DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Extra Points Moved to 15yd Line

He has the advantage of having better overall stats, he doesn't have an advantage in affecting the outcome of any individual game...

From a personal accomplishment standpoint, I understand why outdoor and cold weather kickers would be ticked, their stats won't be as good, less chance of making the pro-bowl, less chance to cash in on bigger contracts... I get that. But a kicker who proves he can perform in Cleveland or Pittsburgh is still going to have great value, nobody cares about the pro bowl.. and it's about who wins on Sunday anyway, and both kickers will be kicking in the same conditions.

Okay. Explained that way, it makes more sense.

My original thought was "where ever you're playing, the 2 kickers have the same conditions, so what's the bid deal?"

Flutie converts first drop kick since 1941 championship
1/2/2006
Doug Flutie New England Patriots


FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- For 21 years, Doug Flutie's career has
been defined by one play. Now the "Hail Flutie" has its historic
bookend.

The 43-year-old Patriots backup converted the NFL's first
successful drop kick since 1941, making an extra point in the
fourth quarter of the Miami Dolphins' mostly meaningless 28-26
victory Sunday over New England.

"I think Doug deserves it," said usually dour Patriots coach
Bill Belichick, who broke into a wide smile when his sprightly
quarterback split the uprights off one bounce. "He is a guy that
adds a lot to this game of football, has added a lot through his
great career -- running, passing and now kicking.

"He's got a skill and we got a chance to let him use it, and I
am happy for him. First time since '41," said Belichick, a
football historian who last month brought out a leather helmet in
his media session. "It might be 60 years again, too."

According to the Pro Football Hall of Fame's Web site, the
league's last drop kick for points was on Dec. 21, 1941 -- two weeks
after the bombing of Pearl Harbor -- when Ray "Scooter" McLean
converted for the Chicago Bears to beat the New York Giants 37-9 in
the NFL championship game.

"Flutie might have been there the last time it happened,"
placekicker Adam Vinatieri joked.

The ball was more round until 1934, making the bounce more
predictable. And the rules were changed to require the kicker to be
behind the line of scrimmage, relegating the drop kick to a riskier
version of a place kick or extra point.


The drop kick remains in the NFL's official rule book, even though it hadn't been successfully converted in decades. Rule 3, Section 8 defines the drop kick as "a kick by a kicker who drops the ball and kicks it as, or immediately after, it touches the ground."

According to the Hall of Fame's site, ex-Bears quarterback Jim McMahon begged his coach for a chance to attempt a drop kick in a game. But his coach, Mike Ditka, denied the request.

But when ESPN broadcaster Chris Berman mentioned to Belichick
that he'd seen Flutie drop kick, the coach called his quarterback
into his office and asked if he could do it.

"I said, 'I could do it,' " Flutie said. "'There's no real
application for it, but I could do it.' "

A native of nearby Natick, Flutie won the Heisman Trophy at
Boston College after connecting with Gerard Phelan on a 48-yard
touchdown pass to beat Miami as time expired. That is his signature
play -- and one of the most memorable in college football history.

With the Patriots already happy with their playoff seeding, Tom Brady sat out most of the game so Matt Cassel, who's usually No. 3
behind Flutie, could get some snaps. He hit Tim Dwight for a 9-yard
touchdown with 6:10 left, and Flutie came onto the field with the
kicking unit.

"It sort of screwed me up," said Dolphins coach Nick Saban,
who needed a timeout to get things straight. "I couldn't figure
out what was going on. They had a quarterback in, four tight ends
and a receiver and there was no kicker."

Flutie took his position for a regular shotgun snap, then
retreated to the 12 yard-line to await the ball; he caught the
ball, dropped it to the grass and kicked it off the short hop
straight through the uprights. After getting a hug on the field by
his teammates, Flutie ran off to embrace Belichick.

Even Saban appreciated the moment.

"I was kind of pleased to know that somebody can still drop
kick," Saban said. "Man, when I was a kid we all practiced that.
Thought it was a lost art.

"But," he added, "you know Flutie showed his age on that
one."

The 1984 Heisman winner went into the USFL and the NFL, but only
achieved stardom in the Canadian Football League, where he was a
three-time Grey Cup champion and six-time Most Outstanding Player.
He returned to the NFL in 1998 and played three years with Buffalo
and four with San Diego before returning to New England for a
second stint with the Patriots.

He hasn't said he will retire, but the impression that this is
his final season was reinforced by Belichick's postgame
valedictory.

