DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Dumbing Down of America

A recurring Hartford city teacher’s union TV ad goes something like this:

“Let’s focus on learning, not tests.”

Yeah right.

Hey, think how much better the inner-city graduation rates would be if the students didn’t have to take those nasty tests. The teacher’s union would love that. (when negotiating their salary contract)

But not only that. Think how many more doctors we’d have if they didn’t have to take those medical boards. Or lawyers if they didn’t have to pass the bar exams. Or nuclear engineers if all it took was calling yourself a nuclear engineer. “Let’s go build a nuclear power plant today.”

Standardized tests do not measure meaningful learning. Nor are they meaningful measures of assessments, either.

Students learn in a myriad of different ways. Look up research on learning styles, learning modalities, and multiple intelligences.

I could post much more on this. but I'm in the middle of a move.

The teachers will still be evaluated based on adequate yearly progress and that will require some form of standardized test, so the whole, " teacher’s union would love that. (when negotiating their salary contract)" is moot.

Most educators don't like standardized tests because it restricts them to teaching to the test so their district isn't slammed.

Ohio is considering lessening the total hours of testing required. Still heavy standardized measurement, but just not so much of it.

What a reach.. nobody is saying people should never be given a test..

Think of it like the combine... you spend months working on your 40 technique, your long jump technique, running circles around little cones.. and you WOW everybody at the combine in those tests... are you a better football player than the guy who didn't do as good on the tests?

So a teacher, who is engaged with a kid all year and knows the kids work habits and intelligence for the subject matter, gives the kid a test and that is the sole determinant to their grades... some kids don't test well. Some kids take oral tests very well but standardized tests not well, some kids do reports and projects very well but don't write papers well..

Y'know, I read once that the whole colored belt system in martial arts is an American invention... Asians took karate for centuries just to learn and to grow and there was pretige in having the best teachers... but when they brought it back to the United States after WWII, Americans couldn't be bothered with it until they gave them belt tests and different colored belts to show progress... For whatever reason, it's in our nature...

Well someone is responsible for the education of the 10th and 11th graders I had the pleasure of standing next too at the viewing of the Constitution when one kid said, "Hey there it is" and "What is that next to it"? The other kid says "It's the Bill of Rights".

They read it for a while and another kid said he thought the Bill of Rights was the dinner check for the writing of the Constitution! Yea, another one said, yea.

I think what they mean is there has been a shift in the past decade or 2 towards teaching only to what will get them to pass the test. Rather than teaching them the fundamentals, and how to think, study, problem solve and learn.

Because these tests determine so much about what funding a school gets, and is used as a barometer of the teachers success, that the concept of just teaching them what they need to know has been replaced by getting them to memorize what is needed to pass.

It's not that they think that tests are bad. But these standardized tests has bastardized our education system into a one-size-fits all institution of lower learning.

From an Old Man's prospective ; I think the Country as a whole has gone from one of pride and reward for accomplishment to blame and excuses !

I have learned a few things in my life including:

Never, ever argue religion.

And don't mess with teacher's unions.

I'd prefer to read cogent posts on whether you think there is a "Dumbing Down of America"

By the way, Asian Indians - who are notorious for their intense test preperation (we used to call it "studying") - account for a much higher percentage of doctors and engineers in the US.

Which learning modality is that?

You can find cogent responses supporting any side of this issue you'd prefer.

I've been teaching near 20 years without being in the union.

What I know about public school teachers is they're given the responsibility for educating all types of kids. We get some of the ones who cause the most problems where I work. I don't envy somebody trying to focus 20 to 30 kids when 1-5 of them are constant disruptions and there's no accountability for parents. Put yourself in a room of someone elses kids (even good students) and try to teach them anything and you'll get a real good idea of the challenge.

When I was in school my education was MY responsibility and my mom held ME accountable. These days all of that accountability has been placed on educators and if they don't show enough progress they're penalized.

For every story of a teacher sitting in the lounge all year doing nothing there are countless stories of teachers spending their own money. Teachers working more hours than their contracted to work because they care. Teachers working with parents.

