DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Satanists Seize On Hobby Lobby To Test The Limit Of Religious Freedom

Hope you are as well, Pit!

I've been working on the coast in California since January, and virtually every day has been beautiful. I've realized how much you take it for granted when you are in that environment all the time. I think that's why I like living in Ohio, you never take a beautiful day for granted!

Yes I believe that you were much closer in your description than I was in mine.

I believe that the happiness, giving spirit and love that's shown by living in a Christian manner will do more to help spread Christianity than by quoting scripture and trying to force your beliefs on others. Tolerance IMO is a big part of being a Christian even if sometimes we disagree.

I'm doing great Jules. Things couldn't be better! The Nashville area is a wonderful place to live.

So fellow Christian Posters, I ask of you a question...

Why did our God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone who lived there?

when are you gonna ask the question i asked you?

or are you gonna dodge the question like your republicans homeboys did the vietnam draft?

"Republican home boys" on Vietnam?

Swish.....slow down a bit. Hey, take a look at congress' vote on the Iraq war. Let me clue you in: Dem's voted for it as well. Even your lovely Hillary, and Kerry.

Might want to think twice before laying things at the "home boy republicans"?

was vietnam part of iraq?

are they even in the same region?

it's just a slight jab. me and 40 jab each other all the time.

I did some work in that area last year. Loved it!

yes, you should be legally punished for breaking an oath taken in public.

Yes, some will suffer more because of it but far more would benefit from it if their parents tried harder to honor their vows. Getting divorced should definitely not be so friggin easy to accomplish. You don't even need both people to agree to a divorce for it to occur, counseling is not required, in fact no effort is required beyond paying out a little money.

The fact that it is SOOO easy to get a divorce actually increases the chance many will end up in divorce. All marriages go through some hard times. Knowing that you can be lazy or cowardly and just walk away from it makes it easy for some to just say screw it.

Marriages can fail for many reasons the two main reasons are infidelity and selfishness. Of those two selfishness is the worst and leads to the latter. When two people make their partner's happiness a priority the marriage can always recover. It's when one or both of them only want to think about ME ME ME ME that things fall apart.

Of course its easier on you once you walk away from your problems. Sinning is always easy, and seductive, but it ultimately destroys everything.

Whether you believe in God or not an Oath made in public and recognized by the state should have dire consequences for breaking it or what's the point of having it at all?

They were all being sinful. It wasn't because of just one sin, Stephen.

The whole world needs to be destroyed if you want to use Sodom and Gomorrah logic, too. Oh, I highly doubt Sodom was the only town that had a population which participated in the act that took it's name after. Also, why haven't other places been destroyed by hellfire and brimstone? There's been much worse places than S&G. How come Germany wasn't destroyed during WWII?

But, let's conveniently ignore heel old testament God, and do mental cartwheels to reconcile the Old Testament and the New Testament.

why? there's no law saying you must get married. so why make a law punishing the act when there's no law making it mandatory in the first place?

you're not making any sense.

There is no point calling yourself a Christian if you are not going to stand up for what he teaches and instead just going around telling people its ok to sin and just do whatever you want.

You don't love your fellow man by letting him doom himself to hell. Instead you fight to save him. There really is no such thing as tolerance if you really care for them.

Too many weak willed Christians are too worried about being comfortable instead of saving their brothers from being destroyed by sin. It's laziness, not tolerance.

No one is forcing them to get married. They are choosing to make an oath in public that is recognized and sanctioned by the state. Breaking that oath that they voluntarily made should be punishable by law.

If you want some casual relationship then you don't need to get married.

Any other oath required by the government has legal consequences. So should the vows of marriage. A person's oath and word should have meaning. This has nothing to do with religion unless your saying only religious people are capable of keeping their oaths.

No worries about final words or what not; I'm enjoying the discussion. I have no design on changing your mind or causing doubt.

