DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Justice system at work!!

I honestly don't think that Switzerland and Norway sit around thinking about how we've got their back... I think they sit around thinking, hey, if we don't screw with these other countries, they won't screw with us... which is a policy we have not opted to implement for about 100 years.

I would also be more inclined to agree with you about our programs not keeping pace with others if I thought these programs were suffering from a lack of funding, which I don't think they are. We spend as about as much as any other country per child on education and more than almost any other country on social programs... Our prison spending is largely a function of the fact that we have 3x more people in prison that the next closest country and about 5x more than the average...

I think the problem is that we are spending money, lots and lots of money... we aren't INVESTING money in people's future, the money we are spending is not geared toward making any long term appreciable changes in people lives... we are spending a ton of money just so people can get from today to tomorrow. Since 1980, the number of people in US prisons (per 100,000 citizens) has gone up 240%... How is that acceptable? As a society, are we 240% worse than we were 35 years ago? 240% more lawless? We are paying to feed them, we are paying to catch them when they break the law, we are paying to put them on trial, we are paying to put them in prison, we are paying for all kinds of things except... we won't pay to help them get out of the circumstances they are in, in the first place...

I will give you that from one end of our government to the other, and this is big for the military, we waste an awful lot of money. We are the model of inefficiency when it comes to getting the most from our dollar of government spending... but until we switch from a model of back-end maintenance where we just keep people afloat for years and years to a model of front-end improvement, where we actually use the money to help people change the course of their lives, we will continue to spiral down...

Did you read the article I posted about the Norway prison system?

I found it interesting, then began asking myself, "would that work here?"




I'm not sure there would be many prisoners left if they had access to sharp objects at will.

Now, the question then becomes.. Are our prisons like this because of the way they are, or because of the people in them? Does Norway have the gang problems we do, drug problems, broken families? Do Norwegians have a lack of respect for the law and enforcers that many do here?

Is the societal difference between the 2 countries the difference?

I just can't imagine it is as simple as make prisons more like detention, and less like prison, will work here. At least not without slow methodical reform.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it starts with changes long before these people end up in prison.

One thing we have to do, assuming the answer to those questions is NO.. is to see how those things developed here and start to undo them...

And you are right, we cannot have a prison of that style here, not yet. It will take major cultural changes before that is possible. But from what I see, we are moving farther and farther away from being able to do it instead of closer to it.

i read it.

i would hope others read it.

reform is gonna be a painful process here in America. We don't need to be completely like Norway, but we can start experimenting with smaller prisons and see what happens.

The BIG problem nobody wants to talk about is this:

Even after you do your punishment, you're STILL punished in the job market. see people forget that a prisoner's punishment doesn't just end after prison. it keeps going.

Example: my homeboy caught a charge for selling weed when he was 16. he did a year in Juvi.

16 now.....couldn't get into college because of that. not a violent crime. but he couldn't get into college, and couldn't find a job for a LONG time.

he's still selling drugs to this day.

a reason Norway, Germany, other countries system works is because it actual rehabilitates people. which is why Norway's system is what? 15 percent recidivism rate? holy crap.

so how do we fix that here in America? people make mistakes, but man...they still get punished for that mistake even after prison. that isn't right.

Also, as far as culture.

Economics plays a huge part in how a particular society acts.

just throwing an example out there:

I'm from Turkey. we don't have a terrorist problem like that. our people are eating, very influenced by the West, and i don't mean Europe, I mean here in the US. we got a lot of modern stuff mixed in with the old school, and in general people are happy. they have jobs.

then you go to the country below us(Iraq)....enough said.

When you got a bunch of people who grew up poor, when every day is a fight(the ghettos, red neck areas), then they get into the prison system and it's exactly the way they came from, then you aren't going to have people changing for the most part.

hell, we got people who do crimes just to get BACK into prison, because it's a better living situation than what they came from. That says a lot.

What I would like to know is how many of the folks in prison are there just because they got caught committing their crime, not because they made a 1 time illegal mistake. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but there are people who basically live their life illegally everyday, and it's not if they will get caught but when.

And then when those folks do their time, do they even try to better themselves, or do they come out, call their old friends, and then continue right where they left off?

I want to talk about it... I want to know what you think can be done about it...

