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... if they brought in some one better, or at the very least some one with upside. but they didnt. It would appear that way if you go on past results. I will even give you that the Bears stats were a small sample size. However, McCown has not played one meaningful snap with the Browns so you are being premature. I also believe you will be proved wrong...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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... if they brought in some one better, or at the very least some one with upside. but they didnt. It would appear that way if you go on past results. I will even give you that the Bears stats were a small sample size. However, McCown has not played one meaningful snap with the Browns so you are being premature. I also believe you will be proved wrong... wanna put money on it? i watched the bears games. i watched the tampa bay games. i believe in my eye.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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If Josh McCown starts all 16 games and goes 8-8 what is the point?
Management is after wins. I get that. It helps you keep your job. A team should go into every game trying to win. However, in this case it must be clear to everyone in the room that McCown is the best option.
If it is anywhere near close that Manziel can start; then he should.
I would rather go 5-11 with Manziel than 8-8 with McCown.
This year the Browns need to find out if Manziel can play at the NFL level. If they do not find that out then shame on them. They made the investment. The team made a decision to not draft a quarterback this year. They know what McCown is. I don't really see the point in having him start 16 games. Unless he is winning and is clearly in control of the position.
In any other scenario I want Manziel in there. Getting the experience to get better or proving he does not belong.
Next year on draft day I want to know who the quarterback will be. Either Manziel or the guy we draft.
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There was no explanation for the bad footwork...the poor accuracy - WRs were open - the pocket adjusted with the loss of Mack but it was no sieve! Didn't need to sieve. No Mack is all the explanation I need. hoyer made it look like there was no sieve. because he got the ball out. after mack went down he took alot of hits AFTER the ball was gone. im not going to sit here and say hoyer was some god or anything. and i really wouldnt care at all if they brought in some one better, or at the very least some one with upside. but they didnt. I agree. I also will point out... Hoyer wasn't going to resign with the Brown's if JF was still aboard, no way, never was going to happen. FA brought in a career backup and that's all we could hope for in FA. Plus the draft didn't produce a viable starter without selling the farm. Maybe just maybe the old man can be as good as the FO hopes he'll be. We'll see soon enough if our rebuilding in the trenches holds true. I'm not sure how anyone can come to a conclusion that there was no real explanation for the breakdown of Hoyer's mechanics, footwork, and throwing accuracy. I just can't ignore the fact that the lost of Mack had much more to do with the breakdown of our offense in general than many think. Most likley the very reason we shored up the Oline and built in the trenches in the draft.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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J/C
How many people think Hoyer was capable of being our long term answer at QB, and a "franchise" player at the position?
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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How many people think Hoyer was capable of being our long term answer at QB, and a "franchise" player at the position? No one who is taken seriously.
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J/C
How many people think Hoyer was capable of being our long term answer at QB, and a "franchise" player at the position? not sure but doubtful. just doesnt have the arm. would have to make a specific offence that is all timing and if anything happend to that it would not work. that play action every one is talking about. it was just to buy the extra second to go deep. shanny really wanted to strech the field. not really hoyers strong point. hoyer had 2 bad games in the first 10. one when grecko was under center and one when jj watt was in the backfeild more than our RBs. after that it was all gordon running bad routs. threw every thing off. you guys think hoyer was bad? wait until you see mccown play. week armed weeden is what he is. weeden is twice the QB mccown is.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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How many people think Hoyer was capable of being our long term answer at QB, and a "franchise" player at the position? No one who is taken seriously. Yeah... next question. LOL There's no way Brian is the long-term answer at any NFL organization, and that's said with love because he was always blue collar and worked hard. Outside the home-town story, Brian is a career backup which I see no reason why that route as a backup won't continue at his new gig.
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J/C
Exactly, I'm of the no persuasion on Hoyer as the guy to take us to the mountain top, too. If he's not that guy and he only wants to be the starter, what's the fuss in letting him go?
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Exactly, I'm of the no persuasion on Hoyer as the guy to take us to the mountain top, too. If he's not that guy and he only wants to be the starter, what's the fuss in letting him go? The fuss is that people got emotionally attached to him because of his story. If Brian Hoyer was from Phoenix and grew up a Cardinal fan, no one would care.
