DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mike Pettine

Your drinking the kool aid bro even though your trying to appear to be centered which your not.

Pet will be pounded relentlessly along with Farmer the moment the loses start to pile up. And short of them getting a QB from somewhere their choices will catch up with them. The entire QB situation to this date has been mismanaged and the touted accountability seems to be a moving target.

Pet's OC will be the 1st to come under fire followed by the O line and RB, but the truth will be we failed to properly address the QB situation. They have the next 4 days to get that in order but short of them performing some sort of miracle they all could be fired by seasons end.

Oh and this regime isn't responsible for most of the top talent on this team, they inherited the roster. The picks Farmer made last year at the top of the draft were well awful, mostly do to Farmer not doing enough homework or looking past character issues. I understand and have heard his excuses and I hope that he takes the time to do his job better this year, and stops trying to be the HC too.

Right now this regime is a solid maybe with the opportunity to face plant themselves if they don't get a QB. Continuity isn't going to make or braek these guys winning and losing will..

JMHO

jmo you really should.

i think you are naive to think once trust is lost it can be won back so quick and easy.

i think you are naive to try to separate the text on game day and film review in front of the whole coaching staff. ofcourse the same thing he was badgering the staff about on game day was happening on film review night.

Where is this "badgering" coming from? From my perspective, if it were anywhere near what I take to be the intensity of badgering it would have come out much sooner. Pettine would have known about it and addressed it before it even came to the attention of the league. I think the texts are more likely to be honest questions from Farmer directed at Shanahan asking why he's straying from the gameplan they discussed all week. I think Shanny was embarrassed and didn't bring it to the attention of his HC. I'm guessing it came out because Shanahan let something slip when he was chatting with a reporter he grew up around. The NFL caught wind and had to "protect the image of the shield" and had to punish us somehow, but if it was as egregious as the majority of downers want to make it out I don't see how we wouldn't have faced harsher sanctions. I think Shanny slunk away and the Browns took the high road. The organization is used to being a punching bag, and out of respect for his father let him escape with some small measure of dignity.

Winning coaches have many more "friends" in the media than downtrodden organizations. How do you expect the script to read in those circles?

These stories are obviously not made up as they came out BEFORE he was a member of the Browns...

http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2013/12/1...shanahans-staff
http://fansided.com/2013/12/15/kyle-shanahan-likely-leave-redskins-longer-wants-work-father/
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jaso...ins-dysfunction

The last article being from cbs sports, so its from reputable sources.

Tired of hearing about how dysfunctional the Browns are when I perceive that Kyle was at the center of all of it. And not his first time to boot. Imagine him acting out with his Dad to clean up the messes only to come to Cleveland where no one will jump to his bidding.

I'm all on the "its a new year/slate clean" train after seeing several articles of Kyle issues not in Cleveland. Not to mention, one of Pettines "buddies" ended up being a pretty solid first year defensive coordinator, curious to see what his hand picked offensive coordinator can do.

Optimism is reborn in Cleveland... they call that Stockholm Syndrome.

LMAO...........no one is making up more stuff than you.

However, it soon surfaced that the guilty party was rookie GM Ray Farmer. He had been reportedly sending texts complaining about play-calling and on-field personnel during games to a select few members of the staff on the sideline. Farmer owned up to this, and today, official ruling came down in terms of the team’s punishment.

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2015/03/30...-gm-ray-farmer/

One of the reasons that offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan left the Browns at the end of the season is apparently that he felt the front office was meddling in decisions that should have been left to the coaching staff. In particular, executives were reportedly texting Shanahan during games to tell him which plays they wanted called.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...y-be-suspended/

Citing unnamed sources, ESPNCleveland.com reported Farmer texted coaches in the coaches' box during games to complain about play calls and the usage of players

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...-probe-1.564200

NEOMG reported on Jan. 6 that a Browns "high-ranking personnel member texted from the press box to the sidelines about playcalls'' during a game, which was one of the reasons former offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan, now with the Falcons, felt that working for the Browns had become dysfunctional for him.

Multiple league sources have told NEOMG that Farmer was the high-ranking personnel member who violated the NFL's electronic device policy by the impermissible texting. Those messages were then apparently relayed to the coaches. One source told NEOMG that the texts occurred in multiple games.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/cleveland_browns_ray_farmer_su.html



(What was your reaction to Ray Farmer's texting?) "I'll be honest, I wasn't thrilled about it.

