Well I have to admit that I really do not see any attempt to address the obvious needs for this team.

Needs

WR
TE
QB

Parker was passed upon yesterday
Williams and Warford would have been an upgrade.
Jalen Strong could have helped this team.
I was intrigued by Conley.

The Browns gave up a 5th to move up to Pick Cooper.

Aside from Johnson, who will compete with West and Crow, the playmakers have been ignored.

Stopping the run and rushing the passer were two of their biggest needs and both were addressed. They addressed their defensive needs instead of offensive, that's all. They spent a 1st on Manziel, brought in Hartline and Bowe, and see Housler as a healthier Jordan Cameron. Their D needs were more pressing during the draft.

TE? I am fine with Drey and Barnidge and the other kid we signed out of AZ supposed to be an athlete with good hands.

WR We did sign Bowe and Hartline and I love Gabriel and Hawkins is also a pretty competent receiver.

QB we drafted him last year in Johnny. You didnt think we were gonna give up on a guy we spent a first and third on in just 7 quarters did ya?

I have to agree. There was talent at the skill positions on the board and we passed them up. Our division is getting stronger yet we stay the same. I just don't understand. Besides Shelton, we have nothing to write home about. No one on our team scares opposing defenses. Is Farmer trying to build the '92 Eagles?! All defense, no offense? Teams that win usually have balance on both sides of the ball. Sorry to say, so Far I see nothing to indicate we will finally rise from the depths of the AFC North basement.

j/c

Tony Lippett is still on the board.

Well, look, the Browns are going to be a run based offense. They have a lot of talent at RB with Crowell, West and Johnson. They have a lot of talent on their offensive line. I hate to tell you guys this, but the offense is going to be based off a lot of running.

I would like to see a bigger red zone threat at WR. I think Bowe can be productive there, but I'd like to see one more guy. Other than that, I guess I've accepted what this offense is going to be and embraced the advantages of it.

Stats from 2014

Scoring...

Browns Offense 27th.
Browns Defense 9th.

Exactly. You can't shut everyone out. Yes, the Browns will be better defensively. That just means they won't lose by double digits. You NEED offensive talent to KEEP THE DEFENSE OFF THE FIELD. Tougher schedule, no real offensive playmakers is a recipe for another last place finish. Hopefully Haslam is patient with Farmer and Pettine. And Farmer better get a damn clue about how to draft offensive players in 2016. Or it will be his last season in Cleveland.

Darren Waller is my guy.

You mean the QB that just spent 2 1/2 months in rehab?

I think the Browns went into the draft trying to improve three areas.....

1. Stopping the run (wwe were dead last in this area). This was our biggest need on defense.

2. Improving our run game. (I thought we were decent here last year, but apparently they weren't satisfied)

3. Pressure on the QB

Now I don't like all the picks, but if they drafted well and did improve these three areas then we are a much better football team. I know some of us like to view ourselves as "scouts" but the truth is we are not. Neither myself nor anyone else on this board is qualified to give an NFL scouting report on a player.

What we can do is judge direction and planning as you have alluded to. I like the plan much better than giving up an entire draft for a gamble like Mariota, or panicking into taking the 3rd best WR at 12......wwho would have been the 6th WR taken in last year's deep WR draft.

They may have totally bombed the picks, because I don't trust their ability to judge talent yet, but I feel much more comfortable that they actually have a plan than I did two days ago.

Finally, someone who agrees with me.

I wanted a WR early on, but I understand their philosophy.

We will be much stronger on both lines next year. We added a OL who will hopefully upgrade a position on the OL. We took a NT to help the run defense, which was a dire need. We also took a DE and an OLB/Pass rusher to help bring pressure on the oppossing QB. We added a RB who is supposed to be a very useful guy in both running the ball and as a receiver.

Plus we still have 5 picks left tomorrow.

I think that the plan is to make this a stronger, more powerful team, and to add speed. We may add a receiver tomorrow, and that would not surprise me. TE is not a need in any way, shape, or form. We have a very nice rotation there. We could use a guy like Antonio Brown at WR, so maybe we'll find that guy in the 4th or 6th where we have numerous picks.

I don't know if there is a starting QB in this draft after Winston. I liked, and would have taken a chance on Mannion, but once he was off the board, there is no one else who interests me. We already have to develop a spread QB in Manziel, I don't see any need to also add a read option guy to the puzzle as well.

I like what Farmer has done so far. He has also added picks that allowed him to move back into the 3rd to get our final pick of the day.

All of the guys we drafted seem to fit. That is so important. I suspect that Pettine had more of an influence in this draft than in his 1st season. We got a lot of players who look like "his kind of players".

I like this draft so far. Tomorrow has a chance to make me really love it.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ravens and Steelers made a living with a strong defense and running the football. How do you explain Seattle last two years? Receivers?

Browns can have the strongest OL and DL fronts in the league. Both are built with a strong next-man-up capability.

Do you remember Hillis? How about Lynch? They are a one man show. Browns have three different types of RBs. Instead of teams daring Browns to the throw the ball. They can now say you better have 8 in the box. Receiving corp will feast on single coverage. The run game ain't dead it is simply forgotten.

Honestly, it doesn't matter who the QB is. EVERY defense is going to load the box and make whoever it is make plays. If not, lots of 3 and outs and a tired defense that plays tough for 3 quarters but gets gassed. I understand the Browns are going to pound the rock, but they will more than likely run into a lot of walls. You still have to have play makers in the passing game to possess the ball.

On a side note, viewing Bowe as a red zone asset is a joke. Dude had ZERO TDs last year and I'm pretty sure KC has more offensive talent than the Browns. And Alex Smith is better than anything on our roster any day of the week.

Another loaded draft at WR and Farmer does nothing. Genius.

NO Kansas City WR had a TD last year.

So we blame all that on Bowe?

My riff with the draft is...Seems like some of our picks are slight reaches, and perhaps Farmer again overreacting and pulling the gun early (Xavier Cooper)

Can't believed we passed on Max Williams...Loved Jaelen Strong as well, but I'm thinking his wrist was flagged in medicals...I don't understand why we need 10 Dlineman on a 3 man front...

I don't dislike Duke Johnson I actually like him...But thought Crow showed well and West was alright...

Hopefully tomorrow we address TE,WR,QB,OT or C,S...still need a FB and PR too...still need alot

2 and half months dedicated to getting his mind right. He will get his shot. If he fails we will turn to someone else but he was always gonna get more than 7 quarters of football to prove himself.

I wanted Parker cause he brought an element we lacked in the big receiver that was a redzone demon but I am ok with what we have at receiver. If the run game is clicking and Johnny is average, we are a playoff team. I think the defense is gonna be there and keep us in every game.

quotes


Here's most of your answer about the draft so far.

Pittsburgh 612 passing attempts 4825 yards
423 rushing attempts 1752 yards

Baltimore 554 passing attempts 3819 yards
448 rushing attempts 2019 yards

Cleveland 477 rushing attempts 1728 yards
502 passing attempts 3465 yards

Pittsburgh DEFINITELY not making a living running the ball. I'll give you Baltimore but no one in Cleveland is scaring pass defenses. You can't say that about Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Well, you can, but you'd be out of your mind. Defending the Browns will be simple this fall. Load the box and make the QB make plays. Good luck Josh. Or Johnny.

Duke was the best player on the board. I love Crow and West but this just adds some red pepper to the chili. I would have gone another direction but no one should believe that this wasnt a fantastic pick cause it was. Fantastic vision and he has some of the best feet i have seen on any back.

I don't know how anyone that is charged with building a team can make such a nonsense statement.

Teams are built for balance. While they may favor offense or defense, pass or run, they do not ignore any part of the game.

