DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season The NFL Draft 2015 Questioning the Plan...

I saw that as well.

It is not a reason to change opinion.

j/c

Okay, I've been reading all of this. And there are things I simply don't understand, or maybe I do. There were some players I liked and hoped we'd draft, but we didn't. I liked Jalen Strong and thought he would be good value at the pick. I liked Maxx Williams and also thought he was a good value at the pick.

But what I didn't do was something I haven't done for so many years prior. That's to try to study endlessly and make myself feel that I was somehow smarter than NFL GM's. I did have stronger feelings about players I felt would be overvalued. Like Bud Dupree, Mariota and Bryce Petty. Dupree may end up being a good player, but I certainly didn't see him worthy of a top 10 or the #12 draft pick. It seems most NFL GM's agreed with me on both Petty and Dupree.

To sum that all up, I didn't have a set agenda or have some kind of "man love" for certain players in this draft. It allowed me to watch and see a plan unfold. All in all I like the plan. I will probably feel differently if they continue to ignore the O next year and continue what I see as a heavy defensive strategy in the draft. I mean after all, at some point things have to even out in terms of investment.

But for this year I can see what they did and why they did it. It's a plan and a strategy that makes sense. While I have very little confidence in JFF, you simply don't throw away a first round draft pick after two starts and seven quarters of football. There really weren't any logical scenarios for a change there that made any sense.

I believe we helped stop the run, bettered our backfield in the run game and added a very talented and versatile OL player. No matter what anyone believes, the game is won and lost in the trenches.

Yes we will most likely need a QB. And yes we may need an upgrade at the WR position. But we are better at the WR position than we have been since our return with the additions of Bowe and Hartline added in the FA market. They are both something we were lacking. Big targets with good hands.

Now that doesn't mean I'm giving a big thumbs up to this draft. On the surface the strategy was sound. I understand their plan. I endorse such a plan. How the picks pan out and produce will be the real test. No matter what anyone says and no matter your opinions, nobody can say for sure how that will work out.

If their talent rises to the surface and they end up being great players early in our draft and productive players with the later picks, I will be thrilled. If they flail and underperform, I will not be. But only time will answer those questions.

JMHO

So, that means a lot of teams had questions about their receivers. Apparently the Browns didn't?

This is the puzzling/frustrating part. It can be interpreted both good and bad. He obviously missed a lot last year and went with a lot of boom/bust players or small school hypes, instead of trying to build a solid foundation, which he did this season.

Too little, too late is what a cynic like me will say. Otoh, it shows that he maybe evaluated himself and his work and tried to correct it. Or it could be that he was scared to make mistakes this time and went with consensus picks mostly? I don't know. What I do know is that he notably picked from bigger schools and conferences this time. I do think that both Shelton and Orchard especially were still industry hype induced picks

The 3rd round was a thing of beauty in a lot of ways, I will give him that. And he gets an extra tip of the cap for Ifo E-O.

Overall it's not still far from an A draft, but it has me back on the fecne again lurking. We will see

Risk in last years draft?

Gilbert, consensus top tier DB, risk= inconclusive
Manziel, unconventional player at the QB position, risk= major
Bitonio, evaluated as a top talent, risk= negligible
West, small school prospect-big production, risk= moderate
Kirksey, generally undervalued player scheme fit perfect for Browns, risk= moderate
Desir, small school prospect, well scouted for fit, risk= moderate

There's hardly any risks associated with UDFA's Crowell,Williams or Nelson or waiver pick ups like Solomon.That's all gravy

I am with you. The final straw will be the exit of Farmer and Pettine without having reached the playoffs. It is just brutal to watch this team be one of the doormats of the league. One can only invest so much into a bad product. All I am willing to spend at this time is my time. Not one dollar will be spent on this team until they are a sustained competitive team. 45 years with the last 15 just being down right awful. I could care less what others here think. I love NFL football and just ONCE I would like the Browns to be the toast of the league.

Gilbert wasn't the consensus top DB. Brugler had him as a 2nd round talent.

IMO, Gilbert was overdrafted because of his physical ability. If the light ever turns on, he can become a total stud. Kind of a big IF right now, though.

This year, he's going to have to earn his spot on the field. And the year after, with Ifo still on the team, he is REALLY going to have to earn it.

Exactly EO, an awesome defense and a stout, solid running game. Can't everyone see that is what we are doing. We have a deep d-line and now we have that good o-line with some depth there and with our running backs. We had a very good draft and did exactly what we had to do. Our lb's and secondary also have more talent AND depth. We now have to find our qb but this team is positioned to start winning IMO.

Now if only we could get some respect and have some calls go our way (or at least not lopsidedly against us) we'd be set.

Agreed Grimm. A fair shake once in a while would help. The league wants to see their fair haired teams win. Unfortunately we're not one of them, but that's a whole other topic.

jc...

