DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shanahan and Loggains

I'm curious about the opinions the people on this board hold about our former coaches. I'll start with a few questions to ponder, but leave my opinions till after the discussion gets going.

Was Shanahan/Loggains good/bad for the team? In what way?

What were their strengths/weaknesses?

How do they compare to other current/former Browns coaches?

What would you have done differently/the same?


Let's try to keep things relatively civil and avoid blunt declarations. Try to explain your thinking beyond yes, no, good, bad, Grrrr, etc. I know the topic is bound to bring out some aggression, but can we please try to keep it to a minimum.

Grimm, you are about to get beat on like a dead horse LOL This has been a topic of contention for months now.

Shanahan I thought did a pretty good job for about half the year, Then he couldn't get anything out of the Offense anymore. Lots of reasons, Mack going down, Gordon came back and frankly he caused lots of problems. Hoyer wasn't dialed in etc.

Loggains I have no feelings about one way or the other.

they were both excellent coaches IMO, Shanny will be missed.

There was a reason those receivers were so wide open and missed passes notwithstanding a lot of it had to do with shanny's ,scheme.

Loggains, IMO is more easily replaced.

I will miss some of Shanny's offense, I suspect. Just another guy to beat now.

Was Loggains here?

Personally.

I loved the Shanahan offense.

The no huddle, pistol formations, the zone running.

It was the best looking offense we had run probably since 2007 with Derek Anderson.

He might have been a D-bag behind the scenes and with the players (so the rumors go) but his offense on the field worked. I severely doubt it was Shanahans fault that Hoyers arm strength, accuracy and mechanics broke down during the final stretch of the season. Also wasn't Shanahans fault that Alex Mack got injured.

Wish the guy was still around, but I'm hoping the offense we run this up coming season will at last be similar. No reason to shy away from a style that was effective for us....

Not trying to be mean but can we please just close this thread? This thread has been a topic in every other thread.

If it's been a topic in every other thread, opening up a thread of its own should clean up the others.

I worry that I'm going to miss Shanny once this season has started. He sure did have that offense humming along right out of the gate. One thing to point out early is that the offense was Shanahan's. Pettine can't (and didn't) take any credit (zero) for it. He gets 100% of the credit, and that unit was very effective while the players were healthy and executing. I don't lay the blame of the offense dropping off only at Shanny's feet. The fact that they were shuffling linemen around like crazy tells me they didn't have the horses to get back on track. Also, we didn't have that many horses to begin with. The offense had a whole bunch of question marks as far as talent, so the fact we had any type of success was impressive. I remember back to training camp last year when they were interviewing Joe Thomas, and he was explaining how tough it was learning new systems. Others teams were learning the "calculus" of their systems, while the Browns were doing the intro course to theirs. Well, we came out of the gate really well. Again, that's a testament to Shanny.
That being said, Shanny seemed like a big d-bag. The stories of his douchiness have followed him from when he was in the league, and peaked when he was with the skins, to us. I don't begrudge Pet or the FO for letting him walk if he was as much of a jerk as quite a few people made him out to be. Does this offset the good things he did here and make me happy he left? For me, maybe. I admit that I'm probably being emotional and biased, but you asked for my opinions, so I'm giving them unedited and unfiltered. I believe Shanny blew the whistle on textgate, and I think that was a super douchy move. When that went down, I said good riddance. Again, emotional and biased... probably.

As for Loggains. Ugh. That guy was a loudmouth idiot. He's a reporter's dream. The stupidity that came out of his mouth was epic, and he couldn't shut up to save his life.

Combine that with partying with Gordon on the plane, and the fact that our QBs looked completely uncoached (Hoyer looked like he was de-coached through the year), and his leaving is the epitome of addition by subtraction.

I don't see Loggains as having been an excellent coach while he was here. He did little to develop the QBs we had, and Hoyer's mechanics completely fell apart as the year progressed. To me, that falls on the head of the QB coach.

I liked Shanahan's scheme, but I feel like the longer he and Loggains were in charge, the worse our QBs got. I've come to the conclusion, quite possibly erroneous, that the issue had to be coaching (maybe teaching is more appropriate). Hoyer's mechanics got worse as the season went along and they definitely didn't seem to have Johnny ready. Some have blamed Farmer for the Johnny selection and Manziel's attitude is surely partly to blame, but what exactly were they doing with him during practice? He looked worse than he did his first start at A&M.

I think Shanahan is a smart guy when it comes to X's and O's, and could probably write a great book on NFL offenses. It just doesn't seem to me that he really has the social/teaching skills to really reach his players/students. I'm hoping our new guys can connect better, in addition to a solid grasp of the minutiae of effective offensive football.

jmho

I'm not sure if the regression of Hoyer was simply a matter of coaching. Not saying it wasn't a component, but not so sure that it was. My counterpoints are as follows.....