Doing so makes a team one dimensional and easier to defeat.

Apparently, Farmer thinks our receivers lack of production was a result of poor quarterbacking. They did get open more last year than I remember in the past. Maybe Hoyer was awful and our amazing receivers made him look respectable (disclaimer: I really don't believe this).

I'd still like a big target, but our receivers are better than they get credit for.

So you believe Hoyer was good and our receivers were awful?

Because I really don't believe that either. They both were the problem and Farmer corrected part of it, at least. Adding Bowe and Hartline really did upgrade the group to respectable. It's not like last year where the Browns trotted out Hawkins and Benjamin as their starting outside WR.

Seattle 525 rushing attempts 2762 yards
454 passing attempts 3492 yard

Dallas 508 rushing attempts 2354 yards
476 passing attempts 4008 yard

Maybe Steelers and Ravens should stick with their original plan if they want another shot.

This is the depth chart as I see it right now:

Offense (25/26)

QB: {avert your eyes}
RB: West, Crowell, Johnson (this could easily end up in any order)
FB: open spot, Glenn Winston
WR: Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins, open spot, Gabriel, Benjamin
TE: open spot, Dray, Housler, Barnidge
OL: Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, Greco, Erving, Schwartz, Bowie, open spot, Seymour/Painter


Defense (25)

NT: Taylor, Shelton, Kitchen
DE: D. Bryant, J. Hughes, R. Starks, B. Winn, X. Cooper
LOLB: Kruger, A. Bryant
SILB: Dansby, open spot, Carder
WILB: Robertson, Kirksey
ROLB: Orchard, Mingo
CB: Haden, T. Williams, K. Williams, Gilbert, Desir
FS: Gipson, Poyer
SS: Whitner, Bademosi

Specialists: (3)

K
P
LS

The only potential spots I see left on the roster are 1 FB, 1 WR, 1 TE, and 1 ILB... maybe 1 interior OL.

TEs still available that I like: O'Leary (3rd round), Heuerman (3), Shafaat (6), Derby (6)
WRs: Greene (2), Harper (3), Lippett (3), Hardy (3), R. Hall (3), T. Davis (4), Hill (4), Diggs (4), Goodley (4), D. Lewis (5), Worthy (6), Sasser (6)


I bet they had 2nd round grades on all three guys they drafted today.

We still have 2 4s, 2 6s, and a 7.I bet we take a WR and a TE with our 4s, and do one more trade up for another player we like.

This is shaping up to be a really good draft IMO.

Thanks for the depth chart. Makes it easier to envision.

It does make the draft look pretty good.

I wonder if we might run some 2 back with Duke and West, Duke and Crow, or West and Crow as the 2 in the backfield together.

Maybe we won't use a traditional FB?

I think that we only go with 4 TE if we do not keep a FB. I cannot see 4 TE and even 1 FB, let alone 2. I do think that Winston will slot in at RB, though he may have a hard time making the team with the top 3 at the position, plus Draughn, who the team really seemed to like when they added him last year.

I think that we may add another OLB, and I also think that Solomon will get a long look at OLB this year. He came on and played so well late last year that I think he'll get a chance. I don't know if he might be able to swing between ILB and OLB.I really don't now his background all that well.

It is surprising how many spots are pretty well set though.

Lets take a look at the obvious plan by positions set and with depth

QB - Manziel, McCown, and Lewis - Still the most pressing need. The best case scenario is for Manziel to show dramatic improvement. Until this position gets fixed the entire team will suffer.

RB - Crowell, West, Winston, and now Johnson. This position is young and somewhat unproven but has talent and depth. Need a true blocking fullback.

TE - Dray, Barnedge, and Housler. Will not set the world on fire but is not a problem area either. Solid group but no real homerun hitters.

WR - Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins, Gabriel, and Benjamin. Gordon (out for 2015). Without Gordon not game breakers but just like the tight end position solid group but will no real homerun hitters.

OL - Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, Greco, Schwartz, Bowie, and now Erving. This group is set with very good top end talent and depth.

DL - Bryant, Taylor, Hughes, Starks, Winn, Kitchen, and now with Shelton and Cooper. This group is set with talent and depth. Not as good top end talent as the OLine but more depth. Will probably make a trade in August cut down time for a 2016 draft pick by someone made expendable because the team will not keep 8 DLineman on the final 53.

OLB - Kruger, Mingo, Bryant, and now Orchard. Decent group and enough depth for a rotation to keep players fresh.

ILB - Dansby, Robertson, Kirksey, and Carder. Decent group with 3 starter caliber players. Could use another player here for depth.

CB - Haden, T. Williams, Gilbert, K Williams, and Desir. Very solid group at corner. If Gilbert starts to live up to his potential a spectacular group.

S - Whitner, Gipson, Poyer, and Bademosi. Good starters but could use another player here for depth.

It looks to me that the foundation that Pettine and Farmer are building is win in the trenches first and foremost with both lines looking to be set. Then limit the opposition with good pass defense. The missing piece for this team going forward is to find a QB and then play makers.

I would guess that if the team that has been built so far with a good OLine and Running backs on offense. A good DLine, Linebackers, and secondary forms a strong defense. Then after next season they will use the salary cap and draft picks to find a QB and skill players on the outside.

I think the last 2 days were all about solidifying the foundation. Next season will be all about proving that the foundation is in fact in place and can Johnny Manziel be the QB or will they need to go all in on another signal caller.

Nice work Steve!

Do you think they need a FB or Hybrid TE?

Any thoughts Farmer drafting a free safety?

All I can say is that I am terribly disappointed in this draft. I hope I am dead wrong and I apologize for saying, "Screw Farmer and the FO!"

As much as I want to cut my ties with this team, I just can't. I really love and care about the Cleveland Browns ,the fans and all who are on this board regardless of what you may think of me. It is so painful to watch my "perceived" thinking that incompetence reigns in the Front Office and ownership. It truly saddens me.

Heuerman was taken by Denver at 92

NRTU

I'm amazed at the negativity when we haven't even watched these young guys play a down for the Browns.

I'll trust Farmer and the FO because, in all honesty, they know what they are doing and I am just a draftnik.

Like many others have said, if we had build the lines this way from the off in 1999 we wouldnt have had the barren spell we have suffered as a team and fans. You win by foundation, then you add the furnishings and flashy touches. We will run the ball. We will (hopefully) be better at stopping the run and we will control games more as a result.

Also the criticism of the the Erving pick amuses me most. If he graded BPA and we took him, then that's smart. JT, legend that he is, is not getting younger. Mack may or may not stick. I recall so many drafts hoping the day 2 OL would pan out and none ever did and our QBs were battered and our running backs didn't make 1000 yards.

This is the right way. Time will tell if the selections were correct.

I beg to differ...the only OBVIOUS need on that list was QB...that opportunity to do something about it was gone when the 3rd overall pick was on the clock.

WR...how so as in obvious. We got 4 solid WRs 2 with excellent size a fifth who can become good if he recovers from his fear factors (Benjamin) and an elite WR waiting in the wings after this season. We have enough here that can win Championships others have. Got news for you - Load up on Elite WRs it will not make the QB any much better. Mediocre will be Mediocre - you all are in some dream state that getting a WR that is there all the time for all teams to get in so so many rounds...it does not make the teams better. Not to be redundant. Evans was the Cream of last years WRs can't envision a better rookie season. The Bucs who were actually suppose to be an up and coming team. Well so how good did they get and in the Worst Division in football oh right they were picking 1st in this draft. If that isn't testimony to what I'm saying I don't know what is.

We got a very good WR corp. We'll see if the QB situation we got can give them the opportunity to be GOOD.