Look, most of the folks getting out of prison are qualified for low wage jobs anyway.. there are an abundance of people capable of doing those jobs... so if I've got 10 people applying for a job and two of them are former inmates, why should I hire them? What's my incentive other than just goodwill? I've got 8 equally qualified people who I have to worry about less than those two, who I have to fear could just stop showing up one day because they got popped again...

So I'm very serious when I ask, what kind of program or incentive could we develop to make it more rewarding to hire these folks over other similarly qualified people?

i get what you mean.

and the answer is: dunno.

i believe in the good of people. So i can only speculate, with some experiences from the friends i have, that most guys come out trying to do good.

the system made it so they finished their sentence, but now thats it's on their record, they can't find any work. they try and try, til the only way to pay the bills is to do what landed them in prison in the first place.

I get it from the employers perspective, as i would probably do just like you said.

I talked about this in another thread: our infrastructure(AMTRAK, anybody?) is crumbling.

if the government decided to invest in our infrastructure, they could do what they always do:award contracts to private companies.

then, just like they do with Vets, give incentive tax deductions or something similar for a percentage of ex-cons they hire.

That way, cons find a good pay job, honest work, the company wins, the con wins, the government wins.

It's way more complicated than that. but i would start with something of the sort.

I agree that some kind of financial incentive or even a mandate is going to have to be in place and it's going to have to start with government jobs..

(For the record, the Amtrak train was going twice as fast as it was supposed to be going, it wasn't crumbling infrastructure, it was driver negligence).. but I get your point.

So you want a new "New Deal" of sorts that promotes government infrastructure projects with incentives to hire ex-cons (and presumably other low skill people) to do the work and provide the company with incentives.. I could see that as a decent start since we have to do the work any way. So how do you sell that idea? What do you tell Joe and his wife, when Joe has never been to prison and gets turned down for a job so an ex-con can have it? Just throwing out there the objections you are going to face...

I know you weren't addressing me DC, but IF a prisoner has paid for his crime, why should the question of being a "former felon" even a question allowed on an application?

I mean for all intents and purposes, we are told that the punishment for the crime is your sentence in jail or prison. If in fact you have completed that "punishment for your crime", why is it permitted to perpetuate beyond that?

A reasonable question, but don't you think an employer has a right to know?

i dunno man.

it sucks. that would be a question for the experts.

anything we do is going to screw somebody over. thats how every policy we've done works. somebody is gonna get screwed, somehow someway.

I guess that brings up a question of which one would believe is more important...... A former felons right to a fresh start, or an employers right to know.

It's either that, or bring some government program or incentives into play. I believe if a prisoners punishment is truly paid for by his sentence, then that part of his life is behind him if we actually believe they deserve a fresh start and a fresh slate in life.

While I've never had to face such situation, I have a close family member who has. He was lucky to some extent. He did actually gain employment as a machinist for a company. He didn't live a life of crime, but it was more of an isolated incident and it was not a violent crime.

However, the company he found employment with is a small company who does hire former felons. The reason why is simple. By hiring former felons, they can find quality workers and have their pay scale and benefits much lower than many of their competitors.

So while he has found employment, his past is hampering his pay, benefits and lifestyle, long after he paid his price to society.

I know I'm late to the party and have not read all the posts but....

1. Down through all the years, hasn't story after story cropped up in the papers or TV about Joe Blow going on a killing spree or committing some really ugly crime, only to find out that the person(s) were ex-cons but their background was expunged because of age or something else?
I remember an uproar by the public and I think that's the main reason why they must list this on an application. There has been to many ex-cons that get out only to enter the work force just to wreak havoc once again. Most of these purps. also had a mental illness that was not disclosed. Just like sex offenders, they must register where ever they go because people want to know who lives next door to them. The People have made these changes because they are tired of getting run-over everytime you turn around because some have tried to be nice and give everybody a 2nd chance, just doesn't work with everybody.

2. Well that's my thinking anyway

At the very least, I believe it should be a policy for non violent offenders. I mean I can't seriously see how a kid selling some weed in college should negatively impact his chances at getting a good job once he's paid his penalty and moved on with his life.

Come on man - railroad infrastructure had NOTHING to do with the train derailment. 106 mph in an area designated 50 mph had everything to do with it.


Didn't we recently (in the last 6-8 years) spend $800 billion on infrastructure? Shovel ready projects that only needed funding? How'd that work out for us?