"It's possible, but I'm not going to rule anything out,"
Flutie said. "But if that ends up being my last play, it wouldn't
be bad."

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

ESPN

You may have just found his true calling!

Wonder if it will flop in the pre-season? Remember that experiment they tried in 2014 and flopped in the Pre-season last year?!

I wish I would've worded my post a bit different, I've been on here before praising the coverage units for as you said, they were exceptional.

...

Also, I should state that whenever we "do" have a splash play on a return, I automatically look at the TV where the Penalty Flag notification appears. We GOT to clean that up too since we're talking special teams.

It is equally likely that the Browns win because the team they are playing misses the extra points and vice versa in Indianapolis...

In the scenario you described, the Browns only have one job and that is to beat the team on the field with them... and if they lose, it's not because the kicker in Indianapolis was in a dome...

DC, do you see a real "need" for this improvement? Was there some major groundswell for change? These cosmetic changes and experiments just seem dopey to me. And if it was a sound decision, one fan-driven, fan -supported, and fan initiated, why set a limit. Like Pro Bowl experiments?

Seem to be taking a lot of skill out as we whittle away some ST play. Notr sure what needed correction.

Nope, none, zero, zilch, nada.. I'm opposed to it. I just don't see how it really favors anybody.. well, I guess it favors the teams with better kickers but as far as indoor/outdoor, cold/warm.. I don't see how it gives anybody an advantage.

It's a routine play that almost never misses, there are about 4 or 5 of them a game, they take 30 seconds... evidently the NFL felt like they had to inject some kind of drama into those 30 second plays.. I don't know why. Does anybody not watch football or go to games or buy jerseys because they have to sit through a few routine extra points per game? I highly doubt it.

In fact, if you want me to go full devils advocate here, the kicker now has a much greater chance of being blocked.. the DL will now surge forward and try to get the edge much more aggressively than they did on routine extra points... or teams will go for 2 more often, which means running a full blown play.. both of which increase the chance of injury. When is the last time you saw somebody get seriously hurt on a kicked extra point? I don't remember any... so the league, in it's quest for player safety, has now taken just about the safest play in the game and made it more dangerous.

It is my opinion that they fixed something that wasn't broken.

jc..


From the aspect of an XP to tie or win a game, it does make it more dramatic and interesting with the better chance for a block.

I'd compare it to my grandma changing around her living room every other week just because she felt like it..

It didn't need to be done, and all it does is annoy her cats..

As an owner of two cats myself, I found that reply to be funny.

I agree whole heartily though. Why fix with something when it isn't broken?

I know what you mean, but I do find this saying funny at times, because it really is subjective..


wasn't broken either....

Extra points aren't relevant to the Browns anyway. You have to be able to score TDs.

.....solid point.

Extra points aren't relevant to the Browns offense anyway.

Fixed this for you guys, because it could be very relevant for our defense this year.

They better hope the defense scores!

The way I read it - it is a "rule change", and not a pre-season trial change.

I keep hearing this quote over and over in regards to the PAT change. In my opinion, it was completely broken. In fact, the PAT was 99.7%* broken.

The PAT has become so routine that it might be the most boring play in all of sports (think about that for a second - I'd argue most fans are already walking to the bathroom or fridge as they line up for the PAT).

Look at it this way, if the NBA free throw line was directly under the basket, each free throw would be converted with the same odds as a current PAT. What fun is that? Where's the suspense? Where is the strategy? Why even bother have it if there were only a few times in the past decade where a miss changed the flow or outcome of a game?

I think the NFL has it right to change the PAT, to make it "better TV". I don't think they changed it enough though, but maybe that's why they did it.

I guess we should expect ~93.5% success rate from this new distance. It will add drama and might derail a game or two, but I don't think that's enough to force teams to stop kicking the 1-pointer and try for 2. I think it was someone on here that stated the odds would have to drop around 75% to force more coaches to try for 2 and that would be around a 40 yard PAT.

Going back to why they didn't make it 40, I don't think the fans are ready for it. Most NFL fans are burnt up over a slightly longer PAT and their teams probably won't even experience a miss next season (we will because our kicker stinks and we have an outdoor stadium with bad weather).

Ultimately, if the change and potentially more extreme changes bring more excitement and tension to the NFL, it's a good thing.