TE...we don't have a Need at TE. Hey Maxx Williams was my GUY in the 2nd I wanted him bad. But a Need? We picked the kid up from FA yeah its a One year show me contract. But he has game. And we have two solid TEs not great but solid.

What seems to be obvious to you does not make it obvious - I wanted Maxx Williams cause I saw something in him not because we NEED A TE. With him gone I'm not saying ok now who is the next best TE...I wanted him for MAXX.

What is obvious is we had a plan for this draft. You don't have to even agree with the plan. Not everyone does but the Obvious think for me is that we do have a plan and its a pretty darn good one so far.

But all the Grayson fans - Oh we blew it for not taking that 3rd round pick....The Saints found that replacement for Brees??? Really Talking heads on the draft. Cause we know that is where you go for your next Franchise QB...come on yes Wilson, Montana...those are the exceptions.

We don't pick position. The only one we looked at hard..front sideways and every which way was QB not because we lost faith in Manziel but because he didn't solidify the Franchise status. We checked every avenue out there. So cause they didn't materialize we got to pick a QB mid round to later in the draft?

Outside of that QB position there was no NEED. Even the positions we did pick we had guys to play. We just made UPGRADES on what we had.

I don't see failure. Right now we are a better team then we were roster wise from the end of the season last year.

jmho

J

Names added in parenthesis

#12 Shelton - The Browns ranked 32nd out of 32 teams at run defense in 2014. While I liked Brown better, I like this pick. I wish they had gone with Parker and taken Brown with the #19, but then we wouldn't have taken...

#19 Erving - Another huge problem in 2014 was lack of depth at OL, specifically C. Once Mack went down, the OL suffered greatly. Erving's versatility means he can 1) challenge for a starting role, 2) serve as, or force a current starter into an improved 6th lineman, 3) provide instant backup at C, and 4) be able to step in as C if/when Mack leaves after the season.

#43 traded for #51 Orchard - It's always hard to project players from smaller college programs into the NFL, but I really like this kid, and so do many real scouts. And it addressed another glaring need for pass rush, although again WR might have been a better way to go.

#77 Johnson - I have heard that the Browns were set to take Conley, but the Chiefs took him at #76. After Conley, I think there was a drop off at WR, so they went BPA. Johnson adds to the Baby Backs and offers improved hands at the position.

#96 trade up for Cooper - using accumulated picks to climb back into the 3rd to again fortify the defensive line. I like Cooper and this is a good value, but I am more nervous about WR than Dline at this point.

Overall I think they have done a good job of foundation drafting at this point. Lack of WR bothers me, but we still have 5 more picks.

Scott Solomon is in the mix as well.

I really Like this draft. If you compare past drafts with this one, you can see that we are drafting just good solid football players. Whereas in the past it seemed we would just pluck out a guy who seemed flashy whether he fit our team or not. That was the problem. Now we seem to be settling in on just build the foundation and just get good football players, you can add flash later on when your ready. Good Job.

I could be mistaken but I suspect that the average age of the posters who like this draft is relatively older and the average age of posters who hate this draft is relatively young.

On WR, Bowe/Hartline aren't the greatest. But in terms of 2015, I think they'll contribute more than typical rookies would. A bit "safer" as 2015 starters. I see them as free draft picks for "need", but we definitely do need to start developing some better wideouts.

TE/QB few options. In terms of 2015, Not many TEs come out of the draft NFL ready. Maybe we draft a project TE and look towards free agency next year.

I'm not concerned about drafting for 2015. I am questioning some of the guys they gutted this offseason and it appears we may do the same next year (Taylor, Winn, Mack).

I really doubt that. Regardless, what is your point?

j/c

I just really wanted Jaelen Strong in the 3rd round when he was available ... I think he's going to be productive

I know one thing..the Browns offense will be easy to scheme against in 2015.
Farmer knows he doesn't doesn't have a QB worth a darn on the roster.
so he's gonna try to turn the clock back to 1972 and just run run run.
He must have been watching the Dolphins with Greise Kiick Morris.

If the Browns get behind 10 pts they are done.
This is not a offense designed to score alot of points.
Your 2 top WRs had what a combined 5 TDS in 2014?

I see Farmer has a plan unlike Heckert.
I just don't think it will translate to wins.

How come the Browns haven't found a guy that can flip the field and give you favorable field
position if your gonna have a offense that should be on the antiques road show?

The talking heads are lauding the Titans draft after Mariota and DGB. I seem to recall the same talking heads having Savage lauded for moving back to take Quinn.

The press like the flashy names and boom or bust picks. Not saying Mariota or DGB are busts at all but solid picking does not sell web clicks.

I like our draft plenty, others are welcome not to.

I agree. Good teams conduct this type of draft.

NRTU

Exhibit A: Chaun Thompson vs Nate Orchard. Discuss. Or Veikune. Or Robiskie, etc etc.

I know which I'd rather have as a 2nd rounder.

Orchard is a football player. Our team plays football. Not athletics

you should have been here when Robiskie and Veikune was drafted. the love and praise was flowing for Mangini.

I've been here for years, just don't post much

I think I may be misunderstanding this statement a little...

Are you saying they are ignoring something?

This offseason, we had needs to address on both sides of the ball, the MOST GLARING was the 32nd ranked rush defense..not even close to any other aspect really.

So far, they have upgrade with Randy Starks, Danny Shelton and Xavier Cooper..

Next priority, we had a below average Passing game and running game.

So far for the passing game they have upgraded with Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline replacing Miles Austin and Rob Housler replacing Jordan Cameron. Obviously it is yet to be seen whether Housler was a product of the system, or he is actually a downgrade to Cameron. What we do know is that Cameron was fast becoming an injury liability and Housler certainly has Cameron's traits without the injury questions.

Running game, we upgraded a lineman with a first round player that could possibly upgrade 3 of the 5 positions on the line. After Mack's injury last season, it was painfully apparent we had NO capable backups as the line collapsed as the season wore on once he was lost for the season. Erving not only upgrades either of the right side positions, he also gives us the insurance policy needed if Mack is slow to recover from the broken leg. They also drafted the change of pace, receiving RB that was lacking on the roster that will give this offense yet another dimension lacking in year's past.

So far, the only dimension of the 4 phases (not counting special teams) was the pass defense that didn't need a lot of help with upgrades. So far, the only phase not upgraded...yep you guessed it the pass defense..

How can ANYONE argue that Farmer isn't attempting to improve this team?

Core elements were added, others upgraded. This roster, imho, is MUCH improved already over last year's roster at this point of 2014.

You are making me feel old

I understand where you're coming from. The "younger" fans are the NFL Redzone/Fantasy Football generation.

Lots of good points ! With my rose colored spectacles on I agree with lots of comments and the roster breakdown by Steve and Day of the Dawg.

Draft theme? Smart, 'blue collar', high effort, high character football players. Heavy emphasis on the trenches. Controlling the line of scrimmage.

If you don't like the plan - that's fine. If your guy didn't get picked, I get that you might be miffed. But the derogatory, self serving "I'm right right right" comments that pepper these threads is nauseating. . . . I would have tried to trade up for Williams. At 12 I would have taken Parker and hoped Shelton dropped (he would not have, i read that the Saints would have taken him) ... I don't think I would have taken Brown at 19 - probably Dupree.... None of that happened.

I like that Farmer is sticking to his and Pettine's plan. Regardless of what you think of Farmer ... I see Pettine in virtually all these picks. They seem to exemplify what Pettine wants out of his football players. Dysfunction in Berea ???? Apparently not based on this draft so far. Reading between the lines I see HC and GM on the same dang page on how to build your team.