Hoyer had been in the league for years. Coached supposedly by some of the leagues best coaching in New England prior. He came out showing very good mechanics and production earlier in the season and regressed from there. From outward appearance, one could deem this as a mental issue on the part of Hoyer more so than a coaching issue. I'm not saying this was the case, but more than it's a good possibility.

When we look at Manziel, it seems to be widely known that Manziel had issues outside the game as well as a lackadaisical approach to his work ethic. I'm not so sure coaching could overcome those obstacles.

Then we can look at Conner Shaw. A guy obviously lacking in the physical tools to be a complete NFL QB, yet seemingly having it together to make the very most of his limited talent on the field. So by coaching standards, it would appear when given the raw talent that is willing to work, they did a very good job of preparing Shaw.

As I stated, I'm not trying to say they were great at developing QB's, but what I can say is it's obvious other teams saw weaknesses in Hoyers game and Manziel simply didn't put forth the effort.

Now in terms of Shanahan. I believe many in the past put forth a one sided argument as well. I do believe part of the reasoning for Shanahan wanting out has to lay squarely at the feet of Farmer. I don't believe any coach who has options would want to work in the environment of Textgate. I know I certainly wouldn't.

I believe he has great talent and excellent schemes. While we all hope Flip does just as good of a job if not better, the pedigree and his abilities are a huge question mark. People can say Shanahan doesn't work well with others, but I really didn't hear a word from our players that were negative about Shanahan. In fact, if we are to believe any of what was reported, Hoyer actually liked Shanahan and was in his corner. I don't believe Hoyer would take such a position if he felt Shanahan and company weren't doing everything possible to "coach him up". I feel he must have believed in Shanahan and his schemes, and also felt supported by Shanahan.

So a lot was said and repeated when Shanahan left that can not really be supported by fact one way or the other.

Your point about Shaw is a good one. I didn't consider/forgot about that.

I think Norv and Chud were more QB/throwing game guys and did a good job with Hoyer. I think their preparation/teaching was what had Hoyer playing well at the beginning of the season. I feel like the more Shanahan tried to get Hoyer to play perfect the more he struggled.

I think Shanahan like his father is more of a RB/running game guy. I think the micromanagement tendencies they've shown work better at that position as opposed to where the QB is reliant on more things not directly within his control. Link-Shanahans and QBs

I hope Flip can get the best out of everyone.

Zone running & stretch plays. Bootlegs & Play-action. No huddle & fast paced running attack.

I hope Flip recognizes that it worked well at times for our players last year and installs it into the offense this up coming season.

Whenever the offense was flat, all Shanahan had to do was switch to the no huddle and it seemed to create a spark.

As a fan, I'm hoping the offense being installed isn't 100% new and different. No reason to shy away from the things that WORKED well last year. Unlike most years our offense showed signs of progress and life and I would just hate to see ALL OF IT tossed out the window.

Was Turner a "throwing guy" when he had Tomlinson, Davis, or Smith?

Yes, He had guys like Philip Rivers and Troy Aikman then, too. When he had great backs/running games he was balanced, but still seemed a "throwing guy" at heart. Because he was that type of guy those running backs had lots of space and so produced big numbers.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I thought Norv was more of a pass deep to set up the run philosophy. Shanahan is more of a run to set up the play action philosophy.


I'm drawing a blank on Davis, can someone jog my memory?

Pettine sure seemed like it was a no-love-lost thing when Shanny left. That could have been because Shanny wanted out so Pettine figured don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass simply because he wanted out. That would likely have been my reaction.

And maybe a part of it was Pettine and Shanny having a conversation before Pettine went on vacation that made Pettine think all is well, yet upon his return Shanny expressed his desire to leave and IIRC had already been in touch with others for a job. (not entirely sure about that). IF the "already been in touch with others for a job" is true, (and I'm not certain that it is), then that's one backstabbin' MoFo. (When the cat's away the mouse will play sort of thing.)

To compicate it further, Shanny had 32 points of contention as his reasons for wanting out. So it seems his reasons went 31 points beyond the texting issue alone. I sure would like to see the 32 points. He must have spent considerable time, over a considerable time, developing that list. It's hard for me to believe none of them involved the coaching staff nor had anything to do with a clash of personalities. Then, if considering the possibility that the articles written about his conduct/social issues while with Washington are leaning toward the truth he might really have problems getting along with others.

