DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

I think one thing that is going unmentioned in the Hoyer vs. McCown "debate" is how McCown's skillset resembles Manziel's a lot more than Hoyer's did. Last year many people complained about the different play calling between Manziel and Hoyer. This year I think we really will have the same plays for everyone. All the QBs on our roster have above-average athleticism. McCown actually spent some time at receiver for the Lions. If we are trying to get to the best place for Manziel to succeed, I think this was the way to go.

Interesting. It's not an angle I would have thought of. And since I don't really know anything about this, I'll just sit back and watch.

What can McCown athletically that Hoyer can't?

We signed McCown because we wanted more veteran leadership than Hoyer could/was willing to provide (that is a horrible reason to sign someone).

How does McCown's skill-set resemble Manziel's in anyway? I'm also one that doesn't believe in the mentoring thing for QBs. They saw how awful Manziel looked. They brought McCown in as a one year fill in and have pretty much accepted the fact they have to get a franchise QB in next year's draft.

LMAO.......

They brought in McCown and got rid of Hoyer for one reason. The players trusted and believed in Hoyer and not Manziel. They knew McCown was a stiff and he wouldn't complain if he wasn't the starter.

From an athleticism stand point. McCown ran a 4.59 40 at the combine, and has been listed on an NFL depth chart as a receiver. He's a lot more mobile than Hoyer.

Do you really believe that? Serious question.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the players will trust and believe in anyone back there as long as they are winning. I think the majority of the team believed in Hoyer just as long as he was winning. I haven't seen any player upset with letting Hoyer go, and I've only heard good things from the same guys who have said nice things about all of our former QBs.

That was like 20 years ago.

Yeah, I was once an 8lb. baby.

I believe Johnny will be given every opportunity to start on opening day if it's close between him and McKown Jonny will start ... JMHO

I can't find a link but in a Flip interview within the past week he talks about McCown still having his athleticism. I'll edit in the link if I find it.

Link

Who cares about Hoyer? He isn't on the team.

Yes, I do. Completely.

You don't?

Only the ignorant ignore history and don't use reflection as a tool for growth. I am not ignorant, thus I do care about whether letting Hoyer walk and replacing him w/McCown or Manziel is justifiable.

You can make fun of me for that, but I really don't care. In fact, I think you might want to take a closer look at your own logic---or lack thereof.

Ridiculous notion.......

They've accepted the fact that they might have to get a franchise qb in next year's draft. But, for all they know, some Manziel, some undrafted guy, or someone we trade for could light it up.


They might even see a FA they like. Here's some examples of guys who sort of came out of nowhere. Tom Brady. Mark Bulger. Kurt Warner. Tony Romo. All guys who switched teams (or were drafted late) and had success in the NFL.

These people do exist. The odds aren't high that we'll land someone like these, but they do exist.



Why would they write off the guys on the roster and all other available players in the NFL.... That would be moronic.

not to bust your chops-- but i don't think any stone has been left unturned in this debate...

IMO, McCown was brought in to be a good teammate to Manziel, he will accept not starting. And that is something that was pretty obvious Hoyer was not interested in. Skill set, i think McCown has a bit of the advantage. And he has more starts, so experience is in his corner. As the tape cought up to Hoyer, he went in a tail spin. McCown should be a stop gap, Hoyer was never going to accept that role.

"There may be little difference between a McCown-helmed Browns offense and a Hoyer-led one on the field. But what the Browns want from their veteran quarterback in meeting rooms and the locker room is something they didn't believe they could get from Hoyer.

Whether that proves to be the right strategy or not is unknown. But clearly, the Browns were thinking less about their immediate on-field product when it came to their quarterback depth chart and more about what could set them up for greater success in the longer term.

Link

After the number of QBs we've went through in Cleveland, you can't really believe this right? That's like saying, I could win the lottery this year. Let's be real here.

Josh McCown and Johnny Manziel are not similar athletes.
For one to believe this is most concerning.

After watching that Josh McCown mix video I can see the basis for your observation. McCown displays decent mobility. If called to do so he will use his feet so, in that respect his is more similar to Manziel.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut eventually. Yes, it could definitely happen.

Why not us?

This is the correct answer.

No semi-intelligent person actually believes what you quoted.

It really doesn't matter who starts at QB, Vegas has us wining 6 games. We go after our FRANCHISE QB next year.

6 wins would have us picking in the 8-10 range. We would need to sell the farm to move up to get a Franchise QB in the draft ... if there is one.

If they were going to sell the farm they would have kept Hoyer.