More - the plan seems to be to make the QB as easy as possible. The better the running game, the easier it will be for the QB to succeed. . . does that mean JM or McCown are guaranteed to be lights out? Of course not. Does it mean that the Browns will run the ball at will if we have atrocious QB play? Of course not ..... But as others have pointed out. Offseason QB options were extremely limited. After the Titans took Mariota - there isn't a QB to take as an immediate upgrade over what we have. . . . . so - trying to maximise the QB's chance of success with this draft is smart.

What this draft is not about - sexy, splashy, big name picks. It's not about ignoring what the players did on the football field and changing grades based on combine and pro day works. Gee - I know some of the haters would have loved it if this had been the case last year???? You know who would be in the roster if they had done this last year huh?? Maybe this is a year late on the QB front - but at least its the right thing now.

I said it elsewhere - I have no idea if these guys will work out and be starters in the NFL. I don't know whether they are going to be good, bad, great .... I do know that if the team had been built this way from 1999 - chances are we'd have had a far far better football team to watch the last 15 years.

We have two big, young WRs on the roster. Not sure how they are developing, but Farmer must see something good in their progress. Thoughts?

Rodney Smith (6'5", 220 lbs, 4.51 - 40 yard dash):
2013 Combine: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/rodney-smith?id=2539674
Highlights: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p-sZDv0W0s4

Kevin Cone (6'3", 216 lbs, 4.41 - 40 yard dash):
1 highlight: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v0mNC2ev40k
Profile: http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=85465&draftyear=2011&genpos=WR

For all of the front 7 help that they give the team, the team had a lot of front 7 help in the recent past.
Krueger, and Desmond Bryant as significant free agent signings, along with Winn, Hughes, and Armonty Bryant in the draft.

Ray Farmer, or is it Pettine, (someone from the team) has been saying on multiple occasions that there is going to be competition on the roster. How much competition do Marlon Moore, Taylor Gabriel, Travis Benjamin, or maybe another have to face, even to make the roster.

When the games start, sometimes the other team is going to get turnovers for touchdowns and early leads of 17 points or more. At that point, the run only offense is puts the team in a real disadvantage. At that SAME point, the negative point differential doesn't allow you to utilize your pass rush on D, because the other team doesn't need to pass to catch up.

So if they had a significant, field stretching, quick score opportunist, to take a lead, then there would be a scenario for wins.

: defense built to play with a lead
: offense unable to get them a lead

Rodney Smith is intriquing, but I'd like to see him use his size more. Love the size, length, huge hands, but the highlights didn't really show them. Didn't really see any jump balls, contested catches, or much physicality. Not saying he can't do those things just didn't see them in those highlights. Hopefully you're right.

I'm not that bummed about not getting WR mainly because we still don't have a QB to get the ball to our WRs.

Maybe some of us believe the 32nd ranked run defense can best be addressed by getting an offense that can take a lead, force other teams to have to pass to catch up.

If I'm the Steelers, and I'm up 21-3, or 21-6, then 21-9, All I have to do is Run all day.

What's the downside, you're going to force me to punt and get the ball back in 3 plays?

The Browns in 2013, couldn't beat 3 teams with injuries in their secondary, if I rememeber right.

Early in the off season Pettine was quoted in multiple articles that the intent was to get the defense to an elite level since it was closest to being a finished product. It was all laid out pretty straightforwardly.

I'm certain I can find one or more of these articles if you'd like? The fan base was not mislead.

If I was a defensive coach working for a franchise that fires head coaches every other year, I'd try to make sure the defense was taken care of first, too.

In the event he is searching for work next offseason, McCown can be a good excuse. The 32nd run defense can not.

I like Pettine, just keeping it real.

I am done questioning our FO I am going to trust them ...

Your free to interpret the motives any way you wish. I'm unconcerned with the motives. What I know is they are doing what they said they would.

I'm 32 and love this draft. I don't think I'm old.

"Evans was the Cream of last years WRs can't envision a better rookie season. The Bucs who were actually suppose to be an up and coming team. Well so how good did they get and in the Worst Division in football oh right they were picking 1st in this draft. If that isn't testimony to what I'm saying I don't know what is."
====================================================

Apparently many GM's of the NFL disagree.

In 2014 twelve receivers were taken in the first 2 rounds. ( 5 in the first).

So far in this years draft:
9 receivers in the first two rounds ( 6 in the first)
====================================================

Saying that Evans had the best year for a receiver and because the Bucs won two games does not illustrate a thing.

Who was the quarterback?

Good receivers help good quarterbacks win games.

.

Just read the dang quote/interview I posted towards the top of this thread. As I stated off of it...here's the answers to your questions

I totally agree with this...





Teams didn't want Montana because he was small. Teams didn't want Wilson because he was short. Teams didn't want Brady because he was skinny.

But I think we've learned that just because a QB is not a physical specimen doesn't mean he can't play. Those three have done pretty well for themselves without having the physical stature.

But Grayson, Hundley, etc are not passed by because they are short or any other physical concern. The concern is they lack skills, especially reading defenses/coverages at the Pro Level. Their problem is the mental aspect, not their stature as it was with Montana, Brady and Wilson.

To take a QB in later rounds just because you need a QB and you think you can develop him into your Franchise QB based simply on the fact that you've heard his name a lot leading up to the draft is nothing but wishful thinking and fools gold.

Further, to get mad because we didn't draft one of those late round "gems" and hate on draft and the GM because of it is silly as hell.

aaah, one of the more intelligent ones with mature restraint. Quit showing off.

Yeah, for all you guys who are disappointed that we didn't draft a WR take a look at these players and pretend we just drafted them.

Better now?

Lucky for us, we have Manziel who is small, short, and skinny(ish). Maybe he'll surpass all three. *waves pom poms*

TL, you just keep getting better and better.

Good stuff.

Clearly we should pick up the Browns D/ST in fantasy this year.

It illustrates that a great WR does little to increase your win total.

The Bucks were 2-14 in 2014. They had 2, count 'em 2, 1000 yard receivers. Where are the wins?



But good receivers do little to help bad quarterbacks win games.


They also had arguably the worst OL in the league.

You think they need OL players?

Instead they bring in a 1000 yd receiver from FA and draft another 1000 yd receiver. Again, where are the wins?

You know, I think we're onto something.

Looking at it like that... we're in great shape...

Glad you ate that Snickers bar

"But good receivers do little to help bad quarterbacks win games.


They also had arguably the worst OL in the league.

You think they need OL players?

Instead they bring in a 1000 yd receiver from FA and draft another 1000 yd receiver. Again, where are the wins?"

========================================================

Please what is your point?

The Bucs were a bad team?
=========================================

21 receivers were taken in the first two rounds in 2104, and 2015.

Were they drafted there to improve the teams?

Are you trying to make a point that elite receivers don't help teams win? Or, they make no difference? What?

Football is a team game. Great teams have balance. They do many things well. Last I checked passing is a large part of the game.

What happens on pass plays? Linemen block, quarterback throws, receivers catch the ball.

Would you rather a have a average receiver or a pro bowler?

Uh - isn't EVERY player drafted to help improve the team?

I just have not seen a logical attempt to improve the team in areas of need.

Comments about the FA WR's and TE are do not provide any comfort.

This is as bad as the Butch Davis days, and although I normally try not to lob the bombs, I am frustrated that this team will go a second year without improving the team in an area of need, while losing one of the few playmakers on offense and replacing him with a cast off with no demonstrated level of success in the NFL.

I feel as though Farmer peed in my Wheaties this year.

Why disregard how they addressed WR and TE needs in free agency and run defense, pass rush, the secondary, and o line in the draft? The FO addressed a TON of needs in a short amount of time. They have done a lot of good work this off-season, IMO. Realistically, what else could they have done? I think people have extremely unrealistic expectations.