Did your trust have to be rebuilt after you found out?) "I would say that it had to rebuild

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/2/18/8...ript/in/7833584

I really like your post. I don't agree w/a bunch of it, but you really set-up a logical and rational argument.

I've stated my opinions on those matters and am not going to attack your opinions.

We disagree on some of those items. I just wanted to recognize how you constructed your argument.

We must ignore all of that and blame it all on Shanahan. The truth be damned. lol

pfft. if your that big a baby too bad. i put up fact out of farmer, haslems, and pettine mouth and you put up?

you sit there and call me a liar for over a month i dont say a word. i say i think you are being naive on two things and you throw a sissy fit? pfft

got that ignore thingy. i think... if your smart enough to use it and whatever you do see just skip over and not read.

So I guess the question now is:
Where do we (as fans) go from here?

Do we give this FO a clean slate upon which to write the next chapter?
Do we assume that because mistakes were made, they'll be repeated?
Do we assume a positive outlook for 2015, and look for improvement?
Do we hold last year's bad decisions against them this year, and wait (with bated breath) for the first mess-up?

I really haven't weighed in this subject very much, so I guess I'll share my thoughts now.

1. Ray Farmer did some nice things in the draft last year
2. He made some early round choices that haven't done squat yet.
3. The texting thing was just plain dumb. Questions and concerns are to be dealt with in meetings- not during games.
4. He's had a learning curve like anyone else. One can learn from lucking into some decisions, if one remembers how they came to be. One can also learn from "eff-ups" as well... if for no other reason than to learn what NOT to do.
5. Like most folks, he's a mixed bag of some good, some not-so-good.
6. My 'personal jury' is still out on him.



So... an informal opinion poll:

1. How many think we'd be better off with him gone... and I mean RIGHT NOW? (or 3-4 days after the draft)
2. How many think he deserves a second year?

me. i do. i was really impressed with the guy all year. i said to myself wow... a gm that gets it... a gm that wants the best players to play.... then i found out it was all a lie. i found out how he was badgering the coaching staff from game 2 on. i know pettine will be gone too but i really think no coaching staff can win in a toxic environment like that.

we could have andrew luck and we would struggle because there is no trust with the FO and coaching staff.

jmo but its the way i see it.

I believe your list and options are a little too simplistic.

I don't believe you erase what happened. I don't believe that a clean slate works. That doesn't mean you have to hold those things against anyone or wish they were fired. To me those are two extremes of the spectrum.

I believe a measured response would be to understand and realize the mistakes that were made. For some to stop absolving and minimizing the things he did and man up about it.

I don't believe you have to look at things in an especially positive manner to be realistic that at this juncture, things could go either way.

In business you build a resume'. These incidents are a part of his resume' and we have no way of knowing which direction his resume' will take moving forward.

So I'm open minded and hoping for the best. I'm hoping for the best with an eye on his resume' to date.

And I really believe if you look over the board, nobody has asked for his firing. I just believe some want people to be open and honest about what's transpired thus far.

To be fair Pit, no one has given him a free pass either.

There are many who just choose not to rehash the mistakes over and over.

Are you practicing your political talk? There are certainly more options than those. In fact, those options almost paint people into a corner. It's the same corner The Big Show painted---"you're either w/us or against us."

Personally, I don't think things are that black and white. I don't think they are that absolute. I think there is a middle ground.

I had an open mind when Farmer took over. I did not like that Banner was gone, but I didn't blame Farmer for that. It was the idiot owner, fans, and media who brought Banner's demise to fruition.

Farmer's---and other members of the FO, along w/the owner have soured me. But, it was just one year and I think he/they deserve more time.

My stance on Farmer and company is this:

--You made mistakes. Serious mistakes. Did you learn from them and can you correct them? If you do improve, I will forgive your mistakes. If you compound your mistakes by making even more mistakes, I will lose faith in you.

They can win me over. They can alienate me. I will be watching closely.



This is a no-brainer. He should not be fired. He should stick around. But, as most people who have ever managed people know..........you look for patterns. If the negative issues continue, then it will be time to reconsider. If he shows improvement, it will be time to lay some of the doubt to rest.

No one? Really?

I think that's a fair assessment Vers.