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... if they brought in some one better, or at the very least some one with upside. but they didnt. It would appear that way if you go on past results. I will even give you that the Bears stats were a small sample size. However, McCown has not played one meaningful snap with the Browns so you are being premature. I also believe you will be proved wrong... wanna put money on it? i watched the bears games. i watched the tampa bay games. i believe in my eye. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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... if they brought in some one better, or at the very least some one with upside. but they didnt. It would appear that way if you go on past results. I will even give you that the Bears stats were a small sample size. However, McCown has not played one meaningful snap with the Browns so you are being premature. I also believe you will be proved wrong... wanna put money on it? i watched the bears games. i watched the tampa bay games. i believe in my eye. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king... simple yes or no?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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j/c-----------kinda. This thread reminds me of the Gordon thread, the past Weeden and TRich threads and so many others when it becomes apparent how many of you are more interested in slamming your predetermined opinion home than relying on logic, reason, and evidence. Here are some quotes to prove my point: So what you are telling me is that the Browns were 10-6 because of Hoyer and nothing else? No, not at all. However, I do not get how you guys can COMPLETELY IGNORE SUCH A HUGE DISPARITY IN THE RECORDS OF OUR STARTING QBS AND STILL PUT MOST OF THE BLAME ON HOYER. The only difference was the defenders stopped dropping the wounded ducks he put in their chest and started catching him. Seriously? Every pass he threw was a wounded duck. He NEVER threaded the needle? Those that loved Hoyer hate the move and probably hate Farmer for all eternity. Those that thought Hoyer sucked is ok with this specific move by Farmer. Some how certain folks have come to believe that there is this big farmer fan club that defends everything he does. I dont see it. Beyond hilarious. I also think that his attitude that he should be the starter, no matter what he did on the field, had a great deal to do with his departure. Prove that statement!
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I also think that his attitude that he should be the starter, no matter what he did on the field, had a great deal to do with his departure. Prove that statement! Prove your statement first! They brought in McCown and got rid of Hoyer for one reason. The players trusted and believed in Hoyer and not Manziel. They knew McCown was a stiff and he wouldn't complain if he wasn't the starter. Let's have a proving unprovable statement contest! Ready! Set. . . Go!
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I assume you are talking about making a bet. The answer is NO, for the simple reason that I don't bet on something over which I have no control/influence on the outcome...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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As always, you resort to crap when you have no argument.
Are you really telling me that the disparity in our starting QBs record has no relevance at all?
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Can you prove yours ... the Hoyer was not re-signed because the players liked him, or whatever it was that you said? (that was absolutely ridiculous, IMHO) I do admit though, that I do not remember whether yours was prefaced as an opinion, or a statement of fact, but I seem to recall that it was presented as a statement of fact
I am not attacking you, rather just saying that if you go around demanding evidence from others, you should at least be willing to do the same for your own statements.
As far as the opinion you replied to, the poster clearly started with "I think that ....", which clearly precedes an opinion. I don't know how you "prove" an opinion.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I assume you are talking about making a bet. The answer is NO, for the simple reason that I don't bet on something over which I have no control/influence on the outcome... but but.... your so sure... you called me a troll and a liar.... surly you cannot be that much of a wuss can you? or is it that you dont believe what you say?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Why are you guys so intent at changing the argument. We were comparing rosters. You were the one who started it, right?
No problem w/that. It's a good discussion. However, when I brought facts to the table, we start getting all these side-bars that derail the original point of my argument as to WHY we are NOT better off this year at qb than last year.
Do you guys really believe I am that stupid? Seriously? Do you?
Not one freaking person on this board who has been backing Farmer w/zeal has actually said............."hmmmm, that is an interesting stat."
Not one!
Instead, many have simply ignored it. And the ones who have spoken to it have twisted the facts and tried to make the argument about something else.
Just show me that you wanna be reasonable. Just once.
Hell, I said to a guy who debated me that it was a "fair argument."
Why can't you guys ever give an inch? Why can't you use logic and reason and actually examine things? Why does it ALWAYS have to be about predetermined opinions?
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I assume you are talking about making a bet. The answer is NO, for the simple reason that I don't bet on something over which I have no control/influence on the outcome... but but.... your so sure ... you called me a troll and a liar.... surly you cannot be that much of a wuss can you? or is it that you dont believe what you say? I most certainly did no such thing! You may want to reread that post...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Everybody realizes that Hoyer isn't on the team anymore, right?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I assume you are talking about making a bet. The answer is NO, for the simple reason that I don't bet on something over which I have no control/influence on the outcome... but but.... your so sure ... you called me a troll and a liar.... surly you cannot be that much of a wuss can you? or is it that you dont believe what you say? I most certainly did no such thing! You may want to reread that post... Oh sorry, that was me. I called him a troll (it's what he is). I don't think I called him a liar though. That must've been someone else.
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Everybody realizes that Hoyer isn't on the team anymore, right? He's in our hearts though Swish. He's in our hearts.
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I also think that his attitude that he should be the starter, no matter what he did on the field, had a great deal to do with his departure. Prove that statement!
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I also think that his attitude that he should be the starter, no matter what he did on the field, had a great deal to do with his departure. Prove that statement! Circumstantial!
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And none of you are still addressing the point of contention that started this "debate."
How in the world can you COMPLETELY ignore those stats?
Oh, I better clarify. I am not yelling. The caps were meant as a point of emphasis. Excuse me if that is not the right way to emphasize words.