I don't know what happened or what any of his reasons were. But I like to think that the FO and Pettine looked at that list and accepted that at least some of that stuff has to change. That would make the whole ordeal a positive from a moving forward perspective.

Isn't Shanahan and Loggains a comedy team?

Not sure about that, but you and your keyboard seem to be auditioning for a stand-up gig.

I guess you actually touched on things that concern me. We're not really sure what went on behind the scenes. I'm not sure of where the timeline of textgate enters into everything. At what point he knew about them and at what point he may have been informed of their content. Or even if they were sent to him directly. I have no way of knowing any of that for sure.

Some of those points may of had a dramatic impact on the timing of everything or may not have. I'd like to see that list as well.

No. It's just that some of these topics amaze me...

We'd probably agree with 2/3 of it.

I don't doubt it. With so many people new at their respective positions in the coaching staff and FO, there is sure to be some growing pains.

I realize some will rebuke this, but I do know a little about offensive scheme and play calling.

I say.......

--I was perhaps the only person on this board who defended Bruce Arians.

--I am one of the few who have defended Shanny.

--Since our rebirth, I have not seen a better designer of plays than Shanny's.

--I was not thrilled w/the hire. I thought it was an okay hire.

--However, I started watching the games and I was blown away w/how many guys were wide open in our route trees. It was amazing how he developed those trees. They were very complex and they made the defenders have to make quick decisions because they crossed lanes and zones so often.

--Read that last part again, because it is freaking HUGE! The route trees [and up yours if you make fun of that terminology again] ran receivers across zone and man responsibilities. You see, most teams play a combination of the two and when our guys ran across those areas, defenders had to make quick decisions that often left us w/wide freaking open receivers. It was brilliant. Best I have ever seen.

--The ZBS was awesome. We finally had a running game w/below average RBs. That helped take the pressure off of the passing game, and when we play faked, then boot legged to the weak side, that left wide open WRs 40-50 yds. down the field. Too bad Hoyer couldn't throw it well enough. We completed many of them, but they hung like punts. Can you imagine what Ryan will do on those plays? And I am not even a Ryan fan. I think he is a choker, but man, he will make his throws.

--Loggains? I don't know. I read up on him and he is well respected by NFL coaches. That is important.

--The guys that replaced them? I am not saying they won't be better, but I am saying I doubt it. They have almost no experience at their jobs. Yeah, they might be diamonds in the rough and be outstanding, but in reality, the chances are that they were promoted above their means because who the hell else who has any value would want to coach for a team w/such a screwed up FO?

Nope, no rebukes. I actually agree with most of it.

I agree that Shanny's plays worked really well, but I also think that former Browns play callers would have had more success if they had had the line we had to start last season. That group really seemed to be clicking till Mack went down. Still, yes, great play design.

If Atlanta can keep Ryan upright, He and Julio Jones will probably put up some nice numbers. Tevin Coleman is the guy I think could actually have a monster year.

I do wonder how long he'll stick around there.

The only thing I don't really agree with is the last bit of the last bullet. I think our FO's screwed up-ness is overblown in the media. We've clearly had our growing pains, but I think not having a surefire answer at QB was a bigger deterrent.

Hopefully, Flip works out better. This one does seem to be off to a better start team cohesion wise. I always felt like Shanahan was a shotgun wedding sort of situation, this feels more like a mutual choice by Pet and Flip.

You and I both .... and I was one of very few who wanted us to hire him before we hired Chud.

To put what you said a little differently, I'm worried that I'm really going to start missing Shanny when the season starts. Flip is a huge ?, and I'm really worried about the potential downgrade from Shanny to him. Worse, Pett is hands off on the offense, being such a d guy. If Flip turns out to be a dumpster fire, we've got no backup at all.

Cleveland Browns coach Mike Pettine becoming increasingly involved in team's offensive planning

AURORA, Ohio – A year ago, Mike Pettine paid a visit to his hometown in suburban Philadelphia and answered questions about his days as a daring offensive play-caller.

The former prep coach chuckled as a local reporter reminded him of the trick plays he ran against his father's team.

"That side of my brain's been sort of asleep for a while," Pettine said.

It's awake now.

Pettine, who spent more than a decade as an NFL defensive assistant and coordinator, is taking a more active role in the offense in his second year as Browns head coach. He carries a playbook. He studies formations on flash cards. He sits in all offensive meetings.

"It's been great," Pettine said Friday at a team golf outing. "I feel very rejuvenated as a coach to be a part of it."

The former prep quarterback plans to work closely with first-time NFL offensive coordinator John DeFilippo as they try to resurrect a unit that finished 27th in scoring and 22nd in yards per game a year ago. That's no easy task for an offense that lost veteran coordinator Kyle Shanahan, former Pro Bowl tight end Jordan Cameron and its best offensive weapon, receiver Josh Gordon, to a season-long suspension for violating the league's substance abuse policy.


