DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mike Pettine

"INDIANAPOLIS -- Browns coach Mike Pettine admitted he was miffed about general manager Ray Farmer texting impermissibly during games, and that the trust between the two men has had to be rebuilt. "

Impermissible - Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impermissible
Merriam‑Webster
adjective im·per·mis·si·ble \ˌim-pər-ˈmi-sə-bəl\. : not allowed or permitted : not permissible.

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Pettine benched Hoyer, Mike Pettine is da debil. Farmer didnt resign Hoyer, Ray Farmer is da Debil. Johnny replaced Hoyer, Johnny football is da Devil!!

Glad you said that. So.........would you admit that the FO is indeed interfering w/ the coaching staff by texting them during games and insisting they be part of the film break-down?

Or, is it all LaCanafora's fault. LOL

Wow! More proof of how dysfunctional our FO is.

..was. This "issue" is no longer in play and hasn't been for a while now...

Shut up w/that crap, 32. I'm not in the mood for your BS rhetoric.

You refused to comment on the text gate thing. You said Farmer was innocent until proven guilty. When it was determined he was indeed guilty, you ignored it and when I pressed you on it, you said you moved on. You never once said a negative word about such a despicable act. Yet, you crucified Banner for supposedly [and that was a rumor] for influencing the coaches last year.

That is beyond hypocritical!

Farmer and the rest of the FO has failed thus far. Words mean nothing. Actions do. They blew it last year and their plan this year is odd.

I know you will defend any move they make because that is what you do.

Me? I will judge each move based on it's own merits. And I don't need your biased ass to tell me what is happening.

Now, take a hike.............because I am really tired of how biased you are as a poster.

I'm not planning on going anywhere....God willing and the creeks don't rise.

Wow, I have to disagree with this.

When Farmer took over as GM, the team had no real RB, no WR corps at all, no one to play ILB, and the QB position was a mess. Of course the QB position is still a mess, because that one is going to be harder to repair than the rest, but Farmer rebuilt the WR corps to the point that they were not a weakness last year, the RB corps became a strength, and ILB also was turned from weakness to strength.
(* denotes a starter # is a starter in certain packages))

He added the following players as GM:

*Karlos Dansby: This would have to be a hit
*Dante Whitner: Also a Hit
Jim Dray: For the role he was signed to play, this was also a hit.
Marlon Moore: Hit as a special teams ace.
Glenn Winston: TBD
Shaun Draughn: Decent kick returned
Scott Solomon: Solid kid who looks like he has some pass rush ability.
Ryan Seymour: Decent backup type.
Michael Bowie: Went on IR and never played last year.
Vinston Painter: Didn't play that I can recall
Nick McDonald: Meh.
Karim Barton: Practice squad, IIRC
Andrew McDonald: I don't remember him at all.


Justin Gilbert: So far is a miss
Johnny Manziel: So far is a miss, but was thought by some, myself included, to be a worthwhile risk to take given our dire need at the position.
*Joel Bitonio: Hit
*#Chris Kirksey: Hit
*Terrance West: Hit
Pierre Desir: I'll call this an undecided, because he showed some promise late in the season, and he was our final draft pick. My list, so he is halfway between.

In UDFA, Farmer added:

*#Issaiah Crowell: Hit
Conner Shaw: Men, a 3rd string guy who played almost OK in the final game.
*Taylor Gabriel: Hit
*#K'Waun Williams: Hit
Robert Nelson: Rarely active, special teams guy.

Overall, he missed on his top 2 draft picks, but added solid talent with the rest of his draft, and made some very good adds in UDFA, and in replacing popular veteran players with free agent upgrades. Given that he had 2 firsts and missed (so far) on both, I cannot give him an A, or frankly, even a B ...... but I can give him a solid C for his 1st year, and that isn't bad for a rookie GM who didn't find out that he was going to be calling the shots until mid February.

He has not failed, and he has not succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. He has been somewhere in the middle. Overall he added 8 players who either started, or started in key substitution packages last year. He dramatically upgraded the dumpster fires that he inherited at WR and RB, and dramatically upgraded the ILB position. He had flaws, and made mistakes, but for a 1st year GM, I would say that he did really well ..... except for the 2 1st round picks.

