DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns mini camp...Phase 3: May 26-29, June 1-4, June 8-12

When camp starts, you will see Johnny's amount of reps with the first team growing and growing. Johnny will start unless he gives them a reason not to. He needs to play so we know what we have unless he sucks so bad that we already know what we have.

First day of OTAs shows Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel have work to do

BEREA, Ohio -- How did the Cleveland Browns' quarterbacks look on their first day of competitive OTA practice on Tuesday?

Like two guys learning a new system with a new coordinator and new receivers on the first day of an offseason practice.

“Sloppy” was the word Mike Pettine used for the whole team. It certainly applied to the first two quarterbacks, as both Josh McCown and Johnny Manziel threw plenty of footballs to the ground.

McCown might be able to afford the errors better than Manziel. Teammate Donte Whitner said Manziel’s rookie season was a disaster, so Manziel has two hurdles to overcome this offseason.

He first must get his life together off the field, which is why he spent 10 weeks in a treatment facility. Then he must prove he can play in the NFL on the field -- something he did not do one year ago.

Given that it’s May and it’s a new system, immediate precision should not be expected. But it’s also clear the Browns have a long way to go.

McCown got all the reps with the first team, Manziel took all the reps with the backups. Both had moments, but neither distinguished themselves.

Manziel, as always, was the focus of attention. His arm strength was evident when he threw in one-on-one drills, but when it got to “team” work there were … well … concerns.

He underthrew a short out route in seven-on-seven that was intercepted by K’Waun Williams, a throw against no rush that leaves most NFL quarterbacks simmering.

He dropped the ball on a rollout, had another throw blocked at the line and had an underthrow to Paul Browning knocked away by Kendall James.

“I don’t want to get into grading specific plays today,” coach Mike Pettine said.

He echoed a by-now familiar theme: Manziel has been more engaged in meetings than he was a year ago.

“We’re a new group,” McCown said. “And any time you come together as a new group there’s going to be growing pains.”

He then emphasized setting a high standard to “speed up that learning curve.”

“I want to see the Cleveland Browns and the quarterback position be better than it's been,” McCown said.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/...have-work-to-do

Sloppy...

Browns' Alex Mack acknowledges winning will be a factor in if he stays or goes

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._medium=twitter

We all know this, it was never a secret the minute he had the other team include an opt out clause that they knew the Browns would have to match.

Personally, I like Mack a lot. He's a very good player at a crucial position. If we win and he stays, then gravy... if not, there's a reason we drafted Erving. I hope we win and Mack stays and we end up having one of the best fronts both on offense and defense. How proud as Browns fans would we be to have the luxury of being able to say that with a straight face?

Day 1 of OTAs in a new offense.....I know, I expected flawlessness too!

j/c:

Finding the Fits: Edge rusher Nate Orchard to blossom for Browns

Cleveland's best fit: OLB Nate Orchard, No. 51 overall

Given that Cleveland finished dead last a year ago in run defense, it would be easy to call the selection of the 6-foot-3, 339 pound run-stuffing nose guard Danny Shelton - the Browns' first pick and the No. 12 overall selection - the club's best fit. Bottling up opposing running backs was hardly the Browns' only problem on defense a year ago, however, and with the hopeful return to health of Phil Taylor and Armonty Bryant as well as the addition of free agent Randy Starks, there is plenty of reason to believe that Mike Pettine's defense will be stouter in 2015.

Until the Browns selected Orchard with the 51st pick, however, there was plenty of concern as to how the club might be able to match last year's pass rush - which finished just 27th in the league.

The Browns boast one accomplished edge rusher in Paul Kruger, who led the club with 11 sacks and four forced fumbles a year ago. He didn't receive much help on the other side of Pettine's 3-4 alignment from former high picks Barkevious Mingo (No. 6 overall, 2013) or Jabaal Sheard (No. 37 overall, 2011), each of whom posted just two sacks last season. Mingo fell to just two sacks in 11 starts (15 games overall) after flashing with five sacks as a rookie and is coming off shoulder surgery. Sheard saw his sack numbers drop all four years in Cleveland and was signed away by the New England Patriots.

If production is what the Browns are looking for, Orchard is the right guy for the job, as his 1.42 sacks per game average led all of college football last year.

And while Orchard did most of his damage for Utah as defensive end, he was occasionally asked to rush out of the two-point stance and impressed with his agility and balance when dropping as a linebacker at the Senior Bowl.

What Orchard does best, of course, is rush the quarterback. He has a quick burst to cross the face of tackles, as well as an excellent counter back inside and uses his hands as well as any edge rusher in this class. Orchard's varied pass rush arsenal gave the top tackles he faced fits this year -- including first round pick Andrus Peat (New Orleans Saints) and second rounder Ty Sambrailo (Denver Broncos). It is a combination of technique, talent and hustle that could remind Cleveland fans of Kruger - who, of course, also spent his college days starring at defensive end for the Utah Utes.