Who has given him a free pass? Maybe I missed it.

haslem, eo lmao. but yea haslem. he is one that not only thinks he only broke a technical rule but thinks " He knows it not only from a personnel standpoint, but from the way a game should be run and managed standpoint."

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-browns/cleveland-browns-1.270107/browns-owner-jimmy-haslam-confirms-ray-farmer-sent-texts-but-says-he-fully-supports-embattled-gm-1.566114?%3F%3F=

Thanks tex.

Rish, my apologies. I should have known better than to reply to you.

Interesting, starting at game 2, which we won, Farmer began badgering the coaches, and continued from then on.

By the end of game 2 our record was 1-1. Then we go on win 6 of the next 9 games.

Then Farmer is caught and the texting comes to a stop... we never win another game.


You decide.




Dang, I'm cleaver.

Ward, is that you !?!

lol!

nice.

thanks.

Farmer's text messages were nearly a season-long occurrence, a source close to the situation said Wednesday. The texts took place for multiple games and continued at least until Johnny Manziel got his first start in Week 15.

The texts did not necessarily deal with strategy, but with issues related to quarterback play, use of personnel and second-guessing of play calls and use of personnel -- especially the quarterback. The individual on the sideline was expected to relay Farmer's information/requests to the coaching staff.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12278830/cleveland-browns-gm-ray-farmer-face-texting-sanctions

yea .......

I'm not saying he didn't text, my concern is a matter of degree. The semantics of badgering compared to asked questions. Were you happy with the play calling towards the end of the season? Why did whoever received the texts even have a cellphone on the sideline?

Farmer's text messages were nearly a season-long occurrence, a source close to the situation said Wednesday. The texts took place for multiple games and continued at least until Johnny Manziel got his first start in Week 15.

The texts did not necessarily deal with strategy, but with issues related to quarterback play, use of personnel and second-guessing of play calls and use of personnel -- especially the quarterback. The individual on the sideline was expected to relay Farmer's information/requests to the coaching staff.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12278830/cleveland-browns-gm-ray-farmer-face-texting-sanctions

The semantics of badgering compared to asked questions?

well......

I refuse to take espn hyperbole as gospel until I see timestamps

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're still even arguing this. Hopefully, this year everyone is on the same page.

and thats the reason i have try to keep it to facts of what pettine farmer and haslem said. others have been bringing up the bs posts.



me? for the simple reason that nobody said it changed. pettine said he was mad but see where farmer is coming from.. farmmer said he used the wrong format and learned there was another, and haslem said texting was wrong and farmer knows how things should be done on game day.

No apologies necessary. I should be apologizing to you. I misinterpreted your proclamation that you don't want to mislead posters as a serious thing and not a tongue in cheek thing.

It's hard to tell tone with the written word sometimes. I get myself caught in that trap a lot.

So Banner had little or nothing to do with it? We all know that's likely not the case.

Look, I realize that you probably don't mean it that way, but that is the way it sometimes comes off when you talk about Banner. There were reports that infighting between Banner and his hand picked GM, Mike Lombardi, were at the root of Banner's demise. In the end, I think that banner managed to bring about his own end, through his own actions.

Here is an article that outlines what happened.

Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other, and Browns owner Jimmy Haslam wiped out both | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/02/joe_banner_and_mike_lombardi_e.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns CEO Joe Banner and his top lieutenant Mike Lombardi ended on bad terms with each other, and their discord led to Jimmy Haslam firing both, league sources told cleveland.com.

Banner and Lombardi clashed over a number of things, but the disconnect came to a head during the tumultuous 25-day coaching search.

By the end of it, Banner wanted to fire his embattled GM, and Lombardi knew it. If he didn't know, he missed the writing on the wall.

But what Banner didn't know, and should have, was that Haslam had also grown weary of him during the search -- portrayed as dysfunctional in the local and national media -- and was gearing up to fire him.

The owner and the CEO didn't see eye-to-eye over a number of candidates, and Haslam came to feel that Banner was the reason some didn't want to interview for -- or accept -- his coaching job.

Banner took a gamble last year on Lombardi -- who is reportedly set to join Bill Belichick's staff in New England -- despite a thunderous backlash from Cleveland fans and media, and it ultimately contributed to his downfall.