Please tell me what you see as biased in my appraisal.

Now, if you care to do the same with the previous front office's contributions to the roster, we can evaluate them side by side.

It's amazing to me how some folks will just do their best to degrade Farmer. They somehow forget about the Good PLAYERS he's acquired.

They seem to grade him on two 1st rounders that haven't blossomed (and may never)and him texting when he wasn't supposed to.

Just for giggles, does anyone know what he was texting about? Just wondering because I haven't heard!

JC...


I don't really care what happened last year anymore. This is this year, we are 3 days from the draft, the second of the current regime, in which they had little time to prepare last year.

They seemed to do well in the late rounds, and so far not so good in the first round, but both need more time to truly make that call.

What is important to me now, is how we do moving forward. Griping and complaining about the past will never win a championship in the future, and I hope we all agree, changing everything, every year, also will get us nowhere.

If the same people, keep repeating the same mistakes, then we have a problem and need to deal with it. But or now, these are the people running this team, I have no say in that, all I can do is look forward and hope for the best. The only other option is to "Go root for Buffalo" (Which they actually might be a team worth rooting for this year )

I agree wholeheartedly with the 1st sentiment in that sentence but I don't like that little time excuse. Farmer was part of the draft prep team before he was made GM. Additionally the background checks were done for him which either he chose to ignore which is his fault and we will see how that affects his drafting this year. If he draft Gregory at 12, DBG at 19 and LSU Cb Collins at 43 then we know he didn't learn his lesson. If the background check weren't done appropriately last year then those guys should be fired by now.

As far as talent evaluation, with the amount of time that he had to prepare for the draft many of the guys on this board seemed to have put in just as much if not more time and we all have full time jobs and do this as a hobby. So I don't buy that as an excuse for Farmer. I would buy little time as an excuse for Dwight Clark's 1st draft because he was brought into the organization late, didn't know the team he was taking over very well, and wasn't part of the process until last minute (which if I remember correctly was even less time than Farmer had as GM). Unfortunately Dwight proved that even with plenty of time to prepare for the draft that he wasn't qualified.

I hope Farmer show us this year that he can get the job done.

It wasn't an excuse for Farmers drafting, as much as the time for Pet and Farmer to develop a relationship and get on the same page as to the direction of the team.

Having this whole year, I think they are closer to being on the same page as to what Farmer wants and what Pettine wants/needs.

I agree with most of your post but a GM HAS to hit often on first round draft picks to be successful, particularly those higher up the ladder. And not to beat a dead horse, but so far that hasn't happened. But that is only one draft and he could make amends this year while Gilbert improves. Manziel was a Haslem trump card IMO so I don't put full blame on him for that selection.

He hit on other picks too which is what I lean on for hope and optimism. I also like that he'll make a deal to get the guy he wants. He'll just needs a better track record moving forward.

I'm excited for the draft--I have absolutely NO IDEA what Farmer will do. I generally have an opinion or lean towards a couple of players. Not this year, I am in the dark and that is exactly what Farmer wants (not w/ me but with GMs ,of course .!)

I agree that a GM has to hit on more 1st round picks than he misses, and that, so far, Farmer has failed in this regard.

When we drafted Manziel, I said that it was a boom/bust pick, and that there was unlikely to be a middle ground with him. I understood why he took the risk, just as I understood why we took the risk on Weeden. We don't have a QB, and if we don't have one, then we are on the lookout for one. I cannot really blame a GM if he uses an "extra" high draft pick to take a big chance on a QB. We don't have a QB, and until we do, we will be on the lookout for one.

Man, it is so hard to even find a QB the caliber of an Andy Dalton ... a guy who is just good enough to get you beat consistently in important games. Finding a franchise guy is a real crap shoot. Plus, sometimes it takes the right guy combined with the right staff for a guy to have any success at all.