Just watched the post draft presser with Farmer and Pettine together. Man, Farmer was the most relaxed and calm I have ever seen. He actually looked comfortable in front of the camera, talked at a reasonable pace, made intelligent comments, and generally made sense. I can't say this of any other of Farmer's pressers. Actually gave me a good feeling. It showed me what Haslam sees in the guy. He actually appeared affable.

Pettine looked tired and a bit disinterested, but he was his usual honest self, and I like that.

I have a good feeling about these two. They actually make you feel like we can compete without a QB. They are going to coach the hell out of these guys and demand a lot. We should be competitive.

If Manziel can achieve what they thought he could, we may do alright. If not, and it's a rough season, stay the course! These guys have a plan and an identity they are bringing to this team, and that's a good thing.

Agreed. The more I see and hear Farner and Pettine the more I like them. we may be seeing the start of something special here and I was never the most optimistic Browns fan.

From all that I have heard/read, they tried hard to land a QB. They tried to get Bradford out of St. Louis, again out of Philadelphia, and attempted to trade up for Petty but the Jets beat them to the punch...

There are many good comments here and I will admit that I was frustrated with the draft.

I get the need to improve the defense.

What I don't understand is an unwillingness to discount areas of team weakness in order to promote a broader agenda. Whether or not the Browns management are genuine in their internal assessment of team need remains to be seen.

The team still does not have a QB, WR or TE. We know that the QB situation was unlikely to be addressed with this draft. But a back up alternative to a risky QB situation was not addressed and may be another lost opportunity. Opportunities to replace players that have left or been suspended were lost as well, as the players signed in FA have known limits.

There were a lot of players drafted. I hope that there are gems in there.

I wish Farmer well, but hope that he refrains from establishing a m/o for his team vision and focuses on doing what is best for the team.

We don't know what we have at QB. There weren't any amazing options available to us. We can win games with the McCown that only threw one pick in Chicago.

At WR, we added Bowe and Hartline. He addressed the position. Cooper and White were gone and the team thought Parker was soft. Mayle fits the run first mentality the team wants and has some upside.

At TE, we have a solid blocker in Dray who fits what we want to do. Housler could be a better fit in our O as a Cameron replacement than he was for Bruce Arians scheme. Barnidge is a solid 3rd tight end/utility guy. Telfer has potential if he can get healthy.

With respect to QB, you are making my point. We don't know, so we do nothing to improve the situation.

With respect to WR, my point stands. Bowe and Hartline are simply serviceable receivers and the opportunity for any improvement was lost.

With respect to TE, the position is a downgrade from last year. Telfer is more of the Dray/Barnidge mold.

"You guys and your need for WRs is disappointing for educated football fans. "
========================================================

Sorry to insult your intelligence.

Maybe understanding that selecting players to build a defense does exclude addressing a deficiency on offense.

Seems like there are plenty of yards, first downs, and touchdowns that are the direct result of receivers catching passes.

I believe that I have heard that it is a passing league.

There must be a reason other teams draft receivers in the first two rounds?

I see the Ravens and Steelers made moves to address the offensive needs.

See any Browns receivers:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingTouchdowns

Actually I have no problem with what the Browns did in the draft except that they could have selected BPA in the second or third round and gotten better.

After Winston and Mariota, who do you see that is better than McCown now? I see no one. Tampa and Tennessee weren't trading the picks.

Bowe and Hartline fit our offensive plans. Cooper and White were gone. We didn't think Parker could be physical. Mayle fits what we want to do, and his spot on our board matched where he fell in the draft. Gordon comes back next year.

Name one player at TE that blocks better than Dray. I don't see one. Maybe Boyle, but he's even slower than the TE's we've got. Cameron was hurt all last year. Our other players are the same. How are we worse? Housler could show up in Cameron's role. Name a TE that has ever stretched the seam in a Bruce Arian's offense. Fleener looks pretty good in Indy, he did squat with Arians. Malcolm Johnson could develop into a Charles Clay like undersized TE even if I see him as more of a Marcel Reese FB.

From the Browns perspective, They did.

I liked tom heckert but thought he was foolish trading up for a RB and weeden at 22 it was foolish. I ripped savage to shred for his picks like Wimbley and Travis Wilson. I ripped Mangini for his horrible draft. I ripped Lombardi for his repeating of the kam wimbley mistake.

I didnt have an issue with Gilbert other than I thought he gave up to much space. Thought it was a relatively safe pick because of his athleticism. I had manziel as my 2nd QB after Teddy's proday killed his stock in my eyes. Loved the west pick and he hit it out of the park with his undrafteds.

I thought we vastly overpaid for McCown and Bowe. Not a big fan of either. Loved hartline, Starks and the corner from GB as a stopgap.

Its not about having faith in him, it is about judging each individual decision and how those separate parts fit the vision he and Pet have for this team.