If you want to find political input into the state of education then you need to know that the teachers' union does exist in a vacuum. They are there to support each other.
If we want to describe dumbing down then let's broaden our scope beyond testing and teachers.

Sorry if I sound a little grumpy about the whole thing.

I do think standardized testing is beneficial to a certain degree. I don't think it's a problem. Pick up a book, study, do your homework and you can pass the tests. No need to eliminate them all together.

I don't think students are being taught the things they NEED to know while in high school. What do I mean specifically? Most students learn the Pythagorean theorem (spelling?) but never learn how to build a resume, or do their taxes. Who the hell needs to know that? Or how much gas it takes to form a planet.

Realistically I think students need to be taught basic functions of adult-hood while in the latter stages of high school.

-How to build a resume.
-Job interview practicing.
-How to do your taxes.
-How to balance a check book and open a bank account.

Even other basic things, like car buying steps, home buying steps, money saving tips/steps, insurance information, ect. Personally I like the idea of a class for juniors and seniors that educates them on things like call centers, warehouse jobs, office settings. Let them learn about multiple jobs and how to act professional in the workplace. Stuff like that.

You know, things that can help them in the real world...

I certainly wouldn't eliminate standardized testing though.

"Let's focus on learning, not tests"

Well, how can a student PROVE they learned by not being able to pass tests? Seems like common sense to me...

I could see a reward system in place for students with high grades. Like for example, at my high school, if you maintained a 3.5 GPA throughout the year (or better) you were eligible to skip end of the year exams without it hurting your grades.

Not necessarily.. there are still a whole bunch of kids who are doing exceptionally well in school, very bright kids going on to do great things. The opportunity is there.

I do think that the fear of failure isn't what it used to be, the consequences for not doing assigned work, etc isn't what it used to be... it has been made a lot easier to just get by if you are not self-motivated.


I read just this morning an article that said that Asian kids (or it might have just been Indian kids) make up 1/100 of the kids in American K-12 school but they make up 1/5 of the kids who qualified for the national spelling bee.

Same schools, same rules, different level of motivation and focus... not sure exactly what to credit it to, but it should be emulated...

"The Dumbing Down of America"?

It all starts with Republican Politics. Cut spending on anything that does not make the rich richer. If you want students to be robots just plug in common core... If you want kids to develop an realize their true potential then start by spending the money to give them sports, music, art, science, math, health, history, languages, literature, computer labs and supplies without bankrupting the parents. Then hire teachers that can reach students on a personal level, guide and direct their education and be creative in approaches to teaching. Set milestone goals for quarterly testing like old fashion exams but also be creative and flexible in those exams. Allow the teachers, under supervision of the superintendent to create these test themselves.

Last but not least TAKE BIG BUSINESS OUT OF THE SCHOOLS!

I'm also torn on meals in school... I sometimes feels like serving free breakfast and lunches is not the responsibility of the schools. If children are going hungry the schools should report the parents to the local children's services and let them handle that. But a lunch break is necessary, however I question the expense/value of discount meals prepared on site versus bagged lunches.

Of course it does...


The brain child of Janet Napolitano... didn't know she was a republican...


The United States is at, or near the top, in per pupil spending among all developed countries... It's hard for me to buy the argument that our education system is struggling due to lack of funding...

To any DT poster who may be contemplating negative and most likely uninformed commentary regarding teachers: if you have not spent at least an entire school day in a primary classroom and an entire day in a secondary classroom, your opinion is invalid. If you prefer to comment, I would suggest spending time in the classrooms, getting educated about the classrooms of today, asking questions and learning the substance of which you wish to post about. The before and after commentary would be highly enlightening and interesting to say the least.

I know how these threads go. There will be teacher bashing from those who are uninformed or who, many years a go, had a poor experience themselves.

Teachers are not responsible for the inordinately large and frivolous amount of testing that occurs in today's classrooms.