Man, looking at the QBs drafted in the past 10 years, and there just aren't many good ones. Let's look:

2014:
1 3 Blake Bortles QB Central Florida Jacksonville Jaguars
1 22 Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M Cleveland Browns
1 32 Teddy Bridgewater QB Louisville Minnesota Vikings
2 36 Derek Carr QB Fresno State Oakland Raiders
2 62 Jimmy Garoppolo QB Eastern Illinois New England Patriots
4 120 Logan Thomas QB Virginia Tech Arizona Cardinals
4 135 Tom Savage QB Pittsburgh Houston Texans
5 163 Aaron Murray QB Georgia Kansas City Chiefs
5 164 AJ McCarron QB Alabama Cincinnati Bengals
6 178 Zach Mettenberger QB LSU Tennessee Titans
6 183 David Fales QB San Jose State Chicago Bears
6 194 Keith Wenning QB Ball State Baltimore Ravens
6 213 Tajh Boyd QB Clemson New York Jets
6 214 Garrett Gilbert QB Southern Methodist St. Louis Rams

2013:
1 16 EJ Manuel QB Florida State Buffalo Bills
2 39 Geno Smith QB West Virginia New York Jets
3 73 Mike Glennon QB North Carolina State Tampa Bay Buccaneers
4 98 Matt Barkley QB USC Philadelphia Eagles
4 110 Ryan Nassib QB Syracuse New York Giants
4 112 Tyler Wilson QB Arkansas Oakland Raiders
4 115 Landry Jones QB Oklahoma Pittsburgh Steelers
7 221 Brad Sorensen QB Southern Utah San Diego Chargers
7 234 Zac Dysert QB Miami (Ohio) Denver Broncos
7 237 B.J. Daniels QB South Florida San Francisco 49ers
7 249 Sean Renfree QB Duke Atlanta Falcons

2012:
1 1 Andrew Luck QB Stanford Indianapolis Colts
1 2 Robert Griffin QB Baylor Washington Redskins
1 8 Ryan Tannehill QB Texas A&M Miami Dolphins
1 22 Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State Cleveland Browns
2 57 Brock Osweiler QB Arizona State Denver Broncos
3 75 Russell Wilson QB Wisconsin Seattle Seahawks
3 88 Nick Foles QB Arizona Philadelphia Eagles
4 102 Kirk Cousins QB Michigan State Washington Redskins
6 185 Ryan Lindley QB San Diego State Arizona Cardinals
7 243 B.J. Coleman QB Tennessee-Chattanooga Green Bay Packers
7 253 Chandler Harnish QB Northern Illinois Indianapolis Colts

2011:
1 1 Cam Newton QB Auburn Carolina Panthers
1 8 Jake Locker QB Washington Tennessee Titans
1 10 Blaine Gabbert QB Missouri Jacksonville Jaguars
1 12 Christian Ponder QB Florida State Minnesota Vikings
2 35 Andy Dalton QB Texas Christian Cincinnati Bengals
2 36 Colin Kaepernick QB Nevada-Reno San Francisco 49ers
3 74 Ryan Mallett QB Arkansas New England Patriots
5 135 Ricky Stanzi QB Iowa Kansas City Chiefs
5 152 T.J Yates QB North Carolina Houston Texans
5 160 Nathan Enderle QB Idaho Chicago Bears
6 180 Tyrod Taylor QB Virginia Tech Baltimore Ravens
7 208 Greg McElroy QB Alabama New York Jets

2010:
1 1 Sam Bradford QB Oklahoma St. Louis Rams
1 25 Tim Tebow QB Florida Denver Broncos
2 48 Jimmy Clausen QB Notre Dame Carolina Panthers
3 85 Colt McCoy QB Texas Cleveland Browns
4 122 Mike Kafka QB Northwestern Philadelphia Eagles
5 155 John Skelton QB Fordham Arizona Cardinals
5 168 Jonathan Crompton QB Tennessee San Diego Chargers
6 176 Rusty Smith QB Florida Atlantic Tennessee Titans
6 181 Dan LeFevour QB Central Michigan Chicago Bears
6 199 Joe Webb QB Alabama-Birmingham Minnesota Vikings
6 204 Tony Pike QB Cincinnati Carolina Panthers
7 209 Levi Brown QB Troy Buffalo Bills
7 239 Sean Canfield QB Oregon State New Orleans Saints
7 250 Zac Robinson QB Oklahoma State New England Patriots


Man, out of all of these 5 years, how many QBs, that we had a real opportunity to draft, would you want? Not many, I would guess.