I wanted Parker but Shelton is a beast.

I like Erving but i didnt think we would take him and he would go 15 to 25 with a team needing a center. We announced him as a guard and i think he starts there and may kick outside if he can beat out schwartz. This was a great pick.

Other picks he made I liked as well. Others i did not like. Some i dont know enough about to have a good opion of them. What he did do was drafted throw back mentality to the game of football. These were all tough physical players who are getting it done off the field as well.

If u see stupid call him on being stupid like the Texting nonsense. He didnt draft a big name receiver but he did bring 2 in during FA. If his plan isnt working rip him for it but we brought in some good players and our team improved.

I think the best part of are plan is that every game from here out is a battle of toughness.

They did go BPA in the 3rd round and, actually, I think that'll be like last year's second round. Johnson and Cooper are home run picks.

That being said...I could go either way on Orchard. If they are correct about his production carrying over into the NFL, then it's an easy pass. But his HWS measurable may hinder him at the next level.

Personally, I think Orchard will benefit on playing in the NFL game more because his lateral quickness won't be exposed too terribly much. Where he excels is power and good technique, both of which happen to be good things that tend to carry over to the NFL.

As for WR...the team is obviously going to be run based. Pittsburgh and Baltimore are absolutely not run based anymore. That's why they went with a WR, because they have a QB that can utilize WR'ers more than we can. Why would we draft a WR when the Browns don't have a QB that can really utilize him as a talent? Especially when they have an elite offensive line, get the best runners you can and try to beat teams over the top.

I understand the frustration, and some of it is warranted. The fact that we still may not have the QBOFT on our team is disconcerting. But it's like Pat Mac said on ESPN, if the Browns had a good QBOFT, this team would be really good right now.

+1

I think you are being overly pesimistic. I would agree the team is going to struggle 3 or 4 scores down. We probably aren't built for fast scoring in a situation like that.

But an offense that's unable to get a lead? How so - are we never going to score? If the D is good, how many points per game do we need to win? 17? 14 maybe on a few good weeks.

Everything hinges on the QB play - not the WR position. Hartline, Bowe (who I much more down on than most) and Hawkins/Gabriel is not an awful recieiving corps?

As for competition at every position ... unlikely to be at "every" position regardless of best intentions? And who is to say competiton is a good thing in every single case?!! We have a QB competition (that I am guess we all hope JM wins) but is it good that we have a competition between two such inadequate (to date) NFL players? Hardly. We don't have a lot of competition at ILB - or safety. I don't see that being such a big issue. If McCown is as decent as Hoyer was last year (and Hoyer was pretty darn average for the first half and well below average for the second half of the season) - we'll be fine.

With a weaker roster than this we will have next year - we beat the Steelers and the Bengals ... all depending on the QB - but we can do the same again in 2015.

I cracked up when Pettine said he was comfortable with the QB's he had on this roster... That's honesty?
Regardless, I like Pettine, but so sad he is in a bad organization.

I cracked up when folks thought we were trading for Mariotta and 2 firsts for a Bradford that is still on cructches. the best one however was when people thought we were done with Johnny after 7 quarters of football. That was sooo funny.

I am not afraid of complimenting the Browns for moves that yielded team improvement.

Last year the running game was improved with the addition of West, Crow and Hardesty,(before he burnt the bridge).

Last year the pass defense appeared to be better, but the level of QB pressure was less.

FA's last year was Whitner for Ward and Dansby for Jackson. I think that Dansby was an upgrade over Jackson.

Injuries slowed the offensive and defensive lines. The loss of Mack was probably in the range of 4 to 6 points per game. You can look up the point production before and after his injury to see that there was a noticeable drop in offensive points per game. That was not anticipated.

The run defense did need work. I get it. There is no problem with the Shelton Pick. I also get the Erving (Mack contingency plan) and Orchard picks.

Now the draft last year, there are two things to consider... What is the need, and how is the need addressed. Gilbert was a reasonable pick both in terms of need and response. Manziel was a risk/reward pick and the Browns publicly stated that there was a need to address the QB situation after the failed attempt with Weeden. As far as Manziel is concerned, as of now we have seen the risk, and none of the reward. The thing that was lacking last year was a response to the Gordon situation which was known, and essentially ignored. Austin was the patch.

So going into the draft this year we had the following needs.

DL (run)
DL/LB (pass)
QB
WR
TE
Special Teams...


We know that the FA marker did not substantially change things (Rubin and Sheard are gone and we have Starks). Austin is gone and replaced by Hartline and Bowe. Bowe will essentially be the replacement for Gordon this year.

Cameron was a net loss, although not a great as it may seam on the surface as he was often injured.

Thus my critique involves two issues 1) identifying needs and the ability of the organization to address those needs by FA or Draft. The second 2) involves the ability of the organization to identify the correct player to address a need.

