DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

He did make up at least a 3rd of the routes when on the field, and maybe he shouldn't have been playing at all but thats more a question for the coaches then Hoyer?

While 9 picks is quite a few for 5 games its not a lot of attempts per game to a receiver hell he doesn't have to even run the routes wrong that often to have a huge negative effect on the game and the QB..

Ultimately the picks fall on Hoyer that should always be stated, its just strange as hell that the guy thru 3 over 9 and when Gordon comes back it goes to 9 over 5 and Gordon says he didn't know the routes??? Is 2+2 still 4? [Shrug]

I'm spewing reasons why I didn't think his play was great.

You're making excuses for why his play suffered.

We're both spewing the same crap over and over each day.

I guess replying to each other at this point is a waste of time.

Hoyer wasn't worth building around, so he's gone.

That's it.

As Browns fans, it's time to just move on and pray to the football gods that either McCown, Manziel or even Shaw can step up and lead this team to some W's this up coming season.

After a seasons worth of starts for his career and a 10-7 record at worst he is a ???

But for me its much simpler then that. He was the BEST we had and still would be the BEST we have if he were here. Its a HUGE mismanagement and disservice to the fan base to let him go in light of theses reasons.

At this point I would say the reason he isn't here is because of Flip, I read the other day he was very influential in bringing McCown here. I strongly suspect that Hoyer and he didn't exactly hit it off in their meeting, and that is the reason Hoyer isn't here any longer. I am very cool with Flip bringing in his guy and have thought from the very beginning that Flip would be the guy taking the hit at the close of the 2015 season, so now he gets to go down with his guy. I wish him luck because he is going to need it.

I think yourself and many others have allowed yourself to buy into the idea that the Browns will carry the team via the run game and that is very unrealistic in today's NFL. When called upon we will need a QB that can play and we got nothing IMO. One of the things NFL defenses try to do is make the offense one dimensional we are one dimensional at the opening snap, but will see...

I stand with my prior prediction 2-14 here we come.

I agree 8-10 wins is possible, with our Defense being greatly improved especially against the run, and if we get just average play at the QB position our O will be fine, with the OL even better than before and our 3 headed monster @ RB, and our WR's may not be great but they are very good IMO, I still have concerns with our TE's catching the ball (Not Their Blocking), we are being built exactly like Seattle IMO and all we need is for Johnny to step up and be our Russell Wilson ... JMHO

The 2014 Cleveland Browns were a team dependent on the running game. In games that our running game showed up, it aided Hoyer greatly and we won most of them. In the games where we faced opposing defenses that were able to stop the run and force Hoyer to throw, we lost. He was completely ineffective against good defenses. That's all I'll dive into that topic as I've brought it up multiple times now.

While you're certainly correct in saying we need a QB that can play and right now we have two gigantic question marks. I just think we would be in the same situation even with Hoyer. The team continuity and chemistry would probably look a lot better, but we would still very much be an offense dependent on the run and a strong defense.

We can continue to disagree on him though.

If we have a strong running game, and a very strong defense, I do honestly believe we'll get enough production out of SOMEONE to compete this up coming season and get some wins. To me, we have too much talent to go 2-14 (barring a handful of major injuries or something).

Not involving myself into your guy's argument, but I agree with this post. I've said it hundreds of times too, no run game and some shifting of responsibility to Brian was too much for him.

Let's be real, even when the run game was in effect, Brian still couldn't capitalize on the opportunities, especially those resulting from play action, either.

We wanna dive a little too deep in the x's and o's, but the fact on the surface was Hoyer couldn't display enough to want to be retained by a team that has no decent options at that position.

I wonder how many games Hoyer could of won with Tampa's 30th ranked O Line and Running game..

Yes they were, and that was there tendency.

I hate writing long post and this is going to be abbreviated for that reason.

Ytown put up stats from a year ago and the Browns ran approximately 100 more times then they thru on 1st down. @250 to 150 so the Browns tendency was to run on 1st down by a large margin. Oddly defenses are put together to stop teams tendencies. For the purposes of this post take that out to its next level.

Look at the yardage on 1st down early and late in the season, and without looking I can figure out that the run game was not successful late in the year. We know that Shanny stayed with the run game even when it wasn't working. We also know that when you consistently put QB's (doesn't matter who) in 2nd and 3rd and long situations the success rate goes down.

Then go back and look at how Hoyer did in Turners offense which was built around the passing game and watch and see how Hoyer did.

You are basing your opinion strictly on stats, and IMO your failing to realize that when you over commit to or show tendencies defenses load up on you. Some posters on here have even allowed themselves to believe that defenses were daring Hoyer to throw the ball and what they were really doing was defending against our tendencies.