Another confusion I have is if God allowed people to be born unable to marry the opposite sex, is it sin for them to not marry? And if it's not a sin for them to not marry, why is it a sin for them to have sex? So you are being punished for being born `different` from God's image?? It feels to me like the modern church would rather punish and discriminate against those who don't follow "normal marriage." It's not just homosexuals either; single people who are in their 30s to 50s are rarely seen in an evangelical church unless they are relatively new. Do they exist? Sure. But so much of the sermon is spent on procreation that you are expected to marry for that purpose.

Let the punishment fit the crime. The couple are making an oath to each other, not to you and me. Enjoy the buffet tray and the city chicken at the reception



Every church I've been a part of has preached that casual relationships are a sin. If the relationship isn't for the purpose of marriage then it is adultery. Are you really supporting adultery?

i understand your point, but i simply can't agree.

this isn't one of those black and white issues. there's too many factors that lead to somebody filing for divorce.

I agree with some of the bible belt states that says you have to be separated for a year before an actual divorce goes through.i GET that.

but to make it a criminal offense is simply wrong, unless there was some type of fraud involved.

a woman can take an oath of marriage to what could be the perfect guy for her pre-marriage. they were together for a couple years, get married, and all of a sudden the guy is a woman beater. that happens ALL. THE. TIME.

she should not be penalized for getting a divorced.

Some guys get with women who are simply stunning. they sell guys a dream, the stars, and everything is perfect leading up to marriage. they get married, ole girl gets lazy, stops working, gets freaking fat, blah blah blah, the love is gone. he should NOT be penalized for wanting to divorce her.

there's soooo many variables that lead to divorce.

on top of that, there's so many politicians and judges and lawyers that take oaths, so many doctors and cops who takes oath, yet i don't hear you campaigning to hold them accountable for falsifying evidence in court and such just to keep their conviction numbers up.

but you want to criminalize something that affects nobody else's rights? that wasn't mandatory in the first place? this isn't the military or a contracting job. there's no form that was filed out to be married for a minimum amount of years.

i just think it's wrong.

but i will agree with you on one point, a point i made before:

y'all got too many part-timers. Too many people that only claim to be christian when it's the popular thing to do. when there's some type of movement. too many pretenders.

i'll give you that. at least you're consistent.

Thank you. I also enjoy a civilized, but challenging discussion of the Bible, and I thank you for providing really good argument for the "other side" of the debate.



The Bible tells us that it is better not to marry if we cannot live according to what Jesus taught us about marriage. If homosexuality is a sin (according to the Bible) then avoiding that sin should be something to strive for. We are all going to have certain sins that tempt us more than others. One man may have a drug problem, while another may feel compelled to habitually cheat on his wife. We all have things that we have to hand over to God so that He can help us overcome them. I am not saying that God is going to turn gay people straight, and frankly, I don't know why God made some people gay if he did not want them to have relationships with other gay people, However, if a man cannot obey God in anything, then he should turn that over to God, and stay away from that which causes him to sin.

In the end, I think that a gay person marrying a straight person would be a lie, and I do not think that God wants us lying about something so important.



Because that is what God says. Unfortunately, God says some things that do not appear to be "fair", but if we accept that God is God, then He gets to set the rules. All people have struggles and issues that cause different people problems. Some people may struggle with gambling. Others may have a drinking or drug problem. Others still may feel a need to cheat on their spouse because it builds their self image. Others lie almost constantly. We all face things that are sins according to God. In the end, we are ALL made according to God's image, until sin entered the world, and us. That sin separated us from God, and it is something we all have to deal with. The only way to deal with it, if we believe in the Bible, is through Jesus Christ. We may not all succeed, but I think that the desire to turn from that sin has to be present.



I have been single my whole life, and am 52 years old. I look at my life, and do actually wish that I would have done things differently. However, I also believe that God has some plan for me at this point in my life. I went to a number of different churches when I was looking for a church, and I did not have anyone look at me in any weird way when I told them that I was not married. I know that this is probably different for different denominations and different parts of the country though.



