DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued

That poor camel's back has been broken more times than pblack has taken his dog to the vet to be put down...

It is a very interesting situation. McCown 2 years ago, looked perfect in his starts. Last year, when under the slightest pressure, he looked scared to death out there. now this will be the best OL he has ever played behind and probably the best run game as well but the truth is, QBs have a wall just like RBs, its not the 30 year wall but it is the panic wall and McCown hit that wall last year.

Now Johnny had his mechanics tweaked last year and looked like like a robot throwing the ball. He struggled to absorb the offense and tried to live the celebrity life instead of the dedicated pro lifestyle. The Browns brought in the one person that has been able to get Johnny to listen more than any other and thats his new QB coach who had him looking flawless in his pro days and workouts. Then you have johnny spending the offseason getting his mind right.

Neither of these guys are gonna instill a lot of confidence based on their previous years performance but both are in a much better place this year. Doesnt guarantee success but I like the situation.

I think Johnny will start the mini camps and Training camps as the 4th QB. They want Johnny to take it but they arent gonna put any public pressure on him to do so. Start him at the bottom and let him surpass Shaw, then Thad then hopefully McCown. He should he has more God given talent than any QB on our roster but he still has to make that adjustment to the NFL game.

Nice post..,,,

sure is. with any QB not named hoyer. pfft.

Since Hoyer isn't on our roster you would be correct!

he wasnt on the roster the last 2 years? pfft.

+1, we are close to winning more games, but need some luck (stay healthy) and growth by last years number 1 selections especially...we got part of the division monkey off our backs last year....I care about outside divisional games, but damn, at least one and one against our "brothers" would be sweet....hope JF keeps his nose to the grind stone and decides he wants to be great in NFL...maybe he is the answer to our team game....GO Browns!!!!

My hat is off to that straw! MurderLeg and camel buster. We got it going on!

Priceless...

I'm not sure whether I should cry or laugh at that...

What? We do know what the records were for the past two years.

Hoyer starting: 10 and 6.

Hoyer not starting: 1 and 15.

What are you talking about?

I really have no idea how to respond to this post other than to say that you need help at math.

Sad? Did you cry? Would you like a tissue to dry those runny eyes and nose?

I wasn't comparing Hoyer and McCown's record, oh emotional one. And perhaps if you really took the time to read what transpired rather than to make some stupid all-encompasing judgement on those you don't agree with, you would have recognized that even through your tears.

The comparison was this:

Hoyer's record w/the Browns the last two years vs the rest of the QBs who quarterbacked the Browns the last two years.

That is apples to apples. Now, dry your eyes or cry some more. I don't care.

Our guys are better than Matt Forte?

and our recievers are better than Brandon Marshall, and Alshon Jeffery.

At this stage in Forte's career, I'll give that an emphatic "Maybe"

As far as the string of previous posts, they were saying that as good as Hoyer's Win/Loss record looks he never led us to a winning season. He never took us to the playoffs either. They kind of have a point.

Honestly, though, I think both arguments are rather silly. They are just too simplified.

I would take Crow and West over Forte. As for receivers, he has had some great receivers and it is why receiver wasnt mentioned as advantages he has here. You may have though u were funny, trying to insinuate that I was stupid enough to rank our receivers higher than Tampa and Chicago's but it wasnt but I do like our receivers a great deal.

Now if you want to talk football please feel free to do so. I just have no desire to waste my time on this petty stuff.

I'd definitely take our O-line over theirs, and I think that's most important in a build through the trenches type team.

$0.02

I don't know about Crowell and West, but maybe Crowell and Johnson.

Forte is more than just a running back. Dude, had over 800 receiving yards last year.

If what we did last year determines how we'll do in the future, then we're a 7-9 team forever.

Man, we replaced a player. He had some good games and some bad games. He did win more games than most of our QB since 1999. Did he do it all on his own, or was it because of him + the system the coaches put in place?

I don't think that Hoyer was the only factor in our improvement last year. He definitely stabilized the position for us last year, and he had some good, and some bad. To say that he was the only reason we won 7 games last year, as your argument seems to indicate, is an insult to the rest of the team.

Further, one of "his wins" was a game where he got hurt while we were down 10-0 to the Bills. He played well in that game, but in the end, he did nothing to win that game for us.

I agree with this, but I think for Vers and me too and given the nature of the vilification of Hoyer and the tone that comes from what you said here I feel certain that if the game had been lost you would gleefully hang the lose on Hoyer.

For a good portion of last season and during our run our defense was pretty bad it was kind of maddening because at the end of the season they played their best ball. Hoyer carried the team though the early portions of the year, oddly enough thats when we won most of our games.

But when I see posts nobody tempers their take to include these truths. They simply hang the lose on Hoyer and rinse and repeat. The point being if you win as a team you lose the same way, its not the team won and Hoyer lost as some would have us believe.