It is really hard to find a QB, and that position makes or breaks NFL GM and NFL after NFL GM, and NFL coach after NFL coach.

I know it's a crazy merry go round. Our front office said they aren't putting as much emphasis on the qb position and perhaps instead will continue to build a better team as a whole. I know we took a shot last year and thus far missed. It would seem like desperation to reach for a qb in the draft again this year, I don't think they will. I look at the successful organizations in the league, yes they have good qbs but they also have good coaches. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? I hope we got our coach like a Belichick or a Cowher and the quarterback will come once there is a better team to play around him. I want off this crazy merry-go-round.

Can we go more than a game deep in the playoffs without an upper level QB though?

Let's look at the QBs in the past 5 years Conference Championship games:

Tom Brady
Andrew Luck
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning


10 games, with 20 starting QB spots, and a total of 9 QB played in them combined. Now we could also say that the coaches did not change either, as most of these teams have the same coach during this span as well.

I dunno. I guess that my position would be that if you think that a guy is a franchise QB, then you have to go get him no matter what it costs. If you have doubts, but you feel it is a 80-90% proposition, then maybe you go get him if the price is not too outrageous. Other than that, you throw pros[ects against the wall and see if anyone sticks.

I appreciate your opinion, but I don't agree.

There are the main reasons for my opinion:

1. He passed on Teddy for Johnny. That is inexcusable in my eyes.

2. Gilbert was picked 8th and has been worse than even Johnny. At least Manziel gets some support from his teammates and coaches. Gilbert gets ripped by everyone.

3. Farmer knew that Gordon was going to be suspended, yet he passed on a lot of very good WRs last year. Now, he is still scrambling to compile WRs.

4. I think alienating coaches is a fail.

5. I think texting the sidelines constitutes as a fail.

6. I think him and the team president attending film breakdown sessions is whacked.

7. It bugs me that he wasted some of the moves that the previous regime made by trading up for Manziel. People never seem to remember who acquired the extra draft picks and who traded them away.

I agree w/many of the points you made. He certainly has done some good things. Bittonio, Kirskey, Williams, Crowell, getting an extra first round pick this year. All good stuff.

We don't have to agree. I have no problem w/that, but I hope I am allowed to voice my opinion w/out being attacked by hordes of posters and then have them turn around and blame the demise of the board on me when I try to defend my positions.

I try to never attack anyone who presents their ideas in a fair and reasoned approach, as you just did. As you said, we agree, and disagree, and that's allowed to happen.

Thanks.

For the most part I agree.

Re: #3 - As stated here I agree, but in other places you criticize not taking Odell Beckham Jr. I don't remember anyone having him as a top 10 draft pick pre-draft. Though I really think that the plan was to drop back and draft Evans. But then TB took him and got Farmer all flustered. No evidence, just my opinion. I think the plan was good in idea but turned into an epic fail becasue he then panicked and traded up to make sure he got Gilbert.

#6 - I think if done right breaking down film with the coaches is a good idea. The coaches should be leading and stating we need an ILB that can do this or a RT that can do that. This lets the GM know what he needs to do to improve the team. If the GM is taking the lead then that is whack. We don't know how that went down.

The good stuff: I have trouble giving the GM full credit for UDFA's. Yes they should get some credit because they signed the guy but signing an UDFA really comes down to the UDFA picking the team he and his agent feel he has the best chance of making the roster. So the credit is more on the UDFA than the GM IMO. If the GM was that high on the guy then he would have drafted him.

Good post.

Point 1: I certainly did not have Beckham Jr. being picked in the top 10. I talked about him early on, but as soon as I saw he moved from a second or third rounder to a first rounder, I backed off. But again, I was not aware of Gordon's suspension. Farmer was. I will say that my top WRs were in this order..........Beckham Jr, Jordan Matthews, and then Sammy Watkins. With all that said, you made a good point about none of us having Odell in the top 10.