Link



Link

Tried to find it online but haven't been able to. On NFL Networks broadcast of the draft they had a fan pole showing 86% of twitter responses have a positive view of the draft.

The header for the report was #nfldraft fan approval?

Tell me what position was drafted more than receivers in the first two rounds?

Answer: None

I saw that as well.

It is not a reason to change opinion.

j/c

Okay, I've been reading all of this. And there are things I simply don't understand, or maybe I do. There were some players I liked and hoped we'd draft, but we didn't. I liked Jalen Strong and thought he would be good value at the pick. I liked Maxx Williams and also thought he was a good value at the pick.

But what I didn't do was something I haven't done for so many years prior. That's to try to study endlessly and make myself feel that I was somehow smarter than NFL GM's. I did have stronger feelings about players I felt would be overvalued. Like Bud Dupree, Mariota and Bryce Petty. Dupree may end up being a good player, but I certainly didn't see him worthy of a top 10 or the #12 draft pick. It seems most NFL GM's agreed with me on both Petty and Dupree.

To sum that all up, I didn't have a set agenda or have some kind of "man love" for certain players in this draft. It allowed me to watch and see a plan unfold. All in all I like the plan. I will probably feel differently if they continue to ignore the O next year and continue what I see as a heavy defensive strategy in the draft. I mean after all, at some point things have to even out in terms of investment.

But for this year I can see what they did and why they did it. It's a plan and a strategy that makes sense. While I have very little confidence in JFF, you simply don't throw away a first round draft pick after two starts and seven quarters of football. There really weren't any logical scenarios for a change there that made any sense.

I believe we helped stop the run, bettered our backfield in the run game and added a very talented and versatile OL player. No matter what anyone believes, the game is won and lost in the trenches.

Yes we will most likely need a QB. And yes we may need an upgrade at the WR position. But we are better at the WR position than we have been since our return with the additions of Bowe and Hartline added in the FA market. They are both something we were lacking. Big targets with good hands.

Now that doesn't mean I'm giving a big thumbs up to this draft. On the surface the strategy was sound. I understand their plan. I endorse such a plan. How the picks pan out and produce will be the real test. No matter what anyone says and no matter your opinions, nobody can say for sure how that will work out.

If their talent rises to the surface and they end up being great players early in our draft and productive players with the later picks, I will be thrilled. If they flail and underperform, I will not be. But only time will answer those questions.

JMHO

I actually thought the Browns had a good draft..this is how thy should have drafted last year..I would have taken different players maybe..but they got depth..one thought that was said by someone..Farmer is finishing the defense..and we don't see wide outs because he still doesn't have a FQB.

So, that means a lot of teams had questions about their receivers. Apparently the Browns didn't?

This is the puzzling/frustrating part. It can be interpreted both good and bad. He obviously missed a lot last year and went with a lot of boom/bust players or small school hypes, instead of trying to build a solid foundation, which he did this season.

Too little, too late is what a cynic like me will say. Otoh, it shows that he maybe evaluated himself and his work and tried to correct it. Or it could be that he was scared to make mistakes this time and went with consensus picks mostly? I don't know. What I do know is that he notably picked from bigger schools and conferences this time. I do think that both Shelton and Orchard especially were still industry hype induced picks

The 3rd round was a thing of beauty in a lot of ways, I will give him that. And he gets an extra tip of the cap for Ifo E-O.

Overall it's not still far from an A draft, but it has me back on the fecne again lurking. We will see

I kinda agree. Had he built it last year he could have taj\ken more risk this year.THINK HE FELT he had to build it and not take risks this time.
Plus they lost too many players at key positions.

Risk in last years draft?

Gilbert, consensus top tier DB, risk= inconclusive
Manziel, unconventional player at the QB position, risk= major
Bitonio, evaluated as a top talent, risk= negligible
West, small school prospect-big production, risk= moderate
Kirksey, generally undervalued player scheme fit perfect for Browns, risk= moderate
Desir, small school prospect, well scouted for fit, risk= moderate

There's hardly any risks associated with UDFA's Crowell,Williams or Nelson or waiver pick ups like Solomon.That's all gravy

I am with you. The final straw will be the exit of Farmer and Pettine without having reached the playoffs. It is just brutal to watch this team be one of the doormats of the league. One can only invest so much into a bad product. All I am willing to spend at this time is my time. Not one dollar will be spent on this team until they are a sustained competitive team. 45 years with the last 15 just being down right awful. I could care less what others here think. I love NFL football and just ONCE I would like the Browns to be the toast of the league.

Gilbert wasn't the consensus top DB. Brugler had him as a 2nd round talent.

IMO, Gilbert was overdrafted because of his physical ability. If the light ever turns on, he can become a total stud. Kind of a big IF right now, though.

This year, he's going to have to earn his spot on the field. And the year after, with Ifo still on the team, he is REALLY going to have to earn it.

Apparently many GM's of the NFL disagree.
In 2014 twelve receivers were taken in the first 2 rounds. ( 5 in the first).
So far in this years draft:
9 receivers in the first two rounds ( 6 in the first)

The more you guys try to make your case the more you are making my point. Last two years 21 WRs taken in the first 2 rounds.

WRs are not a rare commodity. Whenever you need that LUXURY Pick its is going to be there. And college teams are throwing more n more so that every year there will be opportunities.

Those teams who have a Franchise QB and not much to build have that Luxury to take a WR.
Those teams who have nots are wasting picks cause it doesn't get them ANYWHERE!

But thanks again Bonefish for making my point.
The way this teams is to improve is get AWESOME ON DEFENSE...if you cannot see this what else can I say.
Yeah once the first two picks were made a thought about QB upgrade was out the window. Manziel is still an unknown with untapped talent. Got to play that card this season.

But the way teams can get into the playoffs is build an awesome Defense with a good running game - which will be tough with every team playing run. But we do have an OL to make the difference!

You guys and your need for WRs is disappointing for educated football fans.

btw...now love for our Big WR we got late in the draft?

Exactly EO, an awesome defense and a stout, solid running game. Can't everyone see that is what we are doing. We have a deep d-line and now we have that good o-line with some depth there and with our running backs. We had a very good draft and did exactly what we had to do. Our lb's and secondary also have more talent AND depth. We now have to find our qb but this team is positioned to start winning IMO.

Now if only we could get some respect and have some calls go our way (or at least not lopsidedly against us) we'd be set.

Agreed Grimm. A fair shake once in a while would help. The league wants to see their fair haired teams win. Unfortunately we're not one of them, but that's a whole other topic.

jc...

Just watched the post draft presser with Farmer and Pettine together. Man, Farmer was the most relaxed and calm I have ever seen. He actually looked comfortable in front of the camera, talked at a reasonable pace, made intelligent comments, and generally made sense. I can't say this of any other of Farmer's pressers. Actually gave me a good feeling. It showed me what Haslam sees in the guy. He actually appeared affable.

Pettine looked tired and a bit disinterested, but he was his usual honest self, and I like that.

I have a good feeling about these two. They actually make you feel like we can compete without a QB. They are going to coach the hell out of these guys and demand a lot. We should be competitive.

If Manziel can achieve what they thought he could, we may do alright. If not, and it's a rough season, stay the course! These guys have a plan and an identity they are bringing to this team, and that's a good thing.

Agreed. The more I see and hear Farner and Pettine the more I like them. we may be seeing the start of something special here and I was never the most optimistic Browns fan.

From all that I have heard/read, they tried hard to land a QB. They tried to get Bradford out of St. Louis, again out of Philadelphia, and attempted to trade up for Petty but the Jets beat them to the punch...

There are many good comments here and I will admit that I was frustrated with the draft.

I get the need to improve the defense.