We have folks who have rarely, if ever, spent time in the classroom making educational decisions for our students. This is like a teacher attempting to tell a neurosurgeon how to perform brain surgery, with what tools, in what order as well as what the final outcome should be. Silly, just silly!

Doctors are tested on actual factual knowledge. Lawyers test on the bars using applied knowledge. In many states, teachers do test prior to employment, as they should.

However, when your job performance is tied to the performance of students who are sexually abused, emotionally abused, physically abused, neglected and unbonded, there are going to be blips on the radar. You don't study, nor could you, for human response to such atrocities that exist in today's classrooms.

I could go on and on listing issues of today's students but that is for another thread.

Dumbing down, I don't know. Over exuberantly testing, I thinks so!

Just suggesting, we stop, think and GET INFORMED.

Those free lunches are sometimes the only meal those kids get. You can't teach kids when they are too hungry to learn. It's one of the best programs to ever be made. Not I could complain they don't make healthy enough food but absolutely no reason to stop it. It does more good than welfare since we know the kids actually get to eat from it.

90% of failing students are students from failing parents.

I have never seen such a long list of excuses for a job poorly done.

If my gardener gave me a list of excuses like this for the yard and trees turning brown, I would fire him.

It is everyone's fault except for the person who we pay to do the job?
Anyone with a different opinion is an idiot?

Pfft.

g

When was the last time you spent a day in a classroom either elementary or secondary? Be honest.....it matters.

Nh

I would much rather see the school lunches and breakfasts than the weekend backpack program that provides meals for the students over the weekend. Many parents trade the food for their drugs or take the food from the kids to serve themselves. This is happening and it is why many districts have stopped the program. Sad!

Seriously, you are comparing plants to children and human behavior? Really......really?

Cultural beliefs and accountability. And yes, it should be emulated.

Not a great analogy, but let's go with it.

What if you didn't have one type of tree, what if you had 25 trees from all over the world, but you only let your gardner use one kind of food... and each tree has different nutritional needs, they absorb food differently, they require different amounts of water but you have told your gardener, you have to treat every tree the same.. and make them all grow and flourish.

Then at night, when the gardener goes home, you go out and you take some of the trees and you prune them, give them a little extra water, keep the bugs off of them... but some of the other trees, well that's where you dump the bacon grease and the engine oil when you are done with it, you dump it right at the base of those other trees... but in the end, the gardener is still supposed to make every tree flourish and thrive the same... and if he doesn't, it's all his fault.

I'd hate to be your gardener..

Thank you, Florida. This is 100% spot on. Many of my colleagues and me feel just like this.

Good Gravy, what a bunch of Horse Hockey!

First its the Republicans.

One guy is arrogantly telling us unless we have spent time in a classroom lately, our opinions don't matter!

Next I get a sad tale of how our Society has gotten so bad that the kids are all abused and starving as their parents steal their lunches for drug money!
Well who on this board has taken more heat because he has been YELLING about the lack of Morals and the Breakdown of our Society than me and a few others? Guess what, society, you got what you earned! Reaped what you Sowed!

Then we are told of the need for school breakfast and lunches along with weekend meals for the kids! Its Public School! It was never meant to be a stinking Day Care!

Next I get accused of comparing trees to kids by educators who should be able to comprehend I was comparing people who are not doing the jobs they are PAID to do!

DC, I know the system is a mess just like society, but teachers need to find a way to get the job done anyway. There are successful teachers out there dealing with the same crap and getting it done. Find out what they are doing and force your union to make the changes! You guys have your backs to a wall but you gotta do the best you can to change it! No excuses. As a fellow idiot once said...
GIT ER DONE!!!

That is twice in this thread, that you have insinuated anyone who doesn't share your opinion is an idiot, how do not get banned?

WHAT???
You didn't comprehend now did you.
or did you just misquote me?
Nowhere did I call anyone an idiot except for Myself and Larry the Cable Guy. Pay attention.

I for one think our country's electricity grid could be considered a joke if it weren't such a serious blight on our nation's image and frankly anyone who has worked in that industry shares the blame for ruining this country's chances of economic success.

