DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued

Vers. You are preaching to the choir with me about Hoyer. I liked him under center for the Browns and really felt that the best move for the team to bring some kind of stability to the position was to sign him to a 3 to 4 year modest contract. I would have liked to see them sell him on a long term security as a home town back up QB. Tell him if Manziel does not work out he will be our starter until we find our future QB. If Manziel does pan out we have faith in him as back up if Manziel gets hurt.

I felt he struggled down the stretch when Gordon came back and he started forcing the ball to him when all season he was making good decisions and did not force the ball.

Derek Anderson was 10-6 also...

Hoyer could NOT throw a ball with any sort of accuracy beyond 8-9 yards. His feet bounced around like my kids on their trampoline. We also got to witness him tank our season with horrendous play in the second half of the season. He did show some flashes of some good things, but overall the first 3-4 games of the season *I* probably could have run our offense.

I do understand the only columns that REALLY matter are W-L, but I hated watching that guy play. I can't say I will be any happier this season though.

I, too, agree with that. But again, Hoyer is not here. I'm not preaching - just stating that for me, I have to choose what IS, as opposed to what WAS.

10-6 in the same season that is.

His W/L % was well under 50% before all was said and done.

We were comparing rosters from last year and this year. I did not initiate the conversation. I simply participated in it.

What is wrong w/that? Stop being a cop. Either join in the conversation or stay out. Sick of you telling me what I can and can't post. Why didn't you say anything to all the other posters who were doing the same thing?

All I know is that no way can people ignore 10 and 6 w/Hoyer and 1 and 15 w/out him when evaluating the QB situation between this year and last.

Well, they can ignore it, but their opinion suddenly lacks any substance, especially when two of the QBs who contributed to that record are still on the roster.

Relax. I haven't told you what you can or can't post. Insinuating that is - or should be - beneath you.

I'm not being a cop. I'm actually taking part in the conversation.

All I'm saying is Hoyer isn't here. Why discuss what he did? He's not here. (and for the record, yet again, I wanted him to remain here)

Just chill man - why is everything so personal with you?

The Browns - good bad or indifferent, have to play with who they have.

Have we upgraded? In some areas, it would appear so. In some areas, it may appear we haven't.

Yesterday is gone. Live today.

edited to say: Comparing rosters is just great - but it is what it is. Comparing someone that isn't here to people that are - somewhat futile, no?

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/05/browns_oc_john_defilippo_johnn.html

Browns OC John DeFilippo: 'Johnny Manziel is putting himself in position to be an NFL quarterback'

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
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on May 09, 2015 at 2:26 PM, updated May 09, 2015 at 2:47 PM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns offensive coordinator John DeFilippo's intro to Johnny Football has been encouraging.

"Johnny's been great,'' DeFilippo said after the second rookie camp practice Saturday. "He's been fantastic. What he wants to talk about, before he stepped foot back in this building is his business. All I know is Johnny the football player, and he's been awesome. He's been working hard, very hard with myself and (quarterbacks coach Kevin O'Connell), and doing what we want him to do on the field."

Hard enough to become a successful NFL quarterback?

"All I know is this: From the moment he stepped in this building from the last two weeks, he's been nothing but a consummate professional,'' DeFilippo said. "He's spent every hour that he's been allowed to spend in this building. We give them worksheets every Tuesday and every Friday, and they're done to the unbelievable detail that we need an NFL quarterback to do. From that standpoint, like I said I can't predict the future, but all I can do is tell you right now Johnny Manziel is putting himself in a position to be a quarterback in the NFL."

DeFilippo, who got the best out of Terrelle Pryor when they were in Oakland together in 2013, stressed that he's not about to take the "Football'' out of "Johnny.''

"I watched a lot of Johnny's tape his year coming out of college and I gave him a draft evaluation grade,'' he said. "They ran a lot of the same pass concepts as you run in the NFL. Johnny's game is just a little unorthodox. He likes to escape the pocket, he does a lot of impromptu stuff and the thing Johnny's doing right now is he's improving his game of being a NFL quarterback and he's making great strides in doing that.

"I'm the last guy - the last guy -- that's going to take Johnny Manziel's athleticism away from him. I will not do that. I refuse to do that. Okay? And I told Terrelle Pryor the same thing. 'That's part of your game.' Now, we need to refine the other part to make you the complete quarterback.'''

He declined to compare Manziel to Pryor or any of the other dual-threat quarterbacks, but "I can tell you is this: if Johnny Manziel's our quarterback, we'll have an offense to fit his skillset.''