I have yet to hear a sermon based on procreation that I can think of. I cannot remember one even from when I was a kid. I have attended Reformed Presbyterian Churches, Methodist Churches, and 2 that I cannot remember what denomination they were when I went to a service there. I do think that the Catholic Church is really concerned with this topic, based on what I have heard from friends, but I have never sat through such a sermon, and certainly not on a regular basis.

I want to just add that we are all sinners, and that if being a sinner kept us from being forgiven then none of us would ever be forgiven. If we could not be forgiven, then we could never go to heaven. Our sins, those of each and every one of us, would stop us from having eternal life. One single sin would be enough to convict us. However, God wants us to be with Him for all eternity. He wants to love us, and to be with us forever. That is why he sent the perfect sacrifice in the form of Jesus Christ to this earth, to live a perfect life, and to die for us.

If I am reading the Bible correctly, then God wants us to confess our sins to Him, repent our sins, (essentially make a decision to turn from them) accept His guidance, and set aside our own desires in favor of His. I do think that this process, of repenting our sins, asking forgiveness, and asking Jesus to be our Lord is vital to being forgiven. I see no other way based on what the Bible teaches.

Gos wants us to turn from our sins, but I think that He knows that we will fail if/when left to our own devices. I think that the asking for forgiveness, and that repentance of our sins is so important. We may fail .... in fact, we will fail at times, but the desire to change, to turn from our sins, and to be more like God wants us to be, is, I believe, a huge part of salvation. If it was not, then the Bible would not mention it as often as it does. Repentance is basically deciding not to do something. I have to wonder how we are forgiven if we ask God for forgiveness, but them say to Him, "Thanks, now instead of allowing you to lead me, I am going to go do what I was doing before." I don't know if that works. I suspect that it does not. I suspect that this is the narrow gate that Jesus spoke of. Many will cry out Lord! Lord!, but He will tell them that He never knew them, because they did not make Him Lord of their lives. That is how it seems to me, anyway.

In the end, we all have to make our own decisions as to whether we will open our lives to Jesus, and allow Him to lead us, or whether we will try to control our own lives, making Jesus secondary (or lower) instead of making Him 1st in our lives, as a true Lord would be. Jesus does not force us to follow Him though. We each have to make that decision for ourselves, in all aspects of our lives.

There have been many times where I have not done a good job of communicating this, and for that I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my delivery of the message. However, I truly believe that this is what wants from each and every one of us. He does not want us to love sin more than we love Him, and he does not want sin to be our Lord. Rather, He wants that position in our lives. We have to decide to turn our lives over to Him though, and to follow Him, because he will never force us to do so.

Man, that is definitely true. There are many who claim to be Christians, who have never cracked their Bible at home. There are those who claim to be Christians, but if you look at their lives outside of church, and compared it to that of an atheist, you might suggest that the atheist is the Christian based on what you might see. There are many Christians who have essentially made up their own version of God, based on what they want to be able to get away with doing.

I know, because I was absolutely one who did that. For many years I professed that I was a Christian, (or, at least that I believed in God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible) but if anyone examined my life, they would not have said "That man is a Christian". My life was more defying God than following Him.

I thank God that he got through my thick skull before it was too late for me.

That is fortunate! The baptist churches I was a part of really drove home the whole "marriage is for procreation" business.

I can't even begin to guess how one who is single at adulthood without baptists parents would even date another baptist. Baptists didn't even like to use the word dating because they felt it had secular connotations. And they definitely did not approve of dating before college age. Typically the term used was "courting." The only expected outcome of a courtship was marriage. Even breaking up a courtship was considered in poor form as I will describe below.