Mike Pettine

Browns head coach Mike Pettine listens during a news conference with new offensive coordinator John DiFilippo.

Associated Press

Pettine led the Browns to an improved 7-9 mark last season, but focused much of his time on installing his defense, overseeing the club and extinguishing brush fires created by the off-field exploits of young players like Johnny Manziel. The coach said he intended to become more offensively inclined even had Shanahan stayed.

Instead, the former Browns coordinator resigned amid controversy and left the offense to start over with DeFilippo and several new offensive assistants. The Browns expect to start 35-year-old journeyman Josh McCown at quarterback with Manziel trying to rebound from a turbulent rookie season on and off the field.

Pettine is eager to face the challenge and seems unfazed by criticism of the quarterback situation and lack of playmakers. He was part of a Jets coaching staff that made back-to-back AFC title game appearances with game manager Mark Sanchez as quarterback in 2009-10.

"It's a formula, it's not the most common path, people still try to be quarterback driven, and I'm not saying we are going to be looking to win games 9-6," Pettine said. "We still want to be explosive on offense. We just don't want to put our quarterback in situations where the percentages aren't there.

"We don't want to be in third-and-long and second-and-long, where the quarterback is getting hit a lot. When a quarterback is upright and can get through his reads quick and get the ball out of his hands he's a lot better. When you get hit early, you are kind of seeing ghosts late. You are not as accurate. We want to make his life easier."

Pettine believes he and DeFilippo are "on the same page" philosophically. There's little question the Browns will run the ball with regularity as they did a season ago.

With Shanahan guiding the offense, Pettine rarely involved himself in particular play calls. That could change this season.

"If I'm involved in the game planning I could certainly see that happening, getting more specific on game day," he said.

Pettine ran a creative offense as head coach of North Penn High School while amassing a 45-15 record. His input into the Browns' attack, however, will come from the insights of a longtime NFL defensive assistant.

"I want to be part of the game planning as well just to give them the defensive perspective of who they are going against," Pettine said. "I have a good feel for NFL defenses, having studied a lot of them and knowing the coaching trees, the different styles and rules within those. I think that's where I can be beneficial."


http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._social_feature

I wonder what people will think of that???

Planning or play calling?...an obvious difference. He should be able to input expert insight from a defensive perspective. If it's acrual play calling, perhaps that should be left to the OC unless he is fully competent in this aspect of the game...

Pettine indicated he may have influence in the play calling for the offense this season at his golf presser. Rookie o coordinator, I don't view it as a negative or "power trip" ordeal.

We were 27th in scoring???

That seems awfully low.

Not sure if Pettine getting more involved in offense is good or bad thing. He's the HC, he should be involved at some level.

Pettine did the same thing last year with the D. He had a first time DC and he spent a lot of time there. This year, he's looking at the O. I see nothing wrong with that.

Great question, will see I guess?

I wasn't a huge fan of Shanny but I didn't think he was awful either I guess I was numb when it came to him.

I thought he lacked in the game plan side of things, he was more like this is what we do thru failure and success.

In the end I thought the offense became to predictable, and especially so as defenses became more disciplined against the ZB scheme.

He IMO over used the PA pass and the roll outs, and I didn't think he ever really took advantage of Hoyers strengths who IMO was very much a rhythm passer.

When I contrast his play calling back against NT, I liked Turners better, but thats because I thought Turners offense was better suited to the talent he had.

I kept waiting for his counter move to defenses stuffing the run game but it never came.

I don't know how Pet will do as he becomes more involved in the offensive side of the field. Last season by his own admission he had almost nothing to do with the offense and has no track record that you can go back and look at. I think the combo of Flap (unknown) and Pet (unknown) gives the Browns and early advantage but like Shanny will they adjust and grow their game plan as the season progresses, and defenses adjust?

Well, he is the head coach, so he should be involved. Ideas and play calling style should be a group discussion.

Now if he's drawing up plays and calling plays on gameday, then we may have problems.

Who knows. I'm sure some people will have flash backs to Marty. Me personally, I think Pettine is a smart and quality coach, so I have no problems with it.

As for the thread at hand, I loved Shanahan and love the ZBS. I'm excited that we are keeping the ZBS. I thought Shanahan was clearly the brightest offensive mind the franchise has had since Infante. And I think there is a reason that when Shanahan leaves a team, he burns all bridges.

It is what it is. Hopefully we can recover.

Good post! It sounds almost...upbeat.