The rest is a good idea.

fair enough.

but that leads me to another point:

Why is it that we only have railways designed for slow speeds?

once again thats an infrastructure problem. Europe and Asia are whooping our asses right now in railways.

more people would take the railways if we had faster, safer railways.

as well, the money isn't the problem. it's how it was spent, with almost nobody overseeing the funding.

you're confusing me. you're coming off as if just because it failed because somebody dropped the ball means we shouldn't do it again.

so you're ok with our crumbing bridges and highways? you're ok with another potential AMTRAK disaster? you're ok with your children working and driving in areas where it isn't up to code?

cause i'm not.

YOU design high speed rail for this country. Then tell me how much it would cost, and how many people would use it. Then tell me how much tax money it would take to keep the thing running.

Could be. Does the size of a country have anything to do with it? I don't know. Do you? What, exactly, would "high speed rail" do for us, in THIS country? How would it benefit society? Is it that I could live in Toledo, but work in Chicago and commute every day - in, like an hour each way?

If so - great. Convince someone to build a high speed rail from Toledo to Chicago. Problem is, people from Indy would want it. People in Ft. Wayne would want it. Columbus, cleveland, cincy - etc. All of a sudden, that "high speed rail" becomes slow speed.

Or do you want h.s.r. from, say, nyc to Atlanta? Bam - 150 mph all the way. Who would use it? Would it support itself? No.

Where do we build this high speed rail? Connecting which place to which place?



Possibly. I don't think so - but possibly.


That's gov't. son. That's gov't. Listen and learn: That is gov't. There are TOO many overseeing the spending - managers that manage other managers that report to even more managers that require more studies, and when nothing gets done, we add a new layer of supervisors to manage the managers that oversee the previous supervisors.

Mean while - the shovel sits in the shed. And we get "we need more money".

Maybe instead of throwing more money at the same ball, we should demand results with the previous money we spent. And start axing managers and over seers and supervisors, and red tape, and all the crap that sucks up the money.
Did I ever, EVER say that? Thanks for being honest and admitting that I did NOT say that.

And quit with the amtrack thing. The train was going 106 mph on a stretch of track designed for 50 mph.

Let's say you're cruising on I-90 from the west, heading into Cleveland. At "the curve", rated 45 mph I believe - you're running 95 mph and you can't make the curve. Is that the fault of infrastructure? Or the fault of your speed?

I don't NEED to design a railway. other people have done just fine. i seen it, and rode it in other countries.

are you admitting that we lack innovation as a country?

i think better railway system in our country benefits everybody. of course other cities would want it. thats the ENTIRE POINT of investing in our infrastructure. for the people.

and i think hiring ex cons a good wage to get it done would be nice.

thats just how i feel.

So, you saw it and rode it in.....OTHER countries. How big were those countries in relation to the U.S.?

But honestly, tell me, how would high speed rail improve this country? Where would it run - where did these "other" people have the tracks running? How much would it cost?

Even our "slow speed" rail - amtrak - is not self sustaining. We aren't Europe.

Just because something works somewhere else doesn't mean it will work here.

You going to take h.s.r. to your job selling cars? No. Do you take the bus to your job? I doubt it. Why not? Convenience. And the U.S. is all about convenience. Try changing that - and good luck.

are you serious? our country is HUGE. that makes having better railways even MORE sense.

wow. lol. come on this is getting easy.

and yes i absolutely would take a train to work.

you know why? because i'm pretty much guaranteed to get to work on time, instead of sitting in traffic on i-90 every damn day.

bet that didn't go how you planned it in your head, did it?

You're right. It IS getting easy.

And yes, it went exactly like I figured it would.

Hey, you have access to public transit right now, right? Living in a city? But you don't take it?

Let me ask you this: Is a high speed rail system going to pick you up at point a, and stop 10 miles later at point b? No. If so, it's not a h.s.r.

H.S.R. is city to city - state to state. How many people do that on a daily basis? HSR is NOT a commuter train.

How often do you need to go from Cleveland to Chicago? Or Chicago to St. Louis? Seldom - if EVER. HSR just isn't going to cut it - because by definition, it's supposed to be "high speed". It's not going to be able to make the stops here and there along the way.