If a baptist young adult (say age 18-25) wants to date another, first they must determine if they are a boy or a girl. If you a boy, then you are to ask the girls father for permission to begin courtship. If you a girl, your choice is to wait to be chosen. How fair! During the courtship process everything is supervised, even if the parties are legal adults. A couple who is "courting" is not to be alone at any time. The parents often dictate ground rules for what can be done during courtship as well, often instituting a 6 inch rule, meaning the two legal adults aren't to be closer than 6 inches at any time. That is only for married folk! In Baptist communities kissing (aka first base) outside of marriage/family is a sin because it leads to adultery.

Because the parents approved the courtship to occur, it is unlikely the children will break off the courtship. The reason behind this is you would not be honoring your parents wishes and going against the 5th commandment. Therefore the only time courtships end is due to parental involvement.

If this is starting to sound like arranged marriage you aren't alone in this thought. This is exactly how I view this process. And some may find it hard to believe that this occurs. Well it does, and not in a far off place either: in downtown Cleveland and other churches in Northeast Ohio that I attended over the years.

I don't believe that I would like that type of set up. I think that it might chase away as many young people as it helps stay in the church.

It's pretty black and white to me. When you get married it isn't just for when times are good and its convenient. It's for richer or poorer, sickness and good health, at least in most vows. It was till death do us part so you're right there are no minimum years because its for all of them.

If you are not prepared to honor your vows then don't make them. Period. Marriage is not for the weak of heart or the lazy. It's for those who are determined to fight tooth and nail for the person they marry and the family they create.

Love? Marriage has little to do with it. What? You honestly think people keep all those warm fuzzy feelings after 10 years of farts, burps, leaving the seat up, whining, crying, mood swings, a pile of disappoints, failures, and everything else that can go wrong? You're either naive or deluded.

Marriage survives based on Honor and Devotion. Wife got fat and lazy? Too bad, love her anyways and work to motivate her to be healthy again even if it takes a decade. Husband gets violent then get him help because he needs it. If that don't work put his butt in jail for breaking his vows and for breaking the law. Personally, if a man has to beat a woman then go ahead and execute him because he is a worthless human being. That fulfills that "Till death do us part"

There are only two reasons accepted for a divorce in the Bible. One is adultery which is punishable by death so that "Till death do us part" still works out The other one is when a Christian marries a person who is not saved. It's perfectly fine to divorce and escape from a bad person IF its the nonbeliever who asks for the divorce. The Christian is NEVER allowed to ask for the divorce.

1st Corinthians 7:12-15 (ESV)
To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

I don't shoot off my mouth just to disregard people's feelings. The Bible is very clear on what it says about marriage. This is also one of the reasons the Bible doesn't want Christians marrying people who are not saved. It allows it but it doesn't want it because it's very dangerous for your heart and a strong chance of failure.

You asked if I am supporting adultery? Of course not! I say if you can't be that committed to your mate then keep your friggin pants on. That's right. I am point blank saying that if you are not ready to spend the rest of your life with a woman then keep your pants on. I mean seriously if you are not ready to live and die for the family you might create from your actions then you have no business having sex.

Whatever the lost in this world want to do is fine so long as they take care of their mistakes themselves. The thing is they are not. They screw anything that moves and society is being destroyed from it. Kids raising kids, kids growing up in families that are destroyed and hurting so bad, men and women whoring it around not caring about the pain they are causing when they destroy families, or create dysfunctional ones.

The wages of sin is death. Not because God will kill us but because the weight of our societies actions will weigh our nation down til it drowns.

At some point you have to hold people responsible for the harm they are doing to our country because you can't have a democracy survive with our a strong moral system built in that you can trust the people to naturally behave.

Why because most people will only do what's in their own best interests. What the people WANT is not always good for the nation or even for themselves.

Being a true Christian is not about giving people what they want its about creating a world that is most likely to nurture and preserve a person's soul because eternity is a LOT longer than this brief chance we have at life on this planet.

If you call yourself a Christian but all you do is go along with what man wants to make living a life of sin easier and enabling a sinful lifestyle then you're just as loss as they are. Better start praying brother because the Bible says you will know a man by his works not by his words.

those judges, cops, and other officials that break their oath should be punished too. I will never have a problem against liars and thieves being held accountable.