If we can run the football, and our defense is as stout as it should be, then honestly I think we'll see the same production from McCown that we saw from Brian Hoyer. I'm also curious to see how strong McCowns deep arm is. If his deep arm is better than Hoyers was then we might see some better production. I got so sick of Hoyer under throwing guys on deep routes...

I liked Hoyer, and think he had some nice moments last year, but to me the guy was just average. I think he has the smarts to be an elite quarterback, just not the physical tools. His mechanics broke down at the end of the year, and his arm strength is average at best. His lack-luster play to end the year is what lead to his benching, not Johnny Manziel.

Please mac keep your statements on the up and up, these guys make most of what they say up, please don't you do it too. There is nothing saying Joe is about to retire nor ask for a trade.

Other then that I think you make some great points.

Josh McCown vs Game Film: Week 9 vs Packers

http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/5/28/5741560/josh-mccown-vs-game-film-week-9-vs-packers

Josh McCown vs Game Film: Week 9 vs Packers, part 2

http://www.bucsnation.com/2014/5/29/5754628/josh-mccown-vs-game-film-week-9-vs-packers-part-2

I'd be very disappointed in Thomas if he wasn't fed up with this crap. I don't want anyone on this team that accepts losing. I think we have had plenty of guys on this team in the past that didn't really care either way as long as they were getting paid.

Mac, you might want to re-think this. Hoyer went down in a ball of flames. Can't really call that "winning". The FO just got rid of a guy going downhill to another down trodden QB, who they hope can bring a winning attitude to our other QB's. If Hoyer went out on top then it's a different story, but he was starting to stink up the joint. Time to re-group.

People are just in love with Hoyer's story. There is no one who actually thinks he was a good QB last year or will be one in the future. Dude was an interception machine.

All fundamentals broke down too, especially the "happy feet" and throwing off the back foot when there was virtually no pressure or reason to.

Not trying to rip him, but won't be too shocking if he rides the bench this season in Houston. He just can't operate when he doesn't have a successful run game.

It's easy to get wrapped up in the Win/Loss record of a quarterback when we've had virtually nothing but losers the last 15 years. With all due respect to Brian Hoyer though, he's just an average quarterback. Last season when we were able to run the football effectively, he was able to do just enough for us to squeak out some nice wins. When Alex Mack went down, and the running game suffered, so did our offense. Hoyer kind of PROVED he wasn't able to carry the team on his shoulders when our running game wasn't working. His mechanics suffered as the year went on, his accuracy suffered, ect.

Hoyer had a streak where he lead 1 touchdown in 29 total drives.

He threw 8 INT's in a 4-game span.

He was COMPLETELY ineffective against Houston, Buffalo and Indianapolis (while throwing 3 INT's and nearly blowing the game against a VERY BAD Atlanta defense, but kudos for him for leading a GW drive at the end).

Point is, he has an average arm, and started to get really skiddish with his play at the end of the season. If he were a few years younger and hadn't already reached his ceiling, I honestly think our front office would have made it a priority to keep him and build around him, but he'll be 30 when the season starts (maybe 31?), has a below average NFL arm, and was kind of a diva at times near the end of the season when it came to the media.

Don't get wrapped in wins and losses with QB's. Tampa Bay had a BAD offensive line and BAD defense last year, not to mention no real offensive coordinator. McCown had no real chance to succeed there. If our offensive line can stay healthy, run the football effectively, and protect McCown I honestly think we see the SAME production (possibly more if he has a better deep arm) that we saw from Hoyer last year.

Just my opinion.

Hoyer looked like gold because we've been given nothing but turds since 2007....

+1

Exactly.

He's not bad, but he's a backup with an average arm and average mechanics. That's it.

I am the last person who is going to get wrapped up in QB wins and losses.

McCown has stunk for nearly the entire time he's been in the NFL (his first year was 2002). That is not going to magically change now that he is on our team. Players, and especially QBs, don't magically get good when they are 36 years old.

I think the plan heading into the season was to strengthen all positions so that McCown simply has to manage games. On paper we're going to be built to run the football, and have a dominant defense that can protect leads. If all plays out this way, and we have a defense and good special teams unit that can put the offense in good situations I think McCown will be capable doing JUST ENOUGH to get us some wins, kind of like Hoyer did. We're also all forgetting that Johnny Manziel COULD win the starting job if he shows enough in camp, and having him adds another element to the offense that McCown doesn't bring, mobility at quarterback.

I'm not trying to argue that McCown is going to win us games and get us to the playoffs, all I'm saying is that if everything is clicking around him he should be capable of just managing games and doing JUST ENOUGH to get us some wins.