Other thoughts on the Browns' 2015 draft class:

Both literally and figuratively, Shelton should be a huge addition for the Browns. As you'd expect for a man of his size, Shelton is a powerful run plugger capable of eating up blocks. He's remarkably light on his feet and passionate in pursuit, as well, making him a real threat to split gaps and make big plays behind the line of scrimmage, himself, as well as create opportunities for teammates.

Fellow first round selection Cam Erving saw time at center, right guard and right tackle in the team's rookie minicamp and recent OTAs. Switching positions, of course, is nothing new for Erving, who originally signed (and played) with Florida State on the defensive line before starring first at left tackle and then center on the offensive side of the ball. Given his relative inexperience, Erving is likely to struggle at times as a rookie but he possesses an exciting combination of length, strength and agility. If he isn't already one of the five best offensive linemen on Cleveland's roster, he soon will be.

As much as I like Duke Johnson, I was surprised to see him wind up in Cleveland. Johnson is an electric runner whose agility and acceleration make him a nightmare for defenders to handle in the open field but the often sloppy conditions at FirstEnergy Stadium threaten could slow him down a bit. Further, for a club already boasting two talented young runners in Terrance West and Isaiah Crowell, I wonder if there will be enough carries to keep all three backs happy.

If friendly competition among Cleveland's running backs can keep them motivated, Shelton's former Washington State rivals Xavier Cooper and Vince Mayle could also make things interesting. Cooper is one of the more intriguing developmental defensive tackles in this class. He isn't as stout against the run as Shelton but offers raw athleticism, including a quick burst, balance and tenacity. He was miscast at Washington State as a two-gap run-stuffer and would have produced better numbers if allowed to simply attack. Of course, all Mayle and Washington State's offense do under pass-happy head coach Mike Leach is attack. Mayle finished among the nation's leading receivers in virtually every category but doesn't offer game-breaking speed. In many ways, his game is similar to that of new teammate Dwayne Bowe. Each use their size and physicality to "box out" defenders to haul in passes. Neither, however, is likely to run away and create big plays on their own. Still, for a club that struggled passing the ball like Cleveland did a year ago, the refurbished receiving corps offers some hope for likely starting quarterback Josh McCown and perhaps even Johnny Manziel.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-d...ssom-for-browns

FWIW, Farmer went on record (before the draft) that there was one player he absolutely was "in love" with. Nathan Zegura of CBD then followed up post-draft saying Orchard was the guy.

We'll see if Farmer ended making the right choice.....

I have a feeling that Xavier Cooper is going to be a huge piece in our pass rushing puzzle this year.

Yeah, a lot of posters around here seem to like him a bunch.

Hard to not find an article regarding him that doesn't make note of his first step/burst. Jim O'Neil said he and the staff labeled him the fastest first step of all interior dlinemen.

Hope is high. Late third round gem potential there, even if we did need to trade up.

I've yet to read a single negative thing about the kid, I'm excited to see him. I even read an article on Bleacher Report and on CBS Sports stating the Xavier Cooper could be a name to watch among the later round defensive players.



Mike Pettine has preached competition since the day he's walked in the door. I honestly think Manziel is going to need to be convincingly better than Josh McCown in order to win the starting job. Not necessarily cause McCown is better, but he COULD be better right now. We have a team that's ready to win now (how often can we say that huh?), so Pettine is going to HAVE to play the guy that gives us the best chance to win. Playing Manziel "just to see what we have" isn't necessarily a good idea. If McCown is clearly the better QB, yet Pettine names Manziel the starter anyway, the veterans are going to pick up on that, and it's not going to end very well.

I tend to think that Pettine wants to let Manziel sit and really learn this season, unless he so completely outplays McCown in the pre-season that there is no way he can sit him.

If we get anything approaching average QB play, this will be a 9-11 win team.

Since we have 75 defensive lineman and no skill players, they should at least be able to stop the run, until they tire out in the second half.

Cleveland Browns given hefty system dose in first OTA practice

Mike Pettine called the first Cleveland Browns offseason practice sloppy, but he was not overtly angry about the sloppiness.

Pettine has an interesting philosophy about practice and learning.

While some coaches prefer their team learns things gradually, Pettine goes all-in right away.

He’ll ask his coaches to stretch his players ability to learn and master plays, formations and adjustments — then use mistakes to correct and teach.

Last season, he asked one player to align himself defensively head on with a lineman. The implication was he would blitz. Instead, Pettine asked him to get back in coverage.

When he couldn’t get back in time, Pettine learned that player might not be able to handle that assignment. So the coaching staff didn’t ask him to do it.