Those are some weird churches you went to. Almost like you got baptists confused with Amish or Mennonites.

I have preached and visited many, many Baptist churches and I have never known one to be that far out there. I am not saying there are not but I can easily say most are not.

Then again, I personally have no problems with arranged marriages or conservative dating. Parent often have more sense than their kids who are running around with whacked out hormones. Working hard for that first kiss will only make you appreciate the privilege your receiving by getting it.

I am a bit of a hopeless romantic myself but good sense makes for a better marriage than a case of the warm fuzzies.

The weirdest one was in Elyria but the one in downtown Cleveland was just as bad in most cases. The Elyria church didn't like boys wearing leather jackets because it was worldly and I don't think the Cleveland church felt that way. We did play the mennonites when I was on the junior high bball team though



My concern with arranged marriage is I feel it goes against the teaching of free will in the Bible. An arranged marriage may be free will in the letter of the law. But many kids in these scenarios are taught to respect their parents wishes always; so it is considered a sin to not go through with the marriage. The child is put in a very tough spot and the "easy" way out is to just go through with the marriage .

Actually he didn't. Lott and his family were spared. He found the only righteous family in those cities and spared their life. He took them out of the city before it was destroyed.

There's only one problem with that line of thinking. Whether gay marriage is legal or not, it doesn't change the behavior of people. The act you find so sinful and offensive will carry on either way.

So while you may believe that stomping your feet and screaming out loud actually has some impact on the sin itself as you see it, it simply doesn't.

and provided them with salt for life.

Well I didn't think that would be necessary to post. We've been told so much about what happens when we don't listen to God on this board, I simply thought that was a given. lol

Cute.
I don't understand the Cherry picking part. What other sins are you trying to make into law that I should point out?

Awesome photoshop

People have been doing arranged marriages for thousands of years and quite frankly their success rate is much higher. I mean nothing is perfect. I think most young people are not capable of understanding what a good relationship is much less who is a good person to marry. Most parents(not all) want someone worthy of their children and someone who will make them happy. They are far more likely to pick someone with good qualities as a person vs someone that just incites lust.

If you have bad parents it's not such a great thing to follow. Besides honor your mother and father really only means to take care of them when they get older and to treat them with respect. Not to be their property or slaves.

If you have good parents and you yourself have half a brain then you will want to marry someone your parents feel safe enough to give their blessings to marry. Having parents at odds with who your spouse is will doom most marriages from the start anyways. Even if they don't approve right away it gives your potential spouse a chance to prove how much they care for you by working hard to win that approval. A test of love if you will. You will always treasure something more the harder it is to achieve it.

I am definitely interested in the answer to this as well, since I (and others) have mentioned abortion, divorce, adultery, premarital sex, covetousness, idolatry, greed, and so on. That's the better part of the 10 Commandments right there.

Yes, you do.
We both KNOW you do.

And... we BOTH know that you're trying to 'play a chess game' with words.

Nice gambit, but...

Epic fail- for those who truly know 'The Game.'

PLEEEEZE.... don't come out all "Tex Ritter gunz-a-blazin" when you're making a heartfelt point (in your own words), then try to play all 'coy' when another poster parries your thrust.

Posters have surgically sliced and diced Biblical passages to support their own personally-held belief structures since the EE threads here at Dawgtalkers were born... and they did it when this community was convened at the old official site. This game is 'Old Game.' I've seen it a thousand times before.

Big deal. Nothing new here.

It's what ALL we 'chunks of 98.6' do in conversations like these:

1. You stake out your claim.
2. You stick to your guns.
3. You NEVER admit that "your opponent" made a good point about you- or your POV.
4. You set "your opponent" up to expose a (potential) weakness in his initial assertion... then, execute the 'kill shot.'


Seen it/surfed it/tossed the T-shirt to my nephews. All 6 of them.


They don't fall for your tricks on the sites they frequent, either... because they learned at the feet of The Master.