Thanks though. You have made it easy.

you realize there's more than just railways right?

there's better public busing, where the RTA is sort of inconsistent.

and you don't need high speed railways everwhere. street trains are just as effective when talking locality.

europe and asia have them. so does parts of africa.

so yes, if it saved me time, i absolutely would. and it WOULD save a bunch of people time.

you know why it would be needed? why it would be successful?? because people carpool all the time.


your flaw is your trying to focus on form of public transportation when there are a few awesome options.

people travel back in forth to different cities all the time. it's called local flights.

there's a REASON they pimp this credit cards with flyer mileage, it's a huge market. imagine if we had more street trains and high speed rails.

sorry, but on this, my mind isn't changing. i believe this would be HUGE for our country.

Yup. YOU were the one hammering h.s.r. Not me. Remember that.

Pretty much every city in this country has public bussing, and RTA. Inconsistent? According to.....?

Already have "street trains" I can take Amtrak from Bryan Ohio to Chicago - or, I can drive to south bend Indiana and take a "local" train to chicago. People do that every day (the local train) for work. Live in South Bend, Indiana and take a train in to Chicago for work. See - we already have this stuff. Just because tiny (land wise) European countries have h.s.r. doesn't mean they'd work here.

How many people in Germany, or whereever, get on a hsr that takes them to their job and back? Few. They always have to get some other form of transportation as well, right?

So, what does h.s.r. do for us? People don't commute from n.y. to chicago, or atlanta to dallas.

Parts of Africa use camels. What's your point?

Ah - the KEY. IF it saved YOU time. IF it saved ME time. Here's the thing: h.s.r. sounds fantastic. Until you look at the logistics of it in a country our size. It won't save time - it won't be self sufficient, and the vast majority of the time, trains running from city to city would be near empty.

We aren't Europe. Or Asia. How's that h.s.r. in Africa work?

I've noticed a recurring theme with you. Transportation. Maternity leave. Judicial systems - pretty much everything, in YOUR opinion, is better in Europe.

Wait - we need high speed rail because people car pool? Seriously? You do understand what h.s.r. is, right? Dang, you ARE making this easy.

Your flaw is you're hyping high speed rail in a country this size. You've yet to explain the routes for this h.s.r. - or the cost. But, the cost would just be dumped on the federal gov't., right? I mean, what's another trillion dollars?

BUT - that high speed rail is going to connect.......what? DC to Indy, to Chicago, to detroit, then cleveland, then new york? Can't be stopping much, or else it's not h.s.r. So, the guy that lived in Columbus, for example. He wants to get to Chicago. He has to drive to Indy first? Then wait?

Look - the u.s. isn't some small country. It's big.

We have planes also. And I can't believe many people commute 200-400 miles each day for work. Not many even travel 100 miles.

It works in Europe. That's great.

Yup. A HUGE expense, with no return on investment. Just like amtrak is supported by the gov't. because it can't turn a profit.

What I propose is quality of life upgrades, which helps with employee productivity.

Regardless.

My bad for actually caring about people Tim. I won't make that mistake again on the boards.

I don't even know how Amtrak stays in business.

Miami to NYC 1 way is $144 value fair, 26hr 40 mn train ride.

I can fly one way for for $160 in 2hr 30 min

You lost me on the quality of life upgrade thing. H.S.R. would improve quality of life?

Regardless, I/we got sidetracked. I only commented in this thread because of your statement that our infrastructure is falling apart and you used the amtrak accident as an example. Infrastructure had nothing to do with the accident - taking a 50 mph curve at 106 mph had everything to do with it.

I'll be done now.

so yea.


our justice system is jacked up. whats your thoughts.

It's not perfect. But, we aren't Norway or Sweden either.

Too many crimes here. Too many people locked up - but how many currently locked up do we want to set free? I don't have the answer.

Honestly, our prison system is set up to penalize, not rehab. On the other hand, too many criminals get out and go right back to what got them in prison in the first place.


I don't have answers - but I won't say our system is "jacked up". Perfect? No.

Overall fairly well. There are examples of some boondoggles in there but that's to be expected with a large government program.. Problem is, it can't be a once every 10 year thing, if we want to continue to build and maintain our infrastructure, it has to be an on-going thing.