It was no problem, just a moment that showed the coaching staff something it needed to know.

Tuesday was that way. The Browns asked the offense to grasp a lot of John DeFilippo’s new offense and asked the defense to have a better understanding of the scheme it ran last season. Even though there is continuity on the defensive side from 2014, the challenge was for both units.

“We’ve put a lot in both sides of the ball and we’re going to do some things to test each other and some of it tests ourselves,” Pettine said.

It can be tough, as veterans and especially rookies find themselves thinking about the new system as opposed to just running it.

But that’s what Pettine wants.

Tuesday there were throws deep when a receiver ran out. Throws that landed on the ground as a receiver looked back in wonder. Those were the noticeable mistakes, because coverages, alignments and protections also are part of the learning curve.

Pettine didn’t shrug off the mistakes. He clearly doesn’t want them. But he did say he can take advantage of them — because that is his style.

“A lot of good teaching moments on tape,” Pettine said. “The key is that we can go in and get it graded and go through it with them and the mistakes are getting corrected and not repeated.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...st-ota-practice

I've read a lot of the same. Whats the reason he did not go late 1st or early 2nd? I guess inexperience? Fairly new to the position?

The reason, i think Johnny beats him out is because Johnny is better suited for this offense. Flip likes a lot of Quick wide receiver screens and swing passes to backs. Johnny can get the ball out on those swings easily and as quick as anyone in the league. Those big hands just engulf the ball and he doesnt have to spin it or line it up in his hands.

Johnny hasnt had a chance to show it but he has a really good deep ball. I just feel he is really well suited for this scheme. The deep ball is probably why we didnt retain Hoyer, knowing we were gonna bring in Flip and his version of the Coryell.

McCown however looked like damaged goods last year and if Johnny makes it close, he will get the nod. I like McCown as a leader and mentor but he is a quality backup and just not a starter in this league. We hope Johnny is but we wont know till the bullets start flying how either will react.

Going against this secondary day in and day out even with no contact will help.

I do hope Manziel beats out McCown.

I seriously do, because if he does that means he's taken a very big step from last year.

I'm just skeptical as we all should be, Manziel gave us a lot of reasons to be skeptical last year and in the off-season.

If he shows monster improvement in camp and the preseason, and the team responds to him and he makes the competition close. Give him the nod.

Whoever can help this team win games. Hell, even if it's Thad Lewis, I just want a competent QB under center in week one.

Everything said in this post was as if I had typed it out mysekf.

Agree with everything 100%. If Connor Shaw provides the best chance of victory, then Shaw should be it. Whoever. The position is clearly open and ripe for the taking.

I thought we were ground and pound, not air Coryell? Do you stay up at night making this stuff up or does it just ooze out of you?

The reason Hoyer wasn't retained is anyone's guess at this point but I have concluded it was because Hoyer and Flip didn't exactly hit it off, at least thats what it looks like ???? Don't know ???

Johnny hasn't shown his deep ball or anything in between because he wasn't ready to play last year (too busy with other interests). I haven't given up on him YET, but if he can't beat out McCown I would cut him. But hey thats just me.

I understand your giddy about this team they have some good talent being wasted because we undervalued the QB position. Thats the real bad news, the good news is we should be picking near the top of the draft next year if we have to fall back on 1-10 McCown.

Tab said it best he would have to have a career year, and how likely is that at 36? But to hear it ooze out of Berea you would think he won the SB, the reality is he was 1-10 had a 4-3 run (I think) with Chicago and other then that short run he has always sucked. Thats why I say if Johnny can't beat him out I would cut him. There is no point wasting time with a QB that can't beat out McCown no matter how much fluff comes oozing out of Berea.

3 win 2 loss at chicago as a starter. 4 win 12 loss over the last 2 years. well....... he plays like a brown i guess.

LMAO...McCown has been named the probable opening day starter.

Not that I'll the think it'll happen, but there's a great deal of time and events that could occur now until then.

I'm not sure what JF fate should be if he's unable to demonstrate first round talent to beat out the current crop of avg talent we have here. I'd say maybe stick a fork in him and shift hope/expectations to someone else.

By not drafting a Qb, one can only assume the staff is hoping for JF to do something this year.

Not that I'll the think it'll happen, but there's a great deal of time and events that could occur now until then.

I'm not sure what JF fate should be if he's unable to demonstrate first round talent to beat out the current crop of avg talent we have here. I'd say maybe stick a fork in him and shift hope/expectations to someone else.