2. I respectfully disagree w/your take on having FO personnel break down film w/the coaching staff. I could see them all getting together in the off-season, but not on Mondays. No freaking way do I want the suits around me when I wanna be constructive. Administrators and real-live workers [coaches in this case] think differently.

3. I can give them credit for the undrafted guys. They picked them and were productive. I have no problem giving the FO credit where it is due. If anyone remembers, Crowell was my guy in the Sleeper thread last year. Loved when Farmer acquired him. And we gotta admit, Williams was a true find. That kid is fundamentally sound, has good discipline and decent instincts. He's a player.

We don't have to totally agree, but I like the way you presented your argument.

The receiver I wanted was DeVante Adams at the pick we took Manzeil (I would have taken Teddy at #8 instead of Gilbert - If you remember I was all for the tank for Teddy philosophy). So I would have made the trade with Buffalo, drafted Teddy at #9 then Adams at twenty whatever and still had those extra picks we traded to move up.

I give Farmer the utmost credit for Bitonio. He wasn't even on my radar but he was a tremendous pick.

We probably won't ever agree on the film breakdown completely. I think that it's important for the FO to know what the coaches need from players then it is the FO job to go find those players. There needs to be a good line of communication to explain that and I can see the FO folks sitting there watching and listening as a good means to figure that out. Though I totally agree that if they play too active a role it could be detrimental.

Again, I give the FO partial but not full credit for the the UDFA

Here is why I think it could be a really good idea for the GM to be in the film sessions on Mondays:

He knows, from week to week, what the team weaknesses are from a coaching standpoint, and Farmer has the ability to see why the coach says why he sees a weakness, why he wants a certain type of player, and gain a greater perspective as to how the coaching staff thinks. Let's not forget that Farmer didn't hire Pettine. He became GM after Pettine was hired, and he may not be (and probably isn't) as familiar with Pettine's schemes and such as he is with those of other coaches he may have worked with in the past.

Now I don't want Farmer taking over by any measure, but if he is taking the approach of better understanding the coaching staff, the way they want players to play, and the kind of players they want, then it seems like it could be a good idea to me.

The bottom line is you need guys to stay in their lanes and you also need to have healthy collaboration. It's common sense. It's not like these guys should never talk again after the first whistle of game 1.

You've coached and I haven't. So you know better what a coach is willing to deal with on Mondays. You also know better how they think compared to the rest of us.

I just wanted to say that I do see the VP as a "suit". However, I don't quite see Farmer as merely a suit. He did play. Somehow I think that makes a lot of difference. Maybe it doesn't, but I think that makes a difference compared to merely a suit who's been around football operations only as an executive.

In that regard he is a "football" guy who played three years as a LB with the Eagles and managed to go on to get a gig as an GM/evaluator. I see Farmer as a LB in a suit. Certainly not a coach, but as a former player he should understand that the coach knows things he'll never understand. Just like when he played.

GM's and coaches are both evaluators. They should be able to learn from each other if they each stay within their respective job descriptions.

On the other hand, she had a wart. lol

What I meant to say is that on the other hand we who have never been involved in either capacity may be naive to the matter so go on to paint a picture of how we think it should be rather than the reality of it. I can buy that.

I think being a former player doesn't really mean much. It doesn't mean he can coach or call plays. Neither the coaches or players need a wanna be coach telling them what to do. Coaches coach and front office people evaluate and get players.

You're right. Being a former player by itself doesn't mean much. But, Just because he's a GM doesn't mean that he couldn't coach or call plays, either. How do you know what the coaches and players want, or how they see Farmer?

Why does it have to be either/or? Bill Belicheck is coach and de facto GM of the Patriots. No one complains about him doing both (perhaps they should). Why pigeon hole yourself? If you can add to the conversation what does it hurt?

I see Shanahan as the one not fitting in with the rest of the organization much more so than Farmer. I liked Shanahan's offense and concepts, but he never seemed to mesh with Pettine. We'll see how it plays out.