What I don't understand is an unwillingness to discount areas of team weakness in order to promote a broader agenda. Whether or not the Browns management are genuine in their internal assessment of team need remains to be seen.

The team still does not have a QB, WR or TE. We know that the QB situation was unlikely to be addressed with this draft. But a back up alternative to a risky QB situation was not addressed and may be another lost opportunity. Opportunities to replace players that have left or been suspended were lost as well, as the players signed in FA have known limits.

There were a lot of players drafted. I hope that there are gems in there.

I wish Farmer well, but hope that he refrains from establishing a m/o for his team vision and focuses on doing what is best for the team.

We don't know what we have at QB. There weren't any amazing options available to us. We can win games with the McCown that only threw one pick in Chicago.

At WR, we added Bowe and Hartline. He addressed the position. Cooper and White were gone and the team thought Parker was soft. Mayle fits the run first mentality the team wants and has some upside.

At TE, we have a solid blocker in Dray who fits what we want to do. Housler could be a better fit in our O as a Cameron replacement than he was for Bruce Arians scheme. Barnidge is a solid 3rd tight end/utility guy. Telfer has potential if he can get healthy.

With respect to QB, you are making my point. We don't know, so we do nothing to improve the situation.

With respect to WR, my point stands. Bowe and Hartline are simply serviceable receivers and the opportunity for any improvement was lost.

With respect to TE, the position is a downgrade from last year. Telfer is more of the Dray/Barnidge mold.

"You guys and your need for WRs is disappointing for educated football fans. "
========================================================

Sorry to insult your intelligence.

Maybe understanding that selecting players to build a defense does exclude addressing a deficiency on offense.

Seems like there are plenty of yards, first downs, and touchdowns that are the direct result of receivers catching passes.

I believe that I have heard that it is a passing league.

There must be a reason other teams draft receivers in the first two rounds?

I see the Ravens and Steelers made moves to address the offensive needs.

See any Browns receivers:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingTouchdowns

Actually I have no problem with what the Browns did in the draft except that they could have selected BPA in the second or third round and gotten better.

After Winston and Mariota, who do you see that is better than McCown now? I see no one. Tampa and Tennessee weren't trading the picks.

Bowe and Hartline fit our offensive plans. Cooper and White were gone. We didn't think Parker could be physical. Mayle fits what we want to do, and his spot on our board matched where he fell in the draft. Gordon comes back next year.

Name one player at TE that blocks better than Dray. I don't see one. Maybe Boyle, but he's even slower than the TE's we've got. Cameron was hurt all last year. Our other players are the same. How are we worse? Housler could show up in Cameron's role. Name a TE that has ever stretched the seam in a Bruce Arian's offense. Fleener looks pretty good in Indy, he did squat with Arians. Malcolm Johnson could develop into a Charles Clay like undersized TE even if I see him as more of a Marcel Reese FB.

From the Browns perspective, They did.

I liked tom heckert but thought he was foolish trading up for a RB and weeden at 22 it was foolish. I ripped savage to shred for his picks like Wimbley and Travis Wilson. I ripped Mangini for his horrible draft. I ripped Lombardi for his repeating of the kam wimbley mistake.

I didnt have an issue with Gilbert other than I thought he gave up to much space. Thought it was a relatively safe pick because of his athleticism. I had manziel as my 2nd QB after Teddy's proday killed his stock in my eyes. Loved the west pick and he hit it out of the park with his undrafteds.

I thought we vastly overpaid for McCown and Bowe. Not a big fan of either. Loved hartline, Starks and the corner from GB as a stopgap.

Its not about having faith in him, it is about judging each individual decision and how those separate parts fit the vision he and Pet have for this team.

I wanted Parker but Shelton is a beast.

I like Erving but i didnt think we would take him and he would go 15 to 25 with a team needing a center. We announced him as a guard and i think he starts there and may kick outside if he can beat out schwartz. This was a great pick.

Other picks he made I liked as well. Others i did not like. Some i dont know enough about to have a good opion of them. What he did do was drafted throw back mentality to the game of football. These were all tough physical players who are getting it done off the field as well.

If u see stupid call him on being stupid like the Texting nonsense. He didnt draft a big name receiver but he did bring 2 in during FA. If his plan isnt working rip him for it but we brought in some good players and our team improved.

I think the best part of are plan is that every game from here out is a battle of toughness.

They did go BPA in the 3rd round and, actually, I think that'll be like last year's second round. Johnson and Cooper are home run picks.

That being said...I could go either way on Orchard. If they are correct about his production carrying over into the NFL, then it's an easy pass. But his HWS measurable may hinder him at the next level.

Personally, I think Orchard will benefit on playing in the NFL game more because his lateral quickness won't be exposed too terribly much. Where he excels is power and good technique, both of which happen to be good things that tend to carry over to the NFL.

As for WR...the team is obviously going to be run based. Pittsburgh and Baltimore are absolutely not run based anymore. That's why they went with a WR, because they have a QB that can utilize WR'ers more than we can. Why would we draft a WR when the Browns don't have a QB that can really utilize him as a talent? Especially when they have an elite offensive line, get the best runners you can and try to beat teams over the top.

I understand the frustration, and some of it is warranted. The fact that we still may not have the QBOFT on our team is disconcerting. But it's like Pat Mac said on ESPN, if the Browns had a good QBOFT, this team would be really good right now.

+1

I think you are being overly pesimistic. I would agree the team is going to struggle 3 or 4 scores down. We probably aren't built for fast scoring in a situation like that.

But an offense that's unable to get a lead? How so - are we never going to score? If the D is good, how many points per game do we need to win? 17? 14 maybe on a few good weeks.

Everything hinges on the QB play - not the WR position. Hartline, Bowe (who I much more down on than most) and Hawkins/Gabriel is not an awful recieiving corps?

As for competition at every position ... unlikely to be at "every" position regardless of best intentions? And who is to say competiton is a good thing in every single case?!! We have a QB competition (that I am guess we all hope JM wins) but is it good that we have a competition between two such inadequate (to date) NFL players? Hardly. We don't have a lot of competition at ILB - or safety. I don't see that being such a big issue. If McCown is as decent as Hoyer was last year (and Hoyer was pretty darn average for the first half and well below average for the second half of the season) - we'll be fine.

With a weaker roster than this we will have next year - we beat the Steelers and the Bengals ... all depending on the QB - but we can do the same again in 2015.

I cracked up when Pettine said he was comfortable with the QB's he had on this roster... That's honesty?
Regardless, I like Pettine, but so sad he is in a bad organization.

I cracked up when folks thought we were trading for Mariotta and 2 firsts for a Bradford that is still on cructches. the best one however was when people thought we were done with Johnny after 7 quarters of football. That was sooo funny.

I am not afraid of complimenting the Browns for moves that yielded team improvement.

Last year the running game was improved with the addition of West, Crow and Hardesty,(before he burnt the bridge).

Last year the pass defense appeared to be better, but the level of QB pressure was less.

FA's last year was Whitner for Ward and Dansby for Jackson. I think that Dansby was an upgrade over Jackson.

Injuries slowed the offensive and defensive lines. The loss of Mack was probably in the range of 4 to 6 points per game. You can look up the point production before and after his injury to see that there was a noticeable drop in offensive points per game. That was not anticipated.

The run defense did need work. I get it. There is no problem with the Shelton Pick. I also get the Erving (Mack contingency plan) and Orchard picks.

Now the draft last year, there are two things to consider... What is the need, and how is the need addressed. Gilbert was a reasonable pick both in terms of need and response. Manziel was a risk/reward pick and the Browns publicly stated that there was a need to address the QB situation after the failed attempt with Weeden. As far as Manziel is concerned, as of now we have seen the risk, and none of the reward. The thing that was lacking last year was a response to the Gordon situation which was known, and essentially ignored. Austin was the patch.