Hoyer was the undisputed leader of the team on the field and that includes the defense BTW. The point here is this that leadership was probably Hoyers greatest asset and it is the reason we won more with Hoyer then with the other QB's over that span, so I think its entirely fair to credit Hoyer for ALL his starts but if you feel better its 9-6 and 2-15 which is like unbelievably different results from one QB to all the others yet nobody seems to want to touch it because they KNOW what they have been saying and this really lays that all to rest.

Yeah I spoke in absolutes and yeah its my opinion for the pin heads I have to now put disclaimers in my posts which won't last long but it seems the simpler minded members of the board have difficulty figuring out what is opinion and what is aping which is what they now want me to do so I can be just like them. pffffffffffftttttttttttttt.

In fact I think I will add a disclaimer to the bottom of my posts so I don't have to repeat myself..........

How would you have judged the Bills game if we had lost it 20-17? To whom would you have given the "credit"?

It is never "apples to apples" from year to year though. You know that. We changed coaches, changed players, improved the defense, and rebuilt the WR and RB units from 2013 to 2014. We changed coaches from 2012 to 2013 as well.



Is that really necessary? Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are crying. (and by the same token, those who disparage you in similar fashion really don't need to do so either)

Let the flat earthers have their way. There is no sense in arguing with someone who has no argument.

Yet the results were the same or worse actually we lost games without Hoyer. You still haven't gotten it thru your head that Hoyer was the driving force behind winning like no QB sense DA of course. In 16 or if you prefer 15 starts Hoyer is 10-6 and or 9-6 and that is a profound difference which you and others have a difficult time getting your arms around.

I know why you and others have a hard time with it, but the truth actually says what you and others have been saying about Hoyer is false and thats where your struggling. You should feel OK about yourself though because your certainly not alone. But let me help you here.

It is unquestionable based on the available data that without Hoyer we have little if any chance of winning. There I said it for you.

You know, had Hoyer done something in those last 5 games as he did in the early wins it would be easier to have the faith in him. But since he struggled so badly and never got any better with it it makes one wonder if his good performances were simply gone for good.

That happens. Did it happen to him? I don't know. But once he struggled he never recovered his earlier form. That leaves doubt about him going forward.
I'll respond if you do because I think it's a common courtesy to do so. But beyond that I feel as though I'm done with this subject.

We may as well lament on Belichick cutting Bernie or revisit the Couch/Holcomb wars or the long, fun-filled summers of our youth.

It's over. Ain't none of it coming back.

A year ago fans were sticking forks in Brady, and he went on to win the SB.

I know everyone likes to say thats it for Hoyer his train came and left, and hey maybe it did. I think he just wore down personally and will be back better then ever this year. But many fans just didn't like him because they viewed him as an obstacle to Johnny. Sort of made it easy to be unfair.

I also think that the return of Gordan was a huge negative.

You always focus on the Colt game and yup Hoyer played poorly but when we had a chance to ice the game Cameron cut the wrong way and Hoyer got picked on the goal line, but hey will just go ahead and lay that on Hoyer too. The point being we win and lose as a team Hoyer gets all the credit for the loses and none of the credit for the wins but when he didn't play good or bad it was as close to a guaranteed loss as you might ever find. So while he had his fault to be sure he still gave us our best chance, and would if he were only still here.

For me it makes it easy to dislike the decision. I liked Hoyer still do think he got a raw deal from some of the fans and from management as well, and I think he made us better, no one can argue that. I find it strange as hell that over a 5 game stretch after showing so much promise in his 1st real opportunity to start he is done finished.

I think the Hoyer decision is on par with the Richardson decision only in the opposite direction. And the fan outcry is just the opposite too. I was on the other side of that deal too, and I had to wait for everyone to come around then too.

I saw the guy do things that really good QB's do and that defenses can't stop for whatever reason Hoyers mechanics went to hell. I think I know why but I have no desire to hear the your just making excuses cry. Unfortunately will have to wait a few more months until will be able to see the results of our choices I can wait although it pains me to do so.

Pittbulls 16-0 under Coach Tab.....

Good then you can shut up about Hoyer until then.

Great comparison DA only had ONE good season, because of the the players around him too.

I liked hoyer also, I wanted them to retain him. But for whatever reason, that wasn't meant to be. No sense in worrying about it. He's gone.. I wish him well.

Our running game was extremely strong last year (at times anyway) and the offense was aided greatly by a defense that generated 21 turnovers and was often excellent against the pass. I certainly think Brian Hoyer is a smart, and capable quarterback, but he was aided greatly by a strong team. It may also be worth noting that five of his wins were against the Saints, Titans, Bucs, Raiders and Falcons. As the year progressed and he had to face tougher defenses (Jaguars, Texans, Bills, Colts and even the Panthers) he was completely ineffective.