[Yeah... I'm the "Blerd." (Read: 'Black Nerd') ...the guy who actually took H.S. Debate as a class for credit... otherwise known as "your worst message board nightmare"...]





Another 'trap question' (just like the ones you tried to use on me in the thread I linked earlier)...designed to frame the conversation in terms that are favorable to your POV/stratagem.

They're only 'sins' because YOU (and Americans who align with your belief structure) frame them as such. There's only one (major) flaw with this line of thought: you don't speak for all Americans. In fact, you only speak for a selective cross-section of Americans. Is your neighbor any less of an American than you, because (s)he believes differently than you? Why should all of America defer to YOUR idea of what (S)he should be?

______________

After cutting through all the BS, trap questions, and 'gotcha' set-ups, the 'initiative at issue' is still about the restriction of rights for some Americans that are being enjoyed ( and even taken for granted) by others. That dichotomy simply cannot exist in a country the espouses as one of its basic tenets that "all men are created equal."

You can fight as hard as you want. You can 'play games with words,' and practice obfuscation 'til your heart's content, but it won't do a thing to stop the momentum that fuels a new 'civil rights' issue that's brewing in this country of ours.

American citizens are being treated differently than their neighbors, by law (or at least, by custom)... and that's just WRONG.

Ours is a SECULAR nation based upon the premise that ALL citizens are deserving of the same rights and privileges as all others. The U.S.A. has a clearly-stated 'separation of Church and State' in its constitution to avoid this very thing... the repression of the minority at the hands of the majority.

(BTW: THIS is my 'tie-in' to the "Black Civil Rights" issue you tried so hard to emotionally bait me into engaging on Page One of this thread.)

Hint: Clemmy plays HIS chess game 6 moves ahead... while 40 is (apparently) still setting up his board for a rousing game of checkers...

_____________________

While Christianity (in all its myriad incarnations) MAY be the overwhelming thought/belief philosophy of some of its citizens, IT DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL Americans. Nor should it. Not in America- the land of the free.

That's why we have a constitution, congress, executive branch, and Supreme Court.... to keep folks with your mindset from dictating to the rest of us how Life In America should be.

'Regressives' have been trying since 1776... and they've been losing since 1776....
...because those 'pesky Founding Fathers' expertly set America up to adapt to the changing of times.

YOUR religious beliefs are irrelevant, as are mine.

The LAW OF THE LAND states it as such.

Such as it has always been; such is how it shall always be.... at least until 'America' becomes something Our Founding Fathers never intended it to be.



Not ever your 'nemesis,' but just another Fellow American with a different P.O.V,


Clemmy.

Slow clap

Well you give me too much credit for being a manipulator of conversation, I'm not that smart.

You even make a list of how the game is played which gives us insight into how you, yourself, operate.

What we have going on here is the FACT that I say something on any subject and then must wait until you and your kind get done being angry and calling me names. Then we can discuss. Happens in every thread. PDR was the master.

Now, as you know, I feel homosexuality is a sin so I can never bring myself to defend or accept changing the laws to allow Gay marriage. I have made that clear.

So that brings us to the end of the subject except for the fact that I ask one simple question that every Christian should know the answer too, but I am still waiting for the name calling phase of your game to end.

Why did our God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

...............while he still saved the righteous.

Let me try this again...

They were all being sinful. It wasn't because of just one sin, Stephen.

The whole world needs to be destroyed if you want to use Sodom and Gomorrah logic, too. Oh, I highly doubt Sodom was the only town that had a population which participated in the act that took it's name after. Also, why haven't other places been destroyed by hellfire and brimstone? There's been much worse places than S&G. How come Germany wasn't destroyed during WWII?

But, let's conveniently ignore heel old testament God, and do mental cartwheels to reconcile the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Dawg, I've never called you any names. Not ever. And I've truly never been angry at you. We just see things from different POV's and discuss them. At least that's how I've always seen it.

.02