So going into the draft this year we had the following needs.

DL (run)
DL/LB (pass)
QB
WR
TE
Special Teams...


We know that the FA marker did not substantially change things (Rubin and Sheard are gone and we have Starks). Austin is gone and replaced by Hartline and Bowe. Bowe will essentially be the replacement for Gordon this year.

Cameron was a net loss, although not a great as it may seam on the surface as he was often injured.

Thus my critique involves two issues 1) identifying needs and the ability of the organization to address those needs by FA or Draft. The second 2) involves the ability of the organization to identify the correct player to address a need.

My concern is more with item 1 than it is with item 2.

The comment that discounted the need for a WR is concerning if it results in an approach that ignores the critique of a past mistake in the hope that it will simply go away.

My counter for this would be, as follows:

We filled every one of the listed needs except for QB and WR. In FA, we signed two outside WR'ers to fill in holes. Bowe may replace Gordon and Hartline replace Austin, but not only did they replace them, they improved upon them.

While I will never say that the WR core is done, I will say that it isn't missing a ton. Bowe and Hartline are mediocre, good enough to play possession ball. Gabriel and Hawkins have both shown to be more than adept at the slot. Do we need a primary receiver? Yes and no. The offense could use it, but I woulnd't classify it as a dire need.

Number two...look, the franchise is clearly going to give Johnny the rope to hang himself. If he provides no substance this year, and shows no hope that he can be the QBOTF, then this is a glaring hole that the Browns clearly wiffed on. However, if he does turn it around, and by all accounts he's work harder now that he did probably all of last season, then he's probably got a shot.

It's tough, because QB is a total unknown at this point. Either Manziel takes the reigns or McCown fills the role to the best of his abilities and 2016 is a new year. But the Browns couldn't give up on Manziel that early.

Whether it was a totally smart plan to hitch your wagon to Manziel in the first place, that's totally fair.

As for the plan for the team overall, the best way to mitigate damage that you don't have a QB or an elite WR is to be able to run the ball when you want. Clearly this is what the offense is setting up an identity for. Run the ball, keep the game close, and seal the deal at the end.

Will it work? No idea. But it's a really good plan, one that many teams have followed for years *Seattle, early 2000's Baltimore, Pittsburgh until about '09, New York Jets, ect...*

Exactly !!!

+1

From where I sit we've made significant strides to solve the DL-run and the DL-pass needs of the the team. I don't accept that our ST were particularly needy. Some of the role players drated this year will also improve that unit.

No arguement that the QB position needs an answer. The WR corp is a work in progress. We have a short term answer at TE signed for 1 year.

I think our special teams unit is garbage. Punter sucks, long snapper sucks, and kicker sucks and they are all better than our return units.

I didn't mean give the impression that our special team's were elite. Here are our league wide rankings in the relevant categorizes: (NFL.com)

Kicking, #2
Field Goals, #17 (t)
Kick Returns #28
Punting #3

I think our kick coverage and our punt coverage are decent. Our return ability can be improved. With 12 picks some of the drafted players will have to contribute initially on special teams.

We signed a new long snapper to "compete" with Yount. Lanning is not good and neither is Hartley. It seems like Lanning will be back. Who knows who our kicker will be.

I am hoping Duke Johnson can be a good returner and/or Benjamin can overcome his fear of punt returing.

There were no staring level QB available to us in this draft. This was an awful year to need a QB, unless you held the top 1-2 pick. My favorite was Mannion, and I think that he might have the ability to start in the NFL. I don't know how well he will do though. The Browns FO evidently felt that none of the QN, once you got past the top 2, were worth drafting where they had an opportunity to do so. Farmer said that he will not overdraft a QB just to take one, and I think that is a good philosophy. If you don't feel that a guy can become a starter, then take a better player at a different position.

We could have taken a WR, and that is obvious to all. With the comments that Parker's mother made, it seems as though he did not want to come here, and if he made that clear in his interviews, and who knows what happened there, or if they did not feel that he was committed to being great.

There were other receivers they could have taken .... but they stayed true to their board. We can disagree with their board, but it is very clear that this is exactly what they did. They took the players at the top of their board, regardless of position. They did take a receiver, and he looks like a guy who could develop into a starting quality player. We have Bowe and Hartline, but we also have Hawkins and Gabriel. (who were pretty darn good last year) We also have Benjamin, who should be completely recovered from his ACL. We'll see what we have here.

TE is already a position of strength in my opinion. I really like the addition of Housler as our receiving TE. I think that he will fill the role that Cameron played, and will do so well.

It is obvious what the plan was in this draft. We are putting together a strong team. We added a huge NT, who should help us stop the run. We added a OL, who was not my favorite pick, but I can see why they took him. We added speed on both offense and defense. Most importantly, we took players who fit.

I see us being a 9 win team this year, and that will be a huge accomplishment. We will play strong defense, and will run the ball effectively. We will limit QB play to limit mistakes. We will look like we did at the start of last year, and we will be better on defense.

I am extremely excited about this coming year. I wish I could create a great QB for this team, but that is beyond my ability. Our best hope is that one falls to us, like Roethlisberger did to Pittsburgh, or Marino did to Miami.

Just my $0.02.

"In sum, the Browns added seven defensive players --
two DL,
two LBs,
three DBs

-- and five on offense --
RB,
two TEs,
WR,
OL."

Hopefully the Giants stink really bad and decide to rebuild, letting Eli become a free agent.

We can dream!

Y town,

I had no expectation of finding a QB to play this year in the draft. That was a FA issue that was addressed with McCown. The only time McCown had success was in Chicago with superior offensive talent.

My comment is strictly related to that of a developmental prospect that could be a plausible replacement for Manziel, if things do not turn out. (The Jets went this route, even that Saints and Rams.

It is the most important position in the game. There is no plan b, the Browns will be starting over again.

We can discuss the flavor, bet Petty, Grayson, and Mannion are off the board.

Like I said, I liked Mannion, but IIRC, he went really early in the draft.

Grayson went at pick 75, which I fond amazing. Mannion went next at 89.

We added Duke Johnson, who I think will be a great weapon for us. Grayson was already off the board by then. Mannion was off the board by the time we picked at 96. As much as I liked Mannion, I would not have taken him in the middle of the 3rd round.

Next up were guys like Patty and Hundley, neither of whom I liked at all. They have the physical ability, but need to be completely "built" as an NFL QB. We already have a guy we are building in Manziel, who we invested heavily in.

The 2 guys I might have considered were off the board a round before I would have considered them.

We could have drafted a guy with absolutely no chance (OK, maybe a 0.05% chance) of becoming even a solid NFL starter. What would that have gained us though?

We have 2 guys who have been NFL backups, and occasional starters. We have Shaw, who has the brain and no arm. Then we have Manziel, who is the key to our QB spot. Either he is going to develop this year, or we look for a QB in next year's draft. This year's draft was a horrible draft in which to need a QB.

I think we are building a defense to keep us in games. This will give Manziel, or whoever comes after him if he fails, time to grow and learn.

In the past, many of our new QBs were playing games from behind, and you just don't want to put games into the hands of an inexperienced QB on a regular basis.

Build a stout defense, keep games close, and you will always have a chance.

I keep hearing the same sad song and dance...The Browns FAILED to bring in a receiver to take the top off the defense..

What they don't take into consideration is that they have those types of players on the roster already..

They have Andrew Hawkins who runs a 4.34
They have Travis Benjamin who runs a 4.31
They have Taylor Gabriel who runs a 4.30
They have Phil Bates who runs a 4.48 at 6'1" 220 lbs
They have Rodney Smith who runs a 4.43 at 6'4" 225lbs

Now add to these players above, who have the capability to "take the top off the defense", they added veterans in Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline who have proven they can run routes in this league to win against a defense.