Even in our wins, his numbers were always just borderline, and his completion percentage was among the lowest in the league the entire season.

I give Hoyer credit, because he's a smart quarterback and does a lot of things right, but his mechanics and accuracy regressed last year, and he just doesn't really have an arm that can carry a team when everything isn't clicking. He kind of proved it to us that he can't carry the entire load. Then when reporters asked him about his knock off in play and he was kind of a diva about it.

I appreciate what Hoyer did for this team, and he certainly had some nice moments, but I just see him as an average quarterback that benefited from great coaching and a strong team.

I guess we'll see when the season starts.

On the topic of Manziel. I think he needs to convincingly beat out McCown in training camp and preseason and I sincerely hope the kid does. Having to draft ANOTHER quarterback next year in 2016 is going to put us back another couple of seasons yet again.

The only problem with analogy is that Hoyers 1st season spanned 2 seasons. The proof of whether Hoyer was who you think he was and who I think he was will be determined sometime in the future.

I couldn't help but notice though that when Hoyer played we at least had a chance on the other hand when he didn't play it was as close to a guarantee of a lose as you may ever find. And that's with the same talent that multiple other QB's played with.

Ah but Hoyer sucks right? Great post well thought out..................

VD, no tears, lots of hate coming from some,think your initials traveled to your brain....Manziel might be the ticket in future, who knows, for all those supporting Hoyer, the paid leadership of Browns looked at everything and let him walk...live with it.....GO Browns!!!!

It's PitBulls

That's right it had taken Hoyer TWO seasons and he still had less WINS than DA in ONE season...good catch.

Hoyer was awful down the stretch. He cleaned up his own mess in Atlanta but he was terrible in buffalo and at home against Indy and that horrible defense.

Everyone either points to Mack's injury or Gordon's return as the reason why he struggled.

Both answers are wrong and if you think the Mack excuse is good enough than you're conceding the fact that Hoyer isn't good.

As far as the return of Gordon, Hoyer's downward spiral began before JG even came back. It started right after the Bengal win when he layed an egg at home against Houston. Outside of the final sequence in Atlanta where he was lucky to even get a chance to win, he was terrible.

And for all the talk of Johnny and his attitude, which is warranted, Hoyer came off as a baby when he was struggling. Bringing up his overall record as if that means anything when he's in the midst of a meltdown.

I'm glad he's gone. Sorry, I'm not sorry.

I understand your premise entirely. However, I believe that it is overly simplified to make one player the only determining factor in the team's wins, and yet not a factor in the losses.

Last year, the only 2 QB we could compare Hoyer to were Manziel, who appears to have had all kinds of issues and problems last year, and Shaw, who is almost as far away from being a legitimate starting NFL QB as I am. (OK, that's more than a slight exaggeration, but so is your premise)

The Browns offense, from the "glory years" of guys like Brandon Weeden and Jason Campbell.

In 2012, with Weeden starting, the Browns scored 302 points.

In 2013, with Hoyer, Weeden, and Campbell starting games, the Browns scored 308 points.

Last year, the Browns scored 299 points.

Now we do have dome defensive and special teams scored mixed into that stat .... but still, there was not some amazing improvement in scoring from bums to Hoyer.

Our improvement, last year, was on defense. We allowed 406 points under Chud and Horton, and improved to allowing only 337 points last year.

Last year our defense grabbed 21 INT, and forced 14 fumbles and recovered 7 of them.

In 2013, our defense grabbed only 14 INT, and forced only 8 fumbles, recovering 7.

So, we added 7 turnovers to the plus side on defense from 2013 to 2014. Those are chances the opponent lost, and and often times where the defense set up the offense in good field position. However, despite this, our offense did not improve in scoring from 2013.

Hoyer was a piece, and for a while he looked like he could be a solid piece of a successful offense. I got caught up in the hype myself. Unfortunately he then collapsed under the weight of expectations. While Hoyer may have played better, in some ways, than other QBs we have had .... that did not make him "good". Hoyer had upgraded receivers and upgraded RBs, yet we could not improve our scoring, and in fact, we regressed in scoring.

Our improved defense was a big reason we won some games, and yes, Hoyer was a reason we won others.

"Hoyer struggled in the following four games, throwing only one touchdown while being intercepted eight times. As a result, the Browns lost 3 of their last 4 games to fall to 7-6 on the season, jeopardizing their playoff hopes. In a Week 14 home loss to the Colts, Hoyer was 14/31 for 140 yards, 0 touchdowns, and 2 interceptions. He was repeatedly booed by fans throughout the game, and he was heavily criticized for his performance following the loss." " Link

Had a chance for the playoffs too but he blew that too!