LMAO..........the fact that a guy calls another poster on something as stupid as that tells you where he is at.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 05/11/15 06:59 PM.
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All I am saying is to live by the same standards you are demanding of everyone else.
Isn't that fair? Don't demand of others what you are unwilling to do yourself.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Alright YTown. I apologize for making a mistake for asking for proof. I was wrong. I am sorry. I should not have done so. I wish I could take it back. I was wrong.
Now, can we address the record thing? It doesn't make you wonder..........even a little bit?
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No apology required; none asked for... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I don't understand the issue with having a competitor in a QB who wanted to be "The Man" when we clearly had a guy (Manziel) who thought that starting roles were given and not earned. One thought that I have regarding the clear meltdown in Hoyer is that it was clear that upper management had no desire to, regardless of performance, to have Hoyer around with a 1st round investment at QB waiting in the winds (textgate). Is there a correlation between textgate, Shannahan, and the refusal to resign Hoyer? IDK, but I do know that if a guy is fairly alright and cool in the clutch; you don't let him go. I'm still not sure we've seen Hoyer's ceiling with a FO around him that supports him.
Regardless, it's all moot at this point, but it is interesting to discuss. I really think there was more to the meltdown and downfall of Hoyer than the fans really know. My hope is that Manziel can at least beat out a 1-10 McCown because there really is nothing else to look forward to in 2015 under center. Hey, at least we've solidified the trenches and running game!
Last edited by HewDawg; 05/11/15 07:07 PM.
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And none of you are still addressing the point of contention that started this "debate."
How in the world can you COMPLETELY ignore those stats? Wins and losses? How about the mountain of stats that say Hoyer was among the worst QBs in the league last year (along with McCown)? We are not better off with McCown. But we would suck with Hoyer too. Oh, I better clarify. I am not yelling. The caps were meant as a point of emphasis. Excuse me if that is not the right way to emphasize words.[/quote] Thanks for the clarification. You just seem like a yeller. My bad. LMAO..........the fact that a guy calls another poster on something as stupid as that tells you where he is at. I am at the point in the off-season where I am fine with laughing at you for my own entertainment. The funniest part is that you actually think people take you seriously.
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I am at the point in the off-season where I am fine with laughing at you for my own entertainment. The funniest part is that you actually think people take you seriously. The funniest part is that you keep trying to convince people to not take me seriously. Oh wait.............it's actually more pathetic than funny.
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I am at the point in the off-season where I am fine with laughing at you for my own entertainment. The funniest part is that you actually think people take you seriously. The funniest part is that you keep trying to convince people to not take me seriously. Oh wait.............it's actually more pathetic than funny. You do all the convincing on your own.
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Can't we all just agree that clearly the best option is that Johnny Manziel proves himself to be a quality NFL starter and we don't have to argue about which QB sucks less between Hoyer and McCown?
you had a good run Hank.
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I am at the point in the off-season where I am fine with laughing at you for my own entertainment. The funniest part is that you actually think people take you seriously. The funniest part is that you keep trying to convince people to not take me seriously. Oh wait.............it's actually more pathetic than funny. Still haven't addressed the record. You suck as a poster. Keep picking away, but I am done w/your foolishness and immaturity. You do all the convincing on your own.
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Can't we all just agree that clearly the best option is that Johnny Manziel proves himself to be a quality NFL starter and we don't have to argue about which QB sucks less between Hoyer and McCown? I agree w/that.
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I would defer on this to some of the 12-steppers, but it seems like Johnny really has the good kind of pressure on him to not drink. I mean, if he has one beer somewhere it'll show up on TMZ! And if that happens, everyone will say he is back on the sauce, even if he thinks he has it under control. So he CANNOT party and enjoy himself. Might as well buckle down!
If he does, he has the brain, the arm and the "it" factor. It might work .....
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Good point. No way is he going to get away w/drinking w/all the people salivating to take a pic of him on their phones.
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I don't understand the issue with having a competitor in a QB who wanted to be "The Man" when we clearly had a guy (Manziel) who thought that starting roles were given and not earned. One thought that I have regarding the clear meltdown in Hoyer is that it was clear that upper management had no desire to, regardless of performance, to have Hoyer around with a 1st round investment at QB waiting in the winds (textgate). Is there a correlation between textgate, Shannahan, and the refusal to resign Hoyer? IDK, but I do know that if a guy is fairly alright and cool in the clutch; you don't let him go. I'm still not sure we've seen Hoyer's ceiling with a FO around him that supports him.
Regardless, it's all moot at this point, but it is interesting to discuss. I really think there was more to the meltdown and downfall of Hoyer than the fans really know. My hope is that Manziel can at least beat out a 1-10 McCown because there really is nothing else to look forward to in 2015 under center. Hey, at least we've solidified the trenches and running game! One of the better posts I have seen on the topic and I concur...
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued
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