That's enough for now but stats are too black and white, and there a tool but you can't just say here are the stats look we are this and not follow it out and say what does that mean? In this case it means 2nd and 3rd and long. Then look at the stats for 3rd down -vs-s distance -vs- successful conversations turnovers, etc. etc. Then you have built a case thru the use of stats, but take any one stat and you can find something that supports almost any position you wish to have.

So in your opinion.. Is anything that went wrong in 2014 Hoyer's fault?

Or is he just an innocent Franchise QB waiting to happen, that never got a fair chance because of the big bad Browns Front Office?

Well if your going to try to convince me that my opinion is wrong your going to have to do way better then this.

I never said Hoyer was without fault, but I have asked that you look deeper into the stats your trying to use to convince more your-self's then me that the choices that were made were the right choices.

Your single minded focus needs to expand and it needs to be done without bias and see where it takes you is what I have said. But asking for thoughtful reason may not be something your not equipped to manage.

While I'm not defending your general opinion on the QB thing, the quote above regarding stats is spot on.

Stats do tell us, factually, what happened. They do not tell us, at all, WHY it happened.

That's that for stats.

Again, for your viewing pleasure: Again, am I the only one who see's some of this stuff?

There is a saying: It's not how you START....It's how you FINISH.


You can bicker back and forth all you want. Talk about all the wins BH got us. Never played in a meaningful game in Dec. since '07...Blah Blah Blah. The FACT is he stunk up the joint when it counted the most. Where are all the posts that say we are 9-6 with BH, BUT we could have been or SHOULD have been 12-6 and in the PO hunt. He is as much the REASON we are NOT as he is the REASON we WERE winning.

Solid points bleednbrown ^^

He had a big hand in some of our wins, and an equally big hand in some of our losses.

BTTB won't comment on this. He's always hollering about Poor BH. It's a Team Game. Gotta own up on this one.

Alex Mack......

That's that for WHY.

That and force feeding Gordon when he clearly wasn't ready and then you had two backs that hit a rookie wall.

I only brought it up cause I have yet to see any kind of answer concerning, while he gave us early wins, he also gave us late losses. No mention of these losses was made. I'm pulling a Vers. I'm taking the other side of the road just because

Not to mention their defense, which allowed 4.5 more points per game that ours did. (Tampa allowing 25.6 PPG, 25th in the NFL, compared to the Browns allowing 21.1 PPG, 9th in the NFL)

The Bucs scored 17.3 PPG last year, and we scored 18.7 last year. They had 3 defensive TD last year, and we also had 3 defensive TD and a Safety scored by the defense.

Why he was at the same place our much vaunted running game was. You know the running game that is going to carry us to victory this year and the running game that got us all those wins last year....

As for Hoyer playing with the Bucs O what you have really done is show how poorly McCown played and I fail to see where that is a reflection good or bad on Hoyer. If your asking what if Hoyer sucked as bad as McCown I would say we would have looked like the 2014 Bucs..........

I believe it is a legitimate question to ask how Hoyer would have performed with a much worse defense and OL in T. Bay, but there is no concrete answer to the question.

With my best snarled face.... You would.....

I loved what Hoyer did for us starting the season last year. Looked legit. However, when it came to money time, he faltered. Reaction to a long rehab, pseudo-rookie wall, etc - I've peddled them all out. I liked the dude as a QB.

However, the bods in charge have decided, for reasons they believe, that McCown, Manziel or Shaw give us a better chance at winning. Since THEIR jobs depend on that decision and not mine, i'm going to go with that.

Hoyer was magnificent against Cincy.

Hoyer was equally inept when we needed him to be simply adequate.

Many reasons factor in that. Probably unfair to Hoyer, maybe not. This is a results driven business but I cannot believe if the FO and coaches thought Hoyer was the best option they would have let him walk. The amount of time he spent dangling in FA kinda supports that view.

That said, he's the best QB I've seen round these parts in many years. That makes me wanna puke. We deserve better but good QBs don't grow on trees. In my view the franchise is doing it right - we can't get a QB - build the team. You can't force what is not there.

I really hope Manziel can turn it around. That would be sweet.

This is one thing that has always bugged me.. I would say that Hoyer was really efficient against Cincy.. He completed 65% of his passes for less than 200 yards and had 0 touchdowns...

Our defense held the Bengals to less than 180 total yards and forced 3 interceptions....

He was magnificent for what he was asked to do, which wasn't much. And that's what pretty much summed up his year... the more he was asked to do, the worse he got.

Turned out that Cincinnati wasn't that magnificent.

Is it? Arizona waived Hoyer signed Palmer. Yep, Arizona wanted an injured prone QB over Hoyer.

I saw what Hoyer did for Cleveland. I get Hoyer was better than any QB in Cleveland. Arizona? Arizona waived Hoyer. This, and Hoyer not being sought after in this off season, I question Hoyer's worth.