We agree on many things, disagree on others. No big deal. It was civil.

I see what you are saying. I am just skeptical of their intent. After reading what Shanny had to say, the texting thing, the controlling of playing time, the FO not getting the players the coaching staff wanted, the drafting of Manziel when apparently Teddy and Carr were thought of more highly.........well, I can't say that Farmer and Scheinder or whatever his name is attended the meetings to offer assistance to the coaching staff. It seem more like forcing their opinion on the coaches than anything.

That is a good point that Farmer was a player.

ddbub, I know that a good percentage of people wanna act like Shanny was the idiot, but man, the things he said about the Browns and how he laid it out to Haslam......well, I don't think he made that stuff up. I really don't.

I do not wish to start arguing w/the rest of the board about that again, but bro........that is my message to YOU. No way he made all that stuff up. It happened.

I am hoping that this is not the case. Since both Farmer and Pettine report directly to Haslam, and are considered parallel positions, I would hope that it is a case of the GM wanting to know the schemes better so he can better supply the proper players. That is a sensible thing for a GM to do, so I would hope that Farmer has sense.

If he goes into those sessions dictating terms to the coaching staff, then he should be out on his head.

As far as the who was wrong between Farmer and Shanahan, I think you have to look at the end result (obviously texting during a game was wrong). Shanny's gone and Farmer's still here. While Farmer's texting was given a verbal wrist slap by Pettine (what else was he going to do), I've never seen a hint of animosity between Farmer and Pettine or really anyone and Farmer. On the other hand, I haven't really seen, heard or felt the vibe that anyone inside the Browns' building is sad that Shanahan is gone. He struck me as the pampered son of an NFL coaching legend who while bright in x's and o's, rubbed people the wrong way. It's like he felt being an amazing coach was his birthright and he knew better than Pettine what the team/offense needed/should do. I think Pettine/Farmer were on the same page and Shanahan was doing his thing. I think the texts were Farmer trying to figure out what the disconnect was. I have no evidence for this, but I don't have any evidence of Farmer giving orders either. To me this is the more logical version of why the Browns would have done what they did. I could be way off base/projecting/whatever but those are my thoughts.

...Yes, I could be a conspiracy theorist in my down time.

Pettine said in his combine press conference that he "wasn't thrilled" with Farmer. I am sure that is the PC version of how he actually felt.

I like that Pettine was honest about that. It seems to me they've worked it out and are moving forward.

That's the verbal slap on the wrist I was referring to. Are you sure that he felt more harshly than that? What is he supposed to say? I would've done the same thing in his position? The NFL would have loved that and would have let us off without losing draft picks. If my scenario had played out, I could see the NFL being more lenient towards that. If it was the other version, I definitely think we would have been punished more severely by the league.

I don't know what happened behind closed doors. I do know that Pettine's nickname is "Blunt Force Trauma" for a reason.

I have never been a coach, but from what I have read coaches live this job. If I was A coach I would not want a wanna be part timer telling me my job. If Ray wanted to be a coach he could have gone that route instead. He needs to spend his time evaluating players and whatever else GMs do. Now I am not saying that he should not meet with Pettine to discuss players and the roster, just that he should not interfere with the coaches.

Belicheck is the exception to the rule, and I would think he has others doing stuff that a gm would do. No one can do it all as both jobs are very time consuming.

You either know football or you don't. Farmer is not a part timer. He probably puts in more time than Pettine as he has more players to evaluate during the offseason in addition to his during the season duties. A coach isn't just someone who knows a lot about football, the most important part of being a coach is the ability to teach. I don't know if Farmer has that, and I don't want him on the practice field trying to show players technique. But if he sees something, it probably has some value. I can hardly imagine the amount of tape he has to have watched in his career. Having watched all that tape, he's probably been exposed to more concepts than Pettine and may have ideas that Pettine hadn't considered. The Head Coach of a team focuses primarily his players and a week or two before each matchup will look at that opponent. The GM has to follow the entire league during the season and during college football all 128 FBS teams plus smaller schools and international prospects. To me the GM has a broader view which can be benificial to the HC's more focused approach.