*I think my memory is correct in thinking the success rate of PATs in the past 5+ years.

rule change

Perhaps more dramatic, but is it better? Your QB gets the ball with 1:30 on the clock and 2 timeouts, down by 7.. he orchestrates a 9 play, 80 yard drive, culminating in a beautiful laser on a crossing route for a TD with just :04 left on the clock... then you miss the 33 yard extra point because the wind is blowing 40 mph or the field is a sloppy mess... Do we really want games decided like that?

People complain when a team gets to the 30 with :30 on the clock and down by 2 then runs into the LOS to set up the game winning FG rather than trying to get closer or even score a TD... so now we are putting even MORE of the outcome of the game on the kicker? I thought that was what we were trying to get away from..

I guess the NFL's counter would be, "why do we want the PAT to be so routine that it's an afterthought to the tying TD?". It should be suspenseful. And if it's suspenseful for the tying TD, it's also suspenseful for the go-ahead TD too.

I think their goal is to make the coaches decision tougher all throughout the game, not just on the potential game-tying TD.

To me, if the PAT was 40 yards, you would probably see more coaches going for 2 points early in the game. I think that's what the NFL wants, more twists and turns throughout the game with the PAT/2ptConversion.

When it is the opponents sure

That's just it, it is a rule for both sides, not just one. We are just such a pessimistic team because, well because our kicker has sucked the last couple years. .

We get a decent kicker and this could work to our favor as our kicker would be experienced in tough conditions, where a dome kicker could struggle.

I agree with Punch above that the intent is to force more coaches to consider going for 2.. and my guess is that in 32 NFL offices right now, somebody is going back through the data and running the numbers to determine if/when going for 2 is the more attractive option.

But to respond to your comments... it really has nothing to do with the quality of our kickers.... If the 16 or 17 guys that rotate in on our offensive possession move the ball down the field for that potential game tying TD against their best 16 or 17 guys that rotate in on a defensive possession, Who wants the 5'11" kicker to determine whether it was worth it or not?

However, as a lifelong Browns fan, watch... Manziel will play well, score a bunch of TDs and we'll still only win 8 games because we can't make an XP...

If the extra point is such a boring, mundane part of the game, why not eliminate it entirely? It would definitely shorten the games, as no time is run off the clock...and we'd get right back to meaningful play after a touchdown. Teams wouldn't get that breather or free timeout. Not sure the league would want to forfeit those commercial slots though.

eliminate the kick for an extra point and just make it all 2 pts.

I don't like it either but I'm not sure I see your point that it gives teams that play in domes an advantage. Wouldn't both kickers be kicking in the same conditions?

J/C ...... I hope we're looking for a 33 yard XP kick blocking specialist this training camp. (even though a 33 yarder is still little more than a formality)

I honestly think eliminating XPs is a slippery slope that would lead to removing kickoffs as well..

No XPs? Well Kickoffs are dangerous and also now boring, so we'll just give you the ball on the 20..

The only thing keeping Special Teams in the game IMO is TV time outs.. sadly..

kicking an extra point is about as exciting as watching a politician throw out the first pitch. eliminate kicking the one and force teams to go for two. make it a real bonus play.

How about three possibilities:

• A typical PAT for 1 point

• An offensive play from the 2 for 2 points

• A 40 yard kick for 3 points.

I rather just have the go for 2 from the 2 or 5 and eliminate the kicking of extra points all together

I like this, but would modify it as such:

1 Pt XP as normal. (the new placement is OK too)

2 Pt Conversion offensive play from the 1, with the defense allowed to return and score on an INT or Fumble.

2 Pt on a PK, from 50 yards. A kick short of the goalpost, or a blocked kick, can be returned for 2 points. If the offense recovers such a kick, the play is dead at that point.

A agree with what you have said, but then how many games are decided on a FG? It's the same kicker.

I'm not saying this change is right or wrong, just that I can see how they are trying to make the XP relevant, and for it to be a point "earned".

I think it is entirely possible, we will see more early 2pt tries, mainly because now you have field to work with.

Heck, I was always more confident with our chances of scoring from outside the 10, than inside.

Florida .... what do you mean by "more field to work with?"

Just curious?

I was under the assumption the 2 pt tries would still be taken from the 2 yards line?

They should give the team the choice of spotting the ball for a 2 pt conversion anywhere between the 1 and 10. One play where u can smash it in or if you want to throw from farther back gives you more more room to maneuver.

changing the sport for the sake of changing it, imo.


not a fan.

Hmm, I must have missed that, if so, it negates any advantage to it I see.