DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... How Men Value Independence in Wives — and Daughters

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Interesting chart, Love the disclaimer at the bottom *among heterosexual men. lmao!!

Anyway. I would have Independent rated above intelligence. for some reason i believe intelligence is relative. There's a lot of women who play dumb just to stroke a man's ego. Gotta take that into account.

Kinda like the, "CAUTION Coffee is HOT" on the McDonalds cup.

I think that if I had to choose only 3, they would be:

Intelligent
Principled
Attractive

I would add in a twisted sense of humor so she would laugh at all of my really stupid jokes, and patience to put up with my screw ups.

I think that a principled woman is a strong woman. so those 2 overlap for me. I think that an intelligent woman will have some degree of independence. To me, attractive contains aspects of being sweet and nurturing. So, they kind of overlap, and I can contain the other important ones within those 3. (from this list)

Now, why would men rank attractiveness lower for their daughter than their wife? Because they can choose their wife, but they will love their daughter no matter what her physical appearance is.

Anyway, that's how it seems to me.

Interesting.

For my wife:

--Intelligence was number one. I did not want some bubble-gum blowing, lip-stick smearing, bobble head as a life-long partner. I wanted someone I could converse w/about meaningful topics and I wanted her genes to pass onto my children.

--Morals were important to me. I wanted to marry a good person who cared more about others than herself.

--Attractiveness was kinda important. I didn't need a beauty queen, but I liked that I could wake up in the morning and see my wife w/out make-up and not be repulsed.

I think that being independent, strong, and principled are offshoots of being intelligent and having good morals. They are all important. They are strengths and can sometimes be a pain in your ass. LOL

For my daughter: The same qualities apply, except I did not care about how attractive she was. Of course, she ended up being beautiful.......I mean extremely beautiful and that caused issues in and of itself.

My daughter is extremely intelligent. She was in the 99th percentile in all standardized test scores when she was in school. She even has street smarts. She is extremely strong minded and principled. She can be independent......still not married at 29, but sometimes has allowed others to monopolize her time. She is too nice at times. She is really a great person and I am so proud of her. I thank my wife for that.

For you young guys...........heed those words. Choose wisely when picking the mother of your children.

picking 2 or 3 is hard

I'd go with:
Principled
Independent
Intelligent

When people ask me what I'm looking for, first thing I say is good person.

I have dated too many women, and have too many friends of both sexes that need someone in their life - I don't want someone who needs someone, but rather is comfortable with themselves and wants someone to share their life with. Independence is an incredible sexy trait to me.

Intelligence is important to me, I need mental challenges outside of work, someone who make me think, someone I can learn from every day.

Strong and sweet would probably go next. I assume that they mean physically when they say attractive - I think it is a package deal - someone who is pretty but has a mean personality, is a bad person, etc... is not attractive. Assuming they mean physical, Attractive matters sure, but as time progresses end looks and body fade - and in the vast majority, well before intellect.

Should add columns for Sane, Non-Violent, Good Temperament, Even Keeled (no mood swings), Not Spoiled, Not Pampered and Not Pouty.

I've see some sweet women rage, strong women break and intelligent women act dumb and I'm okay with all of that; BUT a crazy, mean, evil, hormonal, spoiled, coddled, pouty witch of a woman will drive you nuts!

Sorry Honey!

What drops and increases in the comparison absolutely sickens me.

Why? It actually seems to make sense to me. Not saying I agree with all of it but the trends do make sense.

You want your wife to be intelligent and hot.. with a fair amount of Principled, independent, etc.

Look at the things they want in a daughter, exactly the things that will make her smart enough and strong enough to stand up to a guy like you used to be.

I do wonder though, how many of the men surveyed were already married because I could see that impacting the answers... it's like the old saying, guys want a woman who knows all the tricks in bed, he just doesn't want to know where she learned them.... and that wife you want to get freaky with, well that was some fathers young daughter once.

Oh, the trends and everything do make sense. It's just I can't believe the rift. You want your daughters to grow up to an ideal, but then when they reach married age it all changes. Such a whirlwind of change.

We need strong human beings in this world. I'm not just talking physically strong. Strong intellectuals, strong emotional supports, and dedicated individuals such like that are needed in this world.

Looking to find someone who is subservient, a trophy to look at, needy beyond belief, and aloof are by no means what I desire in a lady. Personality, personal career goals, independence, intelligence, wit, and dedication trump all for me. Physical attraction plays into it, but the aforementioned traits are just as important as an individual's physicalities.

The chart is definitely intended to demonstrate a double standard when men think of women's roles.

I'd be interested in seeing something differences for women's ideals for husbands and sons.

I just see it as different perspective, and stage of life.

One, the daughter, is someone you raised and care for and, in most cases, can do no wrong by you. You loved her and helped guide her into the person she is. You perceive her by the decisions she is making on her own as an individual.

The other, the wife, is someone you had to grow to know and love, and accept them for the way they were when they came to you. Someone you loved differently, and looked at differently. This is someone whom you work in tandem with to make decisions, accomplish tasks, navigate the daily struggles of life.

jc

I look at it more face value, men want a subservient wife, who is hot and will laugh at their jokes and men want to hold all the power. Why would a men want their daughter like that? It really comes down to men being chauvinistic pigs.

I will be honest with guys I am at heart chauvinistic on many things, good and bad. Like I will do all manly things in life for my wife and refuse to do things I deem womanly. However, my wife is very independent, very strong willed and very principled. This has created many fights (which I have lost just about all of them).