In the latter stages of the coaching search, Lombardi's good friend Belichick was calling to advise Haslam on candidates, including encouraging him to interview fired Bucs coach Greg Schiano, sources confirmed for cleveland.com. Sports Illustrated's Peter King first reported that Banner was miffed about the last-minute Schiano interview, which took place a day or two after their second interview with Mike Pettine at the Senior Bowl in late January.

Against Banner's wishes, the Browns left the Senior Bowl and flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, who was coming off a scandal-rocked 4-12 season. The year was marred by a MRSA outbreak in the locker room and a public battle between the team and quarterback Josh Freeman. At the time, the interview looked like a favor for a coach down on his luck, but it was more than that. Haslam listened to the recommendations of Belichick and Ohio State coach Urban Meyer, and overrode his CEO's opinion. Others in the organization were also on board with talking to Schiano.

The Josh McDaniels candidacy

Haslam and Banner were also at odds over Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, according to insiders. McDaniels -- a longtime Lombardi favorite -- supposedly became Haslam's top choice, but Banner had his reservations.

McDaniels had been fired by the Broncos after a controversial reign in which he alienated some players and lost 17 of his last 22 games. He was also fired in large part because of a videotaping scandal. But Lombardi strongly felt McDaniels received a raw deal in Denver, and would excel in the right situation chance, much like his pal Belichick did in New England.

Shortly after the Browns interviewed McDaniels, a Canton native, he pulled his name out of the search, saying he was happy where he was. After the media portrayed McDaniels' withdrawal as another sign that no one wanted the "radioactive'' Browns job, sources told cleveland.com and other local reporters that McDaniels pulled his name out because he was told he wasn't the frontrunner.

The "frontrunner'' retort didn't sit well with some candidates or potential candidates, a source said.

But a McDaniels hire might've also gone over like a lead balloon. After the interview, NFL Network's Mike Silver wrote, “ ... when I read reports that former Denver Broncos coach Josh McDaniels might be the leading candidate to fill the Cleveland Browns opening, I feel like someone has just taken a tire iron to my skull.”

Within about 24 hours after McDaniels pulled out of the search, he called to get back in, a source close to the situation told cleveland.com. But there were conflicting reports on how McDaniels got back on the radar, with NFL Network reporting that the Browns called him and tried to coax him back in.

Regardless, he remained in and out of the running up until the end, when the Browns hired Pettine on Jan. 23. In fact, he received the support and recommendation of Belichick as the search wore on.

McDaniels might've been mystery finalist the Browns referred to on the day Pettine was hired, although they later said it was Seahawks defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, who also hadn't yet been eliminated until Pettine agreed to terms.

The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy

The Ken Whisenhunt candidacy also presented problems. Sources said that Whisenhunt, who took the Titans head job, would've considered coming to Cleveland but had concerns over the management team in place, specifically Banner.

The Browns had interviewed Whisenhunt for their head-coaching vacancy last year, but passed him over because they were more impressed with the coordinators Rob Chudzinski could produce -- Norv Turner and Ray Horton, sources told cleveland.com at the time. Whisenhunt also interviewed with Buffalo in 2013, but the job went to Doug Marrone.

SI's King reported Wednesday that when Whisenhunt asked the Browns in his interview this year why they didn't hire him in 2013, Banner told him it was because they wanted to see more of a “a championship coaching staff”

Whisenhunt, one NFL source told King, was miffed that Banner, who had never coached, would criticize his choice of assistants.

“Who are you to tell me what makes up a championship coaching staff?” Whisenhunt said, with an edge in his voice, King wrote.

Sources told cleveland.com it's true Whisenhunt was told he didn't get the job last year because of his staff, but that he never called out Banner over it during this year's interview or had an edge in his voice. One source said there was never an awkward moment during the Whisenhunt meeting and that he was the consummate professional. The discussion was frank and open, but Whisenhunt was non-confrontational.

"Why would someone who was trying to land a job go off on one of the interviewers?'' said one source.

Beginning of the end

Still, the disconnect amongst the power-brokers was evident by then, and the groundwork had been laid for the end of the short Banner-Lombardi regime. Banner had the job for 16 months, and Lombardi, 13 months -- although he was involved behind the scenes from the moment Haslam agreed to purchase the team 18 months ago.

Sources also said that former Penn State coach Bill O'Brien, who also remains close to his former boss Belichick, wasn't interested in interviewing with the Browns this year because of the management team in place. He talked to the Browns last year but opted to remain at Penn State. This year, he took the Texans head-coaching job without interviewing with the Browns.