I'm sure some are going to call me an apologist for the FO but hey, whatever. I know you've been pretty dawged about how dysfunctional the organization is and you've clearly spelled out why you feel that way. Personally though, when I look at the net outcome from over a year and a half, IMO the team is much stronger than we were back then and here's why:

1) The roster. As a whole, this is a strong roster and at a minimum provides us with the foundation that's been missing for years. Going in to this draft these are our NEEDS: stud QB, stud run stopping DL, stud pass rushing OLB, stud WR, O-Line depth and I think that order is pretty accurate... oh yeah, and a kicker. Sweet Lord we need a kicker! While the stud QB seems to be our White Buffalo, the rest aren't going to be difficult to come by. Come Draft Day 2016, we realistically could only have one NEED, that being QB because everything and everyone else will be in place. We've never had that since 'the Return'.

2) Even though I'm not really a Manziel fan, the general consensus is that it takes QB's and CB's 2-3 yrs to 'get it'. Going by that consensus I'm not ready to say that their lack of a contribution in their rookie years has set the franchise back.

3) WR's: I disagree that Farmer is scrambling this year for WR's. I distinctly recall last preseason when many posters were virtually burning Eotab in effigy for going against the grain and saying that the prototypical #1 WR was not necessary to have a functioning offense and that we'd be ok with what we had. I also distinctly remembering that by Week 4 that his position had been vindicated because it was clear that our sub 6'0" WR corp was not a problem. This year we needed to replace Austin. So we did. My personal evaluation from last season is that I don't think Benjamin makes the roster this year, so he needed (potentially) replaced as well. At worst our WR situation is a wash.

3) Shanny left. On one hand we have a pretty good OC out the door after one season. But the fact of the matter is, he's at a point in his career where he is at the cusp of getting his HC gig. But until he does, he'll always have one foot out the door looking for that opportunity and because of that he just simply is not going to be a good fit for a rebuilding team who needs continuity.

Now in his place we have a rookie OC. The downsides are obvious but I think there are some upsides that will mitigate them. 1) He's NOT on the cusp of a HC gig. If Pet is here 3 more seasons, Flip likely is as well (unless he totally bombs). THAT is continuity. Furthermore, he's realized that we do have somethings in place already, such as a run game that is quite good. He's not tossing it in the trash because he thinks he has a better idea. He sees that what's in place works and there's no good reason to get rid of it. That is continuity.

4)The texting, the meddling, etc... I agree... fails all around. But again, look at the net effect. I stated earlier that I think Pet is the kind of guy who will give you the rope to hang yourself if you really want to and I think that's what he did with Farmer and maybe even to an extent Haslam. When he sat down with Farmer, (and I'm sure to some degree Haslam) I wouldn't doubt that he said something to the effect that he just coached the team to a 7-9 season... beyond nearly everyone's expectation. But 7-9 was a failure because the team SHOULD have been 9-7, if not 10-6 and in the thick of the playoff race. But their meddling, the text messages, the refusal to support Hoyer, MAnziel on the roster.. let's be honest, Manziel really didn't have any business being on the roster. Yeah the reports were that he was "working hard" and wasn't a distraction at practice.. IMO that's just smoke and mirrors. If it were true a) he would have been better prepared when he did start, and b) the team would not have played their least inspired football of all season with him behind center.

Coming up short for the season really had little to do with coaching and player talent. It was the meddling. Now maybe we ended up with Flip because no experienced OC in his right mind would come here, it's possible. But even so, Pet managed to retain key staff and he brought in HIS guys. Pet now owns this 100% going forward. He's got 2 young coordinators who need several seasons to establish themselves (continuity) and who have bought in to his unified concept for the team. He's got a roster of players that have also bought in to this concept and when we have so many UDFA's who have made some very strong, legit contributions... he's got credibility.

My guess (hope) is that this season we hear little from Farmer and even less from Haslam. So far it seems to be shaping up this way. I hate that we had to go through this nonsense to get here, but Pet appears to be savvy enough to have solidified his power base.