Recently there was a proposal to build a high speed rail from Charlotte to DC... would have been great, could have made the trip in just a few hours... but Raleigh wanted a stop and Greensboro wanted a stop and Richmond wanted a stop and other smaller cities wanted a stop... by the time all of these stops were incorporated, the rail that was being designed would never even get close to achieving it's maximum speed and the trip went from a few hours, to something like 12 hours.... and you can make the drive in 9...

We can suck the efficiency right out of everything in this country.

yea. its crazy.

that's why they're main hubs.

major cities can get a stop. there's not a policy or system in the world that has been implemented that makes EVERYBODY happy. ever.

and thats the problem. people think just because it doesn't make everybody happy, it shouldn't happen.

A lot of people think, if you are going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on it, what's in it for me? It should pick me up and drop me off at my front door for that kind of money.

The focus of all high speed rail has been the east coast corridor because that is where the population is... wrong thinking in my opinion.. the east coast corridor is so congested and such a cluster, I'm not saying give up on it... but I don't think you can change it.

If you want high speed rail, they should be looking west of the Mississippi.. connect those cities out there while it would still be relatively cheap and then let the areas develop around the railroad, as they are prone to do...

If you do a search, there is/was a proposal for a hsr from Columbus ohio to chicago. Cost was "guessed" at $1.3 billion. It had stops in Marysville, Ohio, Kenton, Lima, Warsaw Indiana, Plymouth In. Ft. Wayne Indiana, Valpo I believe, and Gary.

Estimated time: 4 hours, OR, on the "express", 3:45. You can drive from Columbus to Chicago in just under 6 hours.

It was estimated to be a rail system that would last 30 years. From the upfront cost alone, that's $43 million per year.

Now, how many people go from Columbus, Ohio to Chicago on a daily basis - or weekly, or even monthly? How many to Ft. Wayne, and all the other stops?

Add in drive time for a person to get to one of the stations - would it save time? Perhaps for some, probably not for others.

The article I read about it said it would save "households" $6 billion over the 30 years - but in fairness - it didn't say how it would save that. It also said it would create 16,000 new jobs. Again, it didn't say HOW it would create the jobs.

And, the article also stated it would be eligible for up to 80% funding from the federal gov't. (that money comes from the fewer and fewer that actually pay taxes).

And, if they estimate an upfront cost of $1.3 billion - we all know $2.6 billion is probably closer, not?

Just throwing this out there. http://www.columbusunderground.com/high-speed-rail-line-proposed-between-columbus-and-chicago-bw1

thats true.

i still think you could connect the east though. it doesn't have to be high speed rail.

example(just my opinion, before Arch comes flying down the rafters) Frankfurt is a central hub for the high speed rails. well, you can take it to paris and such, places far away.

sort of like how you said Charlotte to DC.

well, there's no point for a high speed rail from Frankurt to mannheim(where i was stationed), or the equivalent, Cleveland to Columbus.

However, they still have trains that make a very reasonable time to those places. it also cost less. and it doesn't stop every every little city.

for instance, a very good rail system that people would absolutely take(myself i know) would be cleveland to columbus. the only stop needed would be in between, aka Mansfield.

mini hubs, main hubs.

then you invest in the local systems, street trains, buses, etc.

this is fun, cause this was sort of my job in the military, logistics.

so pull up a map of the USA. lets focus on the east coast.

instantly, i see Atlanta GA as a main hub. i see DC as a main Hub.

ok, so there can be a high speed railway connected to both. straight shot.

side note: people need to understand (DC i think you already know so no worries), high speed means high SPEED.

ok. so ATL to charlotte, doesn't need a high speed rail. but it could definitely have a rail system thats still very quick, with Greenville being a stop in between.

there's a bunch of examples i can make, but that was the easiest.

there's plenty of money to be made, and the investment would pay off huge.

but like you said, people are gonna want a rail system in even their tiny ass cities. but you can't please everybody.

But every major city should have something like this. i believe.

Take my opinion how you want.

I'm in favor of making smart financial decisions. My opinion is this: the cost involved does not justify the ends. Take it for what it's worth. No need to get on my case.


Hey, how often would you travel, by train, from Cleveland to Columbus?

every home game of ohio state B-ball and football. also i have family there i see once a month.

And we don't need to gut the system.

we just need to make it better. there's a reason AMTRAK is making crazy money going back and forth to different cities. because people use them.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1246041980246

thats a map of what Amtrak operates.

we're talking improving the system. adding a bit more routes .i dunno what idea you had in your head.