By the day Pettine was hired, the signs were strong that Lombardi was gone, and that Haslam and Banner weren't in lockstep.

While Lombardi wasn't even present at introductory press conference, Farmer was hailed that day by Haslam and Banner as "a rising star'' in the organization -- the first sign that Lombardi was on his way out.

That same day, Banner also lamented the fact that he didn't get a chance to meet with the Super Bowl-bound Quinn a second time, calling it "the toughest decision'' of the interview process. He went on to praise Quinn, predicting he'd be an excellent head coach some day. It almost sounded like buyer's remorse -- but several sources said that wasn't true, that everyone in the organization was completely on board with Pettine and blown away by his interviews.

A week later at the Super Bowl, Banner continued to praise Farmer in an interview with cleveland.com regarding the assistant GM's decision to turn down the Dolphins' GM job.

"I'm not surprised that other people are recognizing it,'' Banner said. "He's extremely hard-working, smart, totally trustworthy loyal and a great evaluator. He understands the elements of character, personality and drive (in prospects) and he integrates them into the grading of what you see on the film.''

Meanwhile, Banner barely mentioned Lombardi and kept his media-savvy GM out of the public eye all season, describing him in March as a "lightning rod for criticism.'' It was clear that Lombardi had fallen out of favor with Banner, and that the top of the organization was splintered.

Still, two sources said Banner was "flabbergasted'' by his firing and never saw it coming. They said Banner thought Haslam was happy with Banner's first 16 months, during which he attracted excellent top-level executives such as President Alec Scheiner and general counsel Sashi Brown and had overhauled the entire operation.

Insiders also said Haslam may have had second thoughts about firing coach Rob Chudzinski, even though he was completely on board with it at the time.

In the end, the Browns felt they landed an excellent head coach in Pettine after a thorough process in which they cast a wide net. Several sources said the perception candidates didn't want their job was inaccurate, and that many excellent prospects called to be interviewed and weren't considered.

The only candidate on their list who actually declined to meet with them was Broncos coordinator Adam Gase, who told them he wanted to focus on the Super Bowl and was happy with his current job.

In the end, Banner took a chance on Lombardi, and when he set out to fire him, they both went down.

I had no issue with Banner other than hiring Lombardi. That was it but it was big enough that i just couldnt get past it and was thrilled when both left.

not specifically to you, TTown (or anybody else, for that matter...)

Well, it's obvious to me that The Perfect Administrator has not yet been born.

Which is why I find it to be an exercise in folly to continually debate on these boards about past personnel who are no longer on the Browns' payroll.

I like some things that Farmer has done.
I like some things that Banner did.
I liked some things that Heckert did.
I liked some things that Savage did.

...and I saw them all make mistakes and miscalculations, as well. ALL of them.

I swear, we can sometimes be like bulldogs with bones here. Reality flash: some of us are still arguing about folks who probably remember less about their time here as Browns than WE do. That's just sad.

"Deep into Geekville," anyone?

Sometimes, it's enough to make a sane poster's head hurt.

What is this fascination for things of the past... things that cannot possibly do anything for us going forward?

It seems that some of us are locked in a perpetual fight to convince others of how right we once were... but we're talking to people who simply have their minds closed to these issues. They made their points years ago, those points haven't changed... and nothing new will force that change, anyway.

Damn!

The draft is upon us.
A new page is about to be turned.
A new chapter is about to be written...

... and we're debating about folks who don't even collect a paycheck from 76 Groza?

Man... time's too short to play the past against one another. I'm more interested in what's coming next. It's much more fun to speculate about the future, because the ink is already dry on the rest of this crap.

I need to kinda understand something here.

Kyle Shanahan works for his father, the Redskins are considered dysfunctional

Kyle Shanahan works for the Browns, the Browns are considered dysfunctional

Is it just me, or is there a thing in common? Namely, Kyle Shanahan?

Could it possibly be that Shanahan was the problem that caused Ray Farmer to lose his cool and start texting? (no excuse for his actions and now he's going to pay for it) Have we been putting the cart before the horse around here?

Is it possible that Shanny was the problem all along?

Maybe all this hate for the Browns FO and for the dysfunctional talk is just that, Talk! Meaningless drivel!

Time to quit worrying about Shanny. he's not hear anymore.

Time to move forward. Yup, that's the ticket.