Have your lights stopped flickering since I retired?
Your welcome.

We spend all of our education budget on the wrong thing. Curriculums, fancy program and what not.

I say we pour all that money into more teachers and higher pay for them all.

I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with what they have to deal with. Especially in the lower income areas.

I also don't think it's fair to hold a teacher completely responsible for the performance of their students given all the factors that go into a students success or failure.

Won't go into them, they've all been mentioned in earlier posts.

Hats off to you underpaid people!

Bb

Oh, I think we comprehend just fine, thank you. It's simply that the analogy was so so ridiculous, it makes no sense. Educators do not produce 4x4 little perfect tool shop parts.

Oh, by the way, you never answered the question. When was the last time you spent a day in a classroom?

Just what I thought. You're way off base and clueless.


Also, no one ever said if you have not been in a classroom recently that your opinions don't matter. I simply stated they were invalid. You have definitely proven that to those of us who know what goes on in America's classrooms.

By the way, if you have been paying attention to the threads, I am not a "guy".

B


A side note, I was a successful teacher getting it done for 32 years. Member of Who's Who Among America's Teacher, Golden Apple Award winner. I will not go on. Just want it said that I am a "git er done" educator with real life classroom experience that I am extremely proud of. So, you can trust what I am telling you, or not. It really only matters to me for the sake of the children. I have been there and done what you are advocating. I currently am one of those consultants.

This topic is one that truely brings out the passion in me. Especially when it is highly obvious that people know nothing about what they are talking about.


Lesson for you: you don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know it!

I'm not afraid to say. IF you have never dealt with inner city kids in a school filled with kids from poverty then just shut your mouth because you're too ignorant to know what your talking about. I'm not saying you're stupid or dumb, just ignorant. Listen to those who are not ignorant and learn.

Regardless of my stands on morality, kids are innocent. They can't control who their parents are. They can't control where they live. They can't really control much of anything. I've been one of those kids and I didn't have a horrible parent, just a crippled one.

Hungry kids CAN'T learn. That is a plain fact backed up with scientific study after study. It also doesn't cost the school very much. The school lunches is penny for penny one of the most efficient programs for improving students ability to learn. Many kids would not even come without it.

While I will preach all day that adults should suffer for their mistakes I firmly believe that children truly belong to our society as a whole because they are our future. It's not ok to forsake them and just lets them shrivel up and be wasted seed just because they have bad parents. As a society we need to heavily invest in our children whether they are ours or our neighbors because they ARE your future neighbors and the future voters.

We can have a field of rotted seeds of we can have fields of amber waves of grain. I prefer grain and school is the biggest part of turning kids into worthwhile neighbors and members of our society.

I would rather spend another billion dollars on education than to spend it on the military any day.

I have read all your words and am now enlightened.
You are paid from my tax dollars to TEACH our children so we do not have a Nation of morons in the future. You are paid to teach, not raise, not feed but teach.

Unfortunately, society has crumbled enough to a point where the children are no longer fit enough to be taught and the burden falls upon the teacher who sees these kids everyday to make them fit for learning.

Guess what, my gardener can not take care of my property AND cook my meals for me AND clean my house! I will end up with a dead lawn and trees if he tries.

You educators can not raise a lost generation of children from a collapsing society and then teach. It is not fair to even ask you to do so. It is not fair to those kids who ARE fit to teach.

So tell me, what is the solution that I may fight for it?
Or have we reached the point where, like on a sinking ship, You save as many as you can?

Excuses are for Wimps. Decisions and Solutions are for Adults!

DC I know common core is not a Republican snafu... Does not make it any better. It is the worst thing to ever happen to education.

And Yes, the GOP's policies are a problem when it comes to funding. When I went to school you didn't have "pay-to-play" for extracurricular activities. Schools had art and health classes (I think I read that many quit offering these).

Our science courses were state of the art for high school... I think they use the same equipment today.

Now if the schools are adequately funded I would like an explanation for these things.