After watching Manziel's tape from last year, DeFilippo found reasons to believe Manziel, who was discharged from 10 weeks of inpatient rehab on April 11, can develop into a quality pro.

"Absolutely,'' he said. "First of all, I think he has fairly good arm strength. I think he gets the ball out of his hand fast. I think Johnny has a lot of traits that good quarterbacks in this league have. It's just a matter of getting better at them."

DeFilippo said Manziel and other spread quarterbacks must first hone their time-clock in their heads.

"Those spread guys, the ball is out so quick a lot of times on those bubble screens and quick passes,'' he said. "He's got to have a time clock in his head on the throws down the field. The other thing that's going to be really different for him he's working on it hard is the protection part of it. They only had two or three protections at A&M, and we're going to ask him to do a lot more at the line of scrimmage in terms of a protection standpoint."

But DeFilippo has been pleased with how hard Manziel and other quarterbacks are working to learn the new scheme.

"I tell a lot of our players this, not just Johnny,'' he said. "I tell them I'm really proud of the way they've handled the new situation and the change. Change isn't easy. They've had a lot of coordinators here. So I tell a lot of our players including Johnny, how proud I am of how they've handled the change.''

DeFilippo couldn't say whether or not Manziel deserved to be buried for his two poor starts last year, during which he mustered three points and five first-downs. Browns general Ray Farmer has suggested that the offense wasn't equipped for the drastic schematic when Manziel took over.

"I wasn't in this building last year, so I don't know how he prepared, I don't know how he didn't prepare,'' said I don't know anything that happened here last season. I had plenty of other things on my plate, but I'm looking forward to seeing Johnny come out this year with a new frame of mind, new mindset, new outlook and see how he does with this offense.''

In the meantime, he's eager to work again with Josh McCown, whom Mike Pettine declared Friday is the favorite to start this season. DeFilippo and McCown were together in 2007 in Oakland and know each other well. In fact, DeFilippo is the main reason McCown ended up here instead of Buffalo.

"Things with Josh haven't changed,'' he said. "He's the exact same person, the exact same player. He seems like he hasn't aged a bit in terms of his arm strength or athleticism. Josh has been the total guy we thought he was going to be. He has taken command of this offense and he has taken command of the room. The guys respect him, and he's done some good things on tape so far and we're pleased with Josh's progress."

Like Pettine and Farmer before him, DeFilippo explained that McCown, who went 1-10 last year on a horrible Bucs team, won't be called on to carry the offense.

"I don't want to speak for Josh, but I don't think he's ever been at a place where we feel as confident taking some of the pressure off him during a game in terms of running the football,'' he said. "Like I said, I don't want to speak for Josh. You can ask him that, but that's the striking, glaring thing that's going to be there for Josh.''

And for Johnny too, whenever he's ready.

I have to agree with you to a great extent. I mean people do try to take a very small slice of a long career by McCown and use it as some example. I mean over his entire career, other than a short starting stint with the Bears, his career has been putrid. At his age, I find it would be more likely by far that his skill set would regress, not progress.

Now while I don't dismiss Hoyer's record, I also saw the skills he used in accumulating that record to be very limited. He's a QB who has to have everything around him to be perfect to enjoy any success. The OL and running game must be very productive in order to allow him to use play action. The Hoyer we saw late in the year is what reality to me dictates he actually is.

So to me I do believe we took a step backwards at the QB position. Although I don't believe that step backwards is as huge as many believe. I liked Hoyer and it was a great story, home town kid and all.

What I don't understand was why the FO took a step backwards. I understand a move for the sake of improvement. I can even understand a lateral move for cap space reasons. I didn't see many if any real ways this off season that were what I would consider to be a smart move in attaining a good QB.

But in this case I do believe we went backwards at the position and really don't understand the logic behind it.

Both Hoyer and McCown suck. If either of them are your starting QB you are screwed.

And you know as well as I do that sometimes these are coincidence as opposed to cause.

Also, you included a game in there as a victory for Hoyer where he left the game with an injury down what .... 10-0? (that we came back to win)

The bottom line is that we scored, on average, 19.3 points/game in 2013, and we declined in scoring in 2014 to 18.7 points/game last year. We regressed on offense as far as scoring is concerned.

We improved on defense, going from allowing 25.4 points/game in 2013 to only 21.1 last year. This was despite massive injuries at the end of last year.

Our improvement last year was on defense. Our offense was roughly the same as it was with Weeden and Campbell, under Chud, except that we actually had receivers and running backs last year.

Gordon?