I have said this before, but all we have to do is have everyone do their job and this can be a very effective offense. I feel even better about those sentiments with the additions of Cameron Erving and Duke Johnson.

I personally had Jaelen Strong rated above Erving, but it is APPARENT I am missing something as 32 PROFESSIONAL scouts and GMs have him rated drastically lower than I did...I am glad they took a lineman whom they had rated higher, rather than reach on a WR out of perceived need.

Irish,

Taking the "top-off" has become a over used media buzz word. They used the same term here in St. Louis. Fans here are not happy Rams took Gurley over a receiver. I simply leave it, but if I were a Rams fan, I'd be happy camper.

Really the problem isn't lack of receivers. In order to expose the safety, offense must allow time for the receiver to get down field. QBs don't throw a deep ball on a whim to easy for a pick. How does an offense buy time? They can design play-action plays. They can build up an offense line. They have a QB who can scramble.

What do the Browns have? Easy...OL. Bowe and Hawkins both have good hands and good play-action receivers. They have good RBs. If you do the math, someone is getting single coverage. Can either Josh or Johnny find the open receiver? Here lies the big question.

Last year Browns proved their receivers were serviceable. I think they needed a little more help. Adding Bowe and Heartline will make it very tough on teams to single or zone coverage allowing defense line to pin their ears.

What I thought our biggest weakness was at WR was large targets. Guys who could be more physical. I believe they helped address that problem with the additions of Bowe and Hartline. Would that have been my ideal scenario? No, but it's not like the issue was ignored.

KI am really curious to see if Rod Smith becomes anything at all.

The Broncos once took an undrafted receiver named Rod Smith and turned him into a superstar ..... let's hope we can do the same.

I look at this way. Receivers can't do it alone. It takes a support cast. I think it is almost as hard finding the alpha receiver as it is finding your franchise QB. Teams who build their receiving staff with specialist, such as New Orleans and Green Bay, do rather well.

For the future, Browns need a replacement for Bowe and Heartline. Mayle looks like a Bowe's replacement. I assume Farmer addresses Heatline's position next year.

Who knows maybe Gordon returns. Now this receiver corp looks worlds better with no huge first or second round investment. If Gordon doesn't work, you get your alpha receiver. With the players on board, his transition to the NFL would be a heck of a lot easier, and offense is still functional and not dependent on this guy. Maybe get lucky like Pittsburgh and get a Antonio Brown look alike.

(I responded to eotab in another thread, but decided it really belonged in this tread...so I transplanted.)

I may be new to the board Tab, but I'm not new to being a Browns fan. I grew up listening to (mostly radio, televised games were rare in the early 60's) Jim Brown hitting the line like a mack truck and carrying 2-3 tacklers for 5 yards, struggling to get up, limping back to the huddle...then hitting the line again like a mack truck, carrying tacklers for another 5 yards. I know the frustration, especially since the return. I realize many fans, even die-hard fans, are frustrated and impatient for results. They want an end to the suffering...so do I. But I also recognize that fixing this franchise can't be done overnight, or even in 2 years. Too many years of 1 regime drafting players for their system, only to have the system changed by a new regime every other year, resulting in mismatched players and/or players who don't fit the new scheme. The only way to get past this is to stick with a regime long enough to put a system in place and let it and the players settle in.

What I see now is something different. I see a team of Farmer & Pettine who have a vision and a plan to make this team great. It's not a quick fix, adding a QB here or a WR there. It's a rebuild from the ground up. Whether they can succeed remains to be seen. But they deserve the time to prove out. While many fans are frustrated with the seemingly perpetual series of bad team after bad team, I am frustrated by fans who are simply too impatient to let things work out. They've seen the same things I have, but they still pass negative judgement at the first mistakes, ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. They act like they've never made mistakes, never been able to recover from them to go on to be productive. Winning isn't about not making mistakes, it's about overcoming them.

Look around the league at the perennial powerhouse teams, that are contending year after year. What they have in common is continuity. They all have regimes who have been in place for years. Oh they might change OC or DC, even a HC from time to time as they move on to better jobs. But the systems remain intact. That's what this franchise needs, and Farmer/Pettine, in my opinion, give us the best chance to do that that we've had in years.

No offense and I am not picking on you, so please do NOT take it personal, but do you know how many freaking times I have read that since 1999?

No, you don't.........and I don't either, because it has been more times than I can count and I am a Math and Science teacher.

I have seen others post the same stuff about this year's draft. They are just meaningless words to give us hope. It's important to have hope, but past hopes have led to only more failures, disappointments, and frustrations.

Put it this way..........so many homers say that you have to wait 3 years to properly evaluate a draft when guys are not considered a good pick or perform poorly in the first year, yet the same guys who say that can somehow give a glowing evaluation of a regime long before the same three years have expired.

Sorry, I ain't buying it.

This has been the most rational draft I can remember us having. You can see what they saw in the players with respect to their vision for the team. We didn't reach on a QB or trade up in the 1st for a running back. We didn't take guys with any red flags until the later rounds where it makes sense. We shouldn't have any work ethic/diva issues this year. And they're still all great players with production that stacks up with the best. We didn't pick a receiver that doesn't fit us. We didn't gamble a high pick on DGB. We're still a QB away from being truly elite, but there wasn't a sure fire guy available, and we got guys who can help us compete without one.

Of course, it's all on paper at this point. We'll have to wait to see them on the field before we really know anything for sure. But, for a generally pretty pessimistic guy, I'm feeling pretty optimistic about the season.

this is probably the most thought out draft we have had since 1999, we stuck to the board(so it seems) and we are rewarded with solid football players (hopefully)

Preach it brother!...

I'm not buying it either. Now I'm not saying they will be a failure either and I don't see you saying that here. But when weighing what appears on the surface to be pluses and minuses to this point, there is no clear indication this regime will be an outstanding successes.

From reading what you have been posting lately, I believe you see things much the way I do. Last year the first round was a joke but they did add some talent later. Not that top tier talent you find in the first round, but Botonio was damned good and others added some talent. Nothing outstanding. Then there was text gate which was pure stupidity. So going into this draft, I had some major doubts.

This draft, on paper only, looks better. Better character guys. Guys I consider good "football players". Nothing I see as big reaches early in the draft. So while I still have grave doubts, I do see some improvements over last years draft and see some hope for improvement moving forward.

But it's far too early to tell. Continuity is a wonderful thing if it equates to improvement. While I do understand the point people make about continuity, I feel it does bear pointing out that none of the regimes of our past since 1999 have gone on to do great things elsewhere with the lone exception of Bruce Arians which was our OC from 2001-2003 under Mangini.

So on the surface, it appears we could have held continuity with a variety of coaches from our past and never done anything successful. Not saying it may have not worked, but there's certainly no evidence that it would have.

I'm all for giving this FO and coaching staff some time. But just like with RAC, when it's time to go, it's time to go. There's a line between continuity and banging your ahead against a wall.

How's that for balance Vers? lol

With our current offensive depth chart (at least at QB) and the difficult looking 2015 schedule on the horizon I've been saying for weeks that the ONLY way we'll be competitive next season is if we can run the football consistently and effectively on offense and then stop the run on defense. Not exactly advanced football knowledge, I know. But it's true.

We addressed defensive line, pass rush, offensive line and we added a kick/punt returner and a guy whose going to compete for carries and passes right away.

I have no problem with the plan.

We're minimizing the holes around the QB position on both sides, and I love it.

I do agree, we need someone to step up BIG at receiver and tight end.