My concern is more with item 1 than it is with item 2.

The comment that discounted the need for a WR is concerning if it results in an approach that ignores the critique of a past mistake in the hope that it will simply go away.

My counter for this would be, as follows:

We filled every one of the listed needs except for QB and WR. In FA, we signed two outside WR'ers to fill in holes. Bowe may replace Gordon and Hartline replace Austin, but not only did they replace them, they improved upon them.

While I will never say that the WR core is done, I will say that it isn't missing a ton. Bowe and Hartline are mediocre, good enough to play possession ball. Gabriel and Hawkins have both shown to be more than adept at the slot. Do we need a primary receiver? Yes and no. The offense could use it, but I woulnd't classify it as a dire need.

Number two...look, the franchise is clearly going to give Johnny the rope to hang himself. If he provides no substance this year, and shows no hope that he can be the QBOTF, then this is a glaring hole that the Browns clearly wiffed on. However, if he does turn it around, and by all accounts he's work harder now that he did probably all of last season, then he's probably got a shot.

It's tough, because QB is a total unknown at this point. Either Manziel takes the reigns or McCown fills the role to the best of his abilities and 2016 is a new year. But the Browns couldn't give up on Manziel that early.

Whether it was a totally smart plan to hitch your wagon to Manziel in the first place, that's totally fair.

As for the plan for the team overall, the best way to mitigate damage that you don't have a QB or an elite WR is to be able to run the ball when you want. Clearly this is what the offense is setting up an identity for. Run the ball, keep the game close, and seal the deal at the end.

Will it work? No idea. But it's a really good plan, one that many teams have followed for years *Seattle, early 2000's Baltimore, Pittsburgh until about '09, New York Jets, ect...*

Exactly !!!

+1

From where I sit we've made significant strides to solve the DL-run and the DL-pass needs of the the team. I don't accept that our ST were particularly needy. Some of the role players drated this year will also improve that unit.

No arguement that the QB position needs an answer. The WR corp is a work in progress. We have a short term answer at TE signed for 1 year.

I think our special teams unit is garbage. Punter sucks, long snapper sucks, and kicker sucks and they are all better than our return units.

I didn't mean give the impression that our special team's were elite. Here are our league wide rankings in the relevant categorizes: (NFL.com)

Kicking, #2
Field Goals, #17 (t)
Kick Returns #28
Punting #3

I think our kick coverage and our punt coverage are decent. Our return ability can be improved. With 12 picks some of the drafted players will have to contribute initially on special teams.

We signed a new long snapper to "compete" with Yount. Lanning is not good and neither is Hartley. It seems like Lanning will be back. Who knows who our kicker will be.

I am hoping Duke Johnson can be a good returner and/or Benjamin can overcome his fear of punt returing.

There were no staring level QB available to us in this draft. This was an awful year to need a QB, unless you held the top 1-2 pick. My favorite was Mannion, and I think that he might have the ability to start in the NFL. I don't know how well he will do though. The Browns FO evidently felt that none of the QN, once you got past the top 2, were worth drafting where they had an opportunity to do so. Farmer said that he will not overdraft a QB just to take one, and I think that is a good philosophy. If you don't feel that a guy can become a starter, then take a better player at a different position.

We could have taken a WR, and that is obvious to all. With the comments that Parker's mother made, it seems as though he did not want to come here, and if he made that clear in his interviews, and who knows what happened there, or if they did not feel that he was committed to being great.

There were other receivers they could have taken .... but they stayed true to their board. We can disagree with their board, but it is very clear that this is exactly what they did. They took the players at the top of their board, regardless of position. They did take a receiver, and he looks like a guy who could develop into a starting quality player. We have Bowe and Hartline, but we also have Hawkins and Gabriel. (who were pretty darn good last year) We also have Benjamin, who should be completely recovered from his ACL. We'll see what we have here.

TE is already a position of strength in my opinion. I really like the addition of Housler as our receiving TE. I think that he will fill the role that Cameron played, and will do so well.

It is obvious what the plan was in this draft. We are putting together a strong team. We added a huge NT, who should help us stop the run. We added a OL, who was not my favorite pick, but I can see why they took him. We added speed on both offense and defense. Most importantly, we took players who fit.

I see us being a 9 win team this year, and that will be a huge accomplishment. We will play strong defense, and will run the ball effectively. We will limit QB play to limit mistakes. We will look like we did at the start of last year, and we will be better on defense.

I am extremely excited about this coming year. I wish I could create a great QB for this team, but that is beyond my ability. Our best hope is that one falls to us, like Roethlisberger did to Pittsburgh, or Marino did to Miami.

Just my $0.02.

"In sum, the Browns added seven defensive players --
two DL,
two LBs,
three DBs

-- and five on offense --
RB,
two TEs,
WR,
OL."