big, craftsmen actually drove to some of the work sites) and heads back to his station. His work bag and tools are missing. He storms off to the foreman's office, where he's intercepted by me... holding the keys to his truck.

"Bag's in the back, all your tools are packed, and we're already 3 minutes behind, Phil." I tossed him the keys and turned without acknowledging him beyond that. Just left him standing there. When he got in the truck, I was already in the passenger's seat. Foot up on the dashboard. Wearing my hard hat slung low over my eyebrows. And wearing my safety shades-dark version. Str8t-up 'Gangsta.'

I'd been learning his patterns, and was now able to pretty much anticipate what he'd want next. He was methodical in that way. "18- " the wrench is right there. "3 lb-" The handle of the hammer is already extended towards him. "Hmph."

About 45 minutes into the job, he has to take a 'brain break.' The job is thorny, and he needs to reassess. We sit down on the site. A minute passes, and I ask: "So- how's Paul? I haven't seen him since graduation."

"You know my boy?"
"Yup. Shared a bunch of classes with him at Lima Senior. Took Geometry together in Betty Conklin's class...
"That ol' battle axe... my boy hated her."
"Me too... but we took her after-school tutoring classes together, and we both passed the course..."
"I didn't know you knew Paul. He was always a quiet kid..."
(I'm thinking: yeah... with a Pops like you, I'd keep a low profile, too...)
"Yeah... but he was a friend. And he knew everything there was to know about running a stage production. Those Spring musicals would have been a nightmare without him."
"You were on the stage crew?"
"Nope. Pit orchestra. I played cello in The Hole."
"I didn't know that."
"I know you didn't. It's a pleasure to meet you, Phil Wingate."
"Hmmmph."

And this time- dude shook my hand. Because I extended it. First.

Like I said: Long Game.
Some people need time to come around.


**addendum** I worked with Phil on & off for another year. When I got my bid to OM&S, I went around to the tradesmen that I'd worked the most with. Lloyd Cheney, electrician, Hugh Shine, boilermaker, Frank Ball, insulator/painter. When I got around to Phil, he just said: "So- you're gonna spin valves opened and closed on a clock? A monkey could do that. You need a mind to be a pipefitter. Bid the shop next time. You can apprentice with me. Go on- get (tf) outta here." Then he winked. I think I saw a ghost of a smile on that chiseled, craggy face. 'Nuff said.

_______________

Racism won't disappear until bigotry disappears.
Bigotry won't disappear until Human Beings are changed, one-on-one. On a deeply personal level. That takes time. It worked with Phil Wingate... and later, it worked for my Pops In-Law, who has now loved me like a son for 31 years.

Like I said: 'Long Game.'


.02


"Men go crazy in congregations; they only get get better one by one"
-Sting, "All This Time" from 'The Soul Cages'

Clem,

I've had the same sort of situation when working with people in senior positions that happened to be black. One of those guys, who I still use as a reference, I started going to for tech advice when I was training in a Technical Assistance Center (TAC), when I was working for a communications equipment manufacturer. I started going to him as he was one of the most knowledgeable people on the product we both worked. I have mentioned him before as referring to himself as a SE DC n****** born and bred. He is an awesome engineer who's a little rough around the edges, but if you show the same work ethics he has, he's one of those that will assist any junior engineer. After that company folded and we all lost our jobs, his recommendation helped me in getting another job. I hope I can return the favor one day, but I've never been called for a reference for him.

That woman was an actress. Goodness.

Excellent story that drives home the point I was hoping people would embrace.

I actually have a similar story. Difference is that I am a white dude. I get a job working w/brick layers over the summer when I was in college.

I get paired w/this huge black guy w/big white teeth and yellow scleras instead of white. His idea of a long sentence was a grunt or two.

Big Earl had been screwed by the white man for a long time. He was full of resentment, hate, and contempt for all white men. He looked at me the first day while chewing on a toothpick, muttered "sheeeit," now lookie what they send me now." Another [unintelligible remark] but the look of disgust and contempt on his face were true.

We were working on a high rise building. No stairs yet. Just wooden planks combining the subflooring of each new floor. Of course, since part of their pay was based on incentive, Big Earl was on the top floor. 23 stories up. My job was to fetch his mortar. Carry two large buckets filled w/it up all the way to the top over and over and over again.

Big Earl did not yell "18 inch." He would bark out "Mud boy." "Mud boy." I would trek my way down, grab two heavy buckets and work my way back up to him. My shoulders felt like they were coming out of the socket. I'd get up there and he say "what the f took you so long? You costin' me money, boy."

I would ask him to give me more of a head's up instead of waiting to the last minute. I wanted to keep track of the how much "mud" he had left, but I was busy cleaning up trash and other menial chores while he worked.

One day, I started wearing a watch to work. Big Earl looked at me real funny. I started timing how long it took him to use up two buckets and anticipated when he would need more. I got pretty good at it. Big Earl would just snort if I got it there on time. I just know this.......it was real important for me to please Big Earl. Like you, Clem.....I wasn't going to allow his hate defeat me. I was going to prove to him that not all white men [boys, in my case] were the same.

A few times, I got there too early w/the mud. You can't bring mud early because it starts to set. Big Earl took one bucket and heaved it over the wall where it landed 23 floors below. He never even looked to see if guys were walking around. He called me the dumbest f.in N he ever saw.

My only mission was to prove that I was a good person and the hardest working person he knew. When it was time to go back to school, Big Earl finally asked about me playing ball. Said he played back in the day. We went to a local watering hole and proceeded to get drunk. Big Earl actually turned out to have a warm personality. He was not educated, but he was intelligent. We got to talking and I came to understand why he was so surly. He also came to understand that not all whiteys are the same.

Understanding, tolerance, and acceptance are answers. Assigning blame, resentment, and harboring grudges will only fuel the fire of discontent.

It's time to make amends and unite.