Nope, but we did have guys who played like pros in Austin, Hawkins,and Gabriel. That was better than having Gordon and Little along with Bess. I look at how many times we had guys running wide, wide open last year, and it just amazed me that we could not hit them consistently. I think that hurt our run game to some extent.

Look, I don't want to bury Hoyer, because he did do a lot of good things last year. At one point, I thought that he might be able to be our franchise guy. He also won more games of any QB since DA, However, he failed a great deal as well. He was, in the end, OK, but capable of being improved upon.

I'd rather have 2013 Gordon than all three of Hawkins, Gabriel, and Austin.

but the 2014 and 2015 gordon is the real gordon.

To me, Austin, Hawkins, and Gabriel prepare. Gordon, so far, hasn't applied himself and it showed last year.

I get there isn't a star receiver on this team. Give me a corp of receivers like Hawkins and Gabriel. Gordon is a "me." Farmer needs to find Steve Smith Sr. look alike.

I addressed that in my earlier post. I don't see anyone ignoring it. You're the one that seems to be ignoring anything that doesn't fit your agenda. The record without Hoyer says more about his replacements and the state of the rest of the team than it does about him.

My problem with people complaining about McCown's short stint as a good QB is that Hoyer is in the same boat. He showed a total of what 11 games of "good" QB play? And the majority of those good games resulted with him only throwing a single TD.

We took a step back, which to me remains to be seen, because Hoyer thought he was a better QB than he is and wanted to be the unquestioned/challenged starter and be paid accordingly.

and thats why i am so mad about mccown. a step back.

"However, Hoyer struggled in the following four games, throwing only one touchdown while being intercepted eight times. As a result, the Browns lost 3 of their last 4 games to fall to 7-6 on the season, jeopardizing their playoff hopes. In a Week 14 home loss to the Colts, Hoyer was 14/31 for 140 yards, 0 touchdowns, and 2 interceptions. He was repeatedly booed by fans throughout the game, and he was heavily criticized for his performance following the loss. Through 13 games this season, Hoyer has 11 touchdowns to 12 interceptions. "

Link

Brady Quinn 2007 - 2009 / 10 TD to 8 INT

Hoyer

mcCown

Is that the only video you have you've reused it 10 times.

no but it describes him to a tee.

One play?

You must be one sad person I feel so sorry for you, that to make yourself feel better all you can do run is run people down.

Pure hating on McCown. Seems obvious that you want him to fail rather than see him succeed.

And I am 100% certain you would be able to pick any Browns QB since 1999 and find a clip at least as bad and most probably worse. it's just a cheap shot from a hater

I wanted Hoyer back - but he played simply woefully for the last 1/2 of last season .... I hoped it was due to fatigue after a gruelling offseason getting healthy, and I believe he's better than that. But I also believe that if Pettine wanted him back that he'd be a Brown ... and he isn't here so I trust Pettine way more than I trust any poster on this board.

Add to that the very real chance that JM will start from game one if his head is screwed on tight as it *appears* to be at this point. . . . zero point lashing out and hating on McCown.

Browns OC John DeFilippo high on Johnny Manziel

By Chris Wesseling
Around the NFL Writer
Published: May 9, 2015 at 04:37 p.m.
Updated: May 9, 2015 at 05:02 p.m.

The Browns are not abandoning the notion that Johnny Manziel still has a chance to emerge as the quarterback of the future in Cleveland.

New offensive coordinator John DeFilippo used the words "great," "fantastic" and "awesome" to describe Manziel's work at Browns headquarters over the past two weeks.

"All I know is this: From the moment he stepped in this building from the last two weeks, he's been nothing but a consummate professional," DeFilippo said Saturday, per The Plain Dealer. "He's spent every hour that he's been allowed to spend in this building.

"I can't predict the future, but all I can do is tell you right now Johnny Manziel is putting himself in a position to be a quarterback in the NFL."

While Manziel is going through a transformation to professionalism and endearing himself to teammates and coaches, DeFilippo notes that veteran Josh McCown has "taken command of this offense and he has taken command of the room."

McCown is a heavy favorite to retain the starting job throughout the summer and into the 2015 season.

If McCown fails to lead the Browns into playoff contention, Manziel will receive another late-season trial. In which case, he will have to show enough to call off the organization's annual search for a solution at quarterback.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...-johnny-manziel

I don't care if he prepared or not. Gordon in 2013 was one of the best receivers I have ever seen. Any time he got the ball it was a potential TD.

Thanks for the read Triple

Glad to see the enthusiasm.