One of the biggest thing I love about my wife is the fact that she is independent and has her own mind, why would I want to control somebody, that seems annoying. My wife keeps me honest and makes me a better man.

The interesting things is now that I have a daughter I have changed being so chauvinistic because I can't imagine my daughter listen to some jerk telling her what to do.

My wife is intelligent, which I love. She's still working on being independent and strong thanks to her overbearing parents who ruled her life until I stole her from their tight clutches. I have always tried to encourage her to do what she wants and take control of her life. It has been interesting to watch her transformation over the last 10 years, I'm proud of her for realizing and embracing her independence. She still caves way too easily in giving me things I want, so I basically end up arguing with myself at times in an attempt to get her to put her foot down. I could still walk all over her if I wanted to, but I have no desire to.

So... we want hot, loyal and adequately intelligent spouse and homely a$$ kickers for daughters? Lol. I have a saying that having a daughter makes a nascent feminist out of the hardest of men. Or an equalist anyway.

I think the +/- trade off for the spouses reflects good old fashioned insecurity. Nothing major. Pretty natural human stuff. A strong-minded and self determined wife/girlfriend can be very unnerving for many men. I'm heartened that the intelligence and independence numbers for spouses are as high as they are frankly.

I've always liked strong, smart women. But I had 5 strong sisters growing up, 3 of which own their own successful businesses now. I've always wanted a true partner, someone I could talk to and reason on level with. I've dated a few women in my time that were smarter than I was. I mean in the raw mental horsepower sense. I guess that's not saying much.

I worked with a guy a few years ago who had the WORST take on women I've ever known. He would confide that he simply could not take any woman's opinion seriously. That at work or in anything serious all he could think was "SHUT UP!" whenever they were speaking about things he felt women couldn't hold up on. He also said he wanted nothing to do with any woman who thought of herself as his equal. He would launch into these "people need to know their place" and that "men built the world and women just live off of what men produce and create" diatribes. It's probably not surprising that he didn't maintain too many long term relationships while I knew him. I have a brother in law who produces a few reality TV shows who has a similar if not quite as extreme feeling. Always refers to women as "stupid b...ch" and "dumb wh...e" when not in the presence of women. What's strange is they've been married for a lot of years and she's not a total submissive lap dog. They're both super conservative and she doesn't work and takes care of the kids and does the traditional home-maker thing but she's no shrinking violet. Anyway, I finally told him to knock it off when around me, I hate that crap. I suspect a lot of men feel like this. It's asinine and so obviously comes from a place of damage, fear and insecurity. But you can never get people to face things they don't want to, or challenge a crutch that makes their world simpler or more comfortable. I pretty much know I could never really be friends with either of them. That's a pretty fundamental personality block.

Just a few comments:

I think that people are reading too much into this list, quite frankly.

A father will love his daughter no matter what. He wants the best for her, and wants her to be successful and in control of her life 100%. He is not as worried about what she looks like, because, quite frankly, he is not going to sleep with her. Unless there is something really screwed up with the man, he is not going to look at his daughter the same way he would look at his spouse.

The first thing we see is someone approaching us, and we often either accept or disqualify that person in those 1st 10 seconds or so. If you don't think that this applies to women as well, watch how a woman reacts when a man who is not her "type" approaches her from across a room. I have seen men shot down with a dismissive "Not interested" before they got "Hi" out of their mouths. (OK, and it has happened to me too, if I am being completely honest) A person looks at another person, and makes a ton of snap decisions based on the way that person looks, the way they are dressed, carry themselves, and so on ..... but these are all physical aspects of how we present ourselves to others. Go to a bar sometimes and watch men approaching women, The filters are often at full strength, and a woman is prepared to blast a man's greatest hopes to pieces in a matter of seconds. Now this is not all women ..... but it is some.

I have also seen women I know shoot down guys for what I considered to be no good reason at all. I have seen women shoot down a guy they work with because "He just wasn't right" for her. I have sometimes asked "What wasn't right", and it is usually something weak like "I just didn't feel right about him", or "I got a bad vibe", or some other excuse to disqualify the guy. Sometimes I have tried to play matchmaker, and have told the girl that the guy is really smart, with a decent position, is nice, and so on .... and she still insists that the guy just isn't right for her. She isn't attracted to him for physical reasons, but she just doesn't want to appear on the level of men who make those kinds of judgments, so she creates other reasons. I have several good friends who are women who have confirmed this for me as well.

While our society allows men to be more overtly honest about their desire for beauty.... quite frankly, many times both men and women are quite happy to settle down with a less than super-attractive spouse, because they find that they love all of the other things about that person. In fact, they see that person as even more beautiful/handsome because of those other qualities. I have a friend who went from "She's OK" to "She is the most beautiful woman in the world, and I don't even look at other women with any desire, because I already have the most beautiful of the bunch at home." I know his wife, and have known her for ... I dunno ... probably 25 years. She is a really nice, really sweet, and really talented woman .... but if you asked 100 men to rank her beauty, you would probably do well to get an average of 5 or 6 our of the group. However, as the 2 of them have shared experiences, good and bad, their love has grown and grown throughout the years.

Attractiveness is important, but let's also not confuse that with flat out drop dead gorgeous. "Attractive" includes a great number of factors beyond how they look in a photograph. It includes how a person carries himself or herself. It includes how a person presents himself or herself. Frankly, it also probably includes how that person reacts to their approach. There are many aspects of attractiveness beyond the mere image of a person. I think that we can discount these factors when we berate the idea that attractiveness matters to men. (and women)

Just my $0.02.