By not drafting a Qb, one can only assume the staff is hoping for JF to do something this year in terms of being a capable starting Qb.

i dont want another summer where the "starter" gets 60% of the reps, and the "backup" gets 40%. Then come the start of the season the "starter" looks like crap (because he didnt get enough reps, or he just sucks), then the "backup" is all of a sudden the answer, but he sucks too because he got 40% of the reps all summer.

ive seen that crap too many times. we like to call it "camp competition." and each year we get to hear about how competition is a good thing, makes everyone better, etc etc.

im sorry but NO, those extra hundreds of reps with the first team is what makes the QB better, not competition.



so with that said, i hope manziel very quickly looks better than mccown. please god dont wait until preseason and give us another RAC coinflip for who the starter is going to be. decide and move forward with it.

I thought we were ground and pound, not air Coryell? Do you stay up at night making this stuff up or does it just ooze out of you?

Flip is installing his version of the Coryell offense. You try to be insulting and it just highlights your ignorance. He learned under Saunders a Coryell guru. He ran a similar offense in college the only new addition will be keeping some of that zone blocking scheme.

Are you telling me you can't pound the ball in a Coryell offense? Wonder if Faulk and Tomilinson would agree with that?

I am sorry that Hoyer can't throw the deep ball worth a damn but that lack of ability is a primary reason he is gone.

Now if you want to stop being insulting and get back to football I will oblige.

Johnny had an excellent deep ball in college but with the mechanics he showed last year, that may be lost. I really dont know if they will be able to fix the Mr Roboto release he was showing. looked like he was trying to throw darts instead of footballs. I never saw 2 qbs mechanics go from pretty good to horrible in such a short period of time on the same team.

As for Connor Shaw, I just dont see him fitting in here as more than a practice squad QB.

yeah im really hoping manziel is retaught some mechanics. he went from looking like the most natural thrower in that draft class (imo), to like you said, looking super robotic.

One of the thing that worries me is that Josh looks really good when he isnt getting hit but he takes a couple shots and he is done for the year. We have a great OL but he is still gonna get hit. Last year he was washed up by the time opening day began for the bucks.

That statement you just made reeks shear horror through my soul.

He hasn't, yet, given a single reason for us to NOT be skeptical of him. He most definitely has not gotten his career started the way one would hope for a 1st round selection.

We'll see what he's got soon enough, and it's not like McCown sets the bar to achieve all that high, so we'll know very soon whether or not we need to simply cut bait and move on.

Like I asked before do you stay up at night making this up?

Faulk knew success when he wasn't the main attraction which was the passing game. Tomlinson played for Marty a good part of his career, not exactly air Coryell....

That said by all reports we will run run run and use a lot of swing passes to the backs and you make out we are going to be Air Coryell part 2...

Especially with McCown and JF manning the QB spot... It absolutely slays me the things people will make up and then believe.... Good one mourg

Playing Air Coryell without Dan Fouts would be like making a Disney film with Adolph Hitler. Maybe you could try it .... but it sure won't be very pretty.

Chuck Muncie was the predominant RB during the Air Coryell era. I think that he went over 100 yards only once in San Diego.

He caught numerous passes, but he wasn't a huge running threat. He did score a lot of rushing TDs down close though.

I would suspect that Pettine wants the year to end with more rush attempts than pass attempts, and the passes being a combination of short and quick passes to draw the defense in, and then going over the top to attack when they play up. We aren't going to be an all out air raid type attack though. Pettine has said that he wants to protect and minimize the QB position, and Air Coryell does not do that.

I have not seen the pass patterns, or even really heard reports on what the pass game structures look like, but I would guess that we will be a run heavy WCO type offense ... not a pass heavy offense.

Mickey Mouse seems pretty racist. . .

I concur Y assuming everything works well I think the Browns will take some shots down the field (who doesn't) but the offense is about as far removed from Air Coryell as you can possibly get, which was my point to mourg.

Did you miss Mourg's explanation of the tree from Coryell to Saunders to Flip?

It appears that you stopped at Coryell.

JMO

I apologize for trying to discuss football with you. I should have known better.

As for anyone else that wants to talk football. The Coryell offense is about getting a couple of those receivers deep on pretty much every passing play. The philosophy is to create space behind them for run after catch. The space behind is often why Gordon was able to have space for those super run after catches under Chud and Norv.

A field stretcher like Gabriel and Benjamin can really open things up for the Hartline and Hawkins of the world.

Flip like Saunders likes to mix in that quick WR or RB screen. Atleast that is what he did in college and we have been working on in these practice sessions.

WCO is a lot more about drag routes, and with multiple receivers criss crossing and rubbing for one another. Coryell is about the vertical threat and most of the time reads will go from deep to short where as WCO goes from short to deep.

We are gonna run the ball. We are gonna run the ball a lot and we are gonna throw the ball to our backs as well but this is another variance of the Coryell offense.

I read it, and its always he was in the same building with this guy and he is from this tree and he will do this. Well we aren't going to see air Coryell here, the end.