That is true, and has to be taken into account. However, then last year he was really ordinary to bad. (and I did compare 2014 to 2015)

Braylon Edwards had one tremendous, unstoppable year back in 2007. He had 80 receptions, and went for almost 1300 yards, and had 16 TD receptions. He never broke 1000 yards again in his career.

Josh Gordon had an epic season in 2013. We had few other weapons than him, and the QBs, especially Weeden when he was in the game at QB, would just throw the ball up for him and let him go get it. He had 87 receptions for a staggering 1646 yards, and 9 TD.

Then, last year, he bombed when he came back from suspension. 5 games, 303 yards, 0 TD ..... he was nothing like the same player he was in 2013. In fact, he was our worst WR last year, when he finally got back on the field. Will he return to his 2013 form in the future? There is no absolute certainty that he will. If he plays like he did last year, with his head at home while he was on the field, then he may never make it back to the field on game days. If he does not stop the stupid violations of the drug policy, then he may never even make it back to the practice field. He will have thrown away what could have been a brilliant, Hall of Fame career.

That's why I specified 2013 Gordon.

Yeah, that Gordon was a Hall of Fame level player.

Unfortunately, we haven't seen that Josh Gordon since.

chud and norv had basically adopted the kid and really had him on the right path, when they got canned, it probably canned his career as well.

I guess DCs figured out how to play Gordon. It is why he needs to get prepared. Very few can rely on talent alone.

BS. the guy sucks. i am pissed they brought in a 36 year old backup to be our game 1 starter for the year. he brings zero to the browns.

mentor my butt. this guy plays dumb football. why would you want a mentor like that?

Pitt I have seen this statement made over and over again and it just is NOT accurate. I realize most of you guys when you make a statement about Hoyer your just aping each other but the part about Hoyer having to have everything perfect around him just isn't true. Unless your saying of course that in 2013 we had a perfect running game around him. The statement isn't accurate but I bet I hear it again and again until you and many others believe the lie.

I thought Norvs offense was PERFECT for Hoyer had we taken that and added an actual run game to it I think Hoyer would still be here in fact had Hoyer not gone down in 2013 Chud would most likely still be here as well.

You may want to revise your statement. Here is the deal too, our offense last season was built around the run game when that failed the offense failed. Under Norvs system which was a vertical passing offense that required Hoyer to make his read and get it out quickly Hoyer thrived. But go with your STORY it sounds better. pfffffffffffffttttttttttt

Did I? Let me go back and look. He we go....



I do want to add that even though you don't want to acknowledge it, the Browns were like a different team when Hoyer started. They played w/energy and passion. We had several long punt returns and picks in that game, including a pick 6.

Part of my point is that the players believed in Hoyer a lot more than any of the other guys.



that we won more games than we lost w/Hoyer and have won either 1 or 2 games [depending on how you judge the Buffalo game. The bottom line is ALWAYS WINNING OR LOSING.

Look, I knew that other than a few reasonable posters, the vast majority would either ignore that very revealing stat or try to excuse it away w/rhetoric.

The bottom line about that is that there is no way a rational and fair-minded person could look at such a HUGE DISCREPANCY in regards to the won/loss record and dismiss it completely.

BTTB might want to check your own facts before writing that sort of revisionist history. Hoyer Started 3 games in 2013. He had 5 TDs and 3 INTs. I know that's like amazing for a Browns QB, but really not that impressive in the grand scheme of things.

Norv Turner runs a Vertical offense based off the Air Coryell system. Vertical throws were what Hoyer has shown to be the worst at. I don't see your perfect fit.

I understand that we're so starved for wins as Browns fans that anyone who can bring them is seen as a conquering hero, but the "legend" of Brian Hoyer is much more impressive than the reality.

He had all 3 picks in his 1st start and never threw another one... You may want to check your facts.. And that hardly supports the theory that he can't play without everything being perfect only a real sick person can take what I said and make it different.

Pitt said that Hoyer had to have everything be perfect, running game, O Line, bla bla, and I said then explain (paraphrasing here) 2013 when we had no running game... Which you DID not do.

The offesnes we ran last season wasn't suited to Hoyer but he managed to make it work for the most part. Hoyer was and is at his best when he takes his 3,5,7 step drop and lets it fly. Oh and last year its funny as hell but when his two weapons returned he left the building but of course there is no connection with his drop off and their return, and hey Gordon and Cameron always run the correct routes, so any problems clearly fall on Hoyer...

pffffffffffttttttttttttttt

2+2= what??????

It amazes me it realy does.....