Not to mention that the average high school student (at least the ones I'm exposed to in my life) seems to be much less prepared for life in the real world.

I got distracted and didn't finish my thoughts on meals. I said I was torn, I don't like seeing children go hungry and you have a point in it being better than welfare by knowing the children are getting food. But school lunches are now big business, so how much money actually goes into those lunches and how much to profit the businesses? That's where I have a major issue.

Policies that put what should be local jobs, local foods and local money into the pockets of companies run on greed instead of concerned about our kids.

It may well be. And keep in mind, I'm not defending Republicans, just not sure why they get blamed for our declining education results when it has been declining for decades, in areas where local politicians are from all parties, with national politicians of all parties.. Like No Child Left Behind, I think it had a reasonable objective, which was to bring accountability to schools and teachers... I just don't think it achieved the objective... Just like Common Core, as I understand it was a collaborative effort of educators and industry leaders to put more emphasis on science and math to produce better prospective employees down the road... I honestly am not nearly well versed enough to know where it went wrong, but I'm pretty darn sure it did.


Neither did I.. we also didn't have a 10,000 seat football stadium with field turf, state of the art training facilities, hired full-time coaches, travel equipment, etc. I played soccer, basketball, and baseball in high school, we had one set of uniforms, paid for our own shoes, the coach was a history teacher who made about $200 a year extra for coaching, the only sport that even had an assistant coach was football, our weight room was 1 nautilus machine, the track around our football field ran right through the middle of left field on the baseball field and one of the light poles from the football field was right in the middle of center field.. all of our games were also within about a 30 minute school bus ride... But we all had textbooks..

I do construction management for a living, been involved with a number of K-12 schools over the years, so you know how much it costs to build a high school? Do you have any idea how much of that goes into building athletic facilities? Can't have shared fields anymore, girls can't play softball on the baseball field, have to have their own field.. all lit for night games.. One high school I was involved with recently near Greensboro, NC, the overall construction budget was about $40 million.. almost $8 million of that was to build the outdoor athletic facilities (and that doesn't include the gym with it's motorized retractable bleachers). Meanwhile, there are other schools in the same district that need a new roof, need the AC to work, etc...

I like having sports in high school, but the cost is astronomical.


I'm not versed enough in public school budgets to know... but I can google "where do public schools waste money" and get dozens of articles on school systems wasting money on all kinds of frivolous things. I can find articles which studied different districts that spend different amounts and how the results don't reflect it... My sons high school had about 75% more kids than the high school I went to and 4x the number of administrative staff... We had a principal and a vice principal, they have a principal and 4 vice principals... then they have a Dean... 5 guidance counselors.. an attendance person.. a registrar... 4 admins.... 3 media specialists.. and 25 people listed under "special programs".. a career development coordinator (I thought that was what the guidance counselors did)... a gaming academy coordinator... about 20 other people with titles I don't even understand.... and I didn't even get to the people that actually teach math, english, social studies, languages, PE, art, music, etc. yet. In short, it's run like a government agency...


that has a lot more to do with technology and parenting... as was stated before, it's the schools job to educate.. preparing a kid for "life" should happen more at home.

The core is a fantastic idea! The worst part is how it is being used to design tests...

Our schools might spend more money per kid but for most kids its all they get. Students in places like South Korea spend 10x what we spend on young kids education. I am not exaggerating either. It's how I make my living.

Students wake up and study. Go to school. Immediately after school they will go to Hi Gwan which is a school for after school paid for by parents. After this they go home for private tutoring sessions or they go to some other evening academy. Every single day they are spending hundreds of dollars on extra schooling for their kids. I sometimes charge, as much as, $40 an hour to privately tutor these kids. These kids have multiple tutors every single day. Even the poorest parent is desperate to get extra tutoring for their child.

They are spending WAY more per child because school is just where it starts. In the US the public school is ALL they get and I have seen schools that don't even have enough textbooks for the classrooms. They also have 10-20 more students per teacher too.

Often parents in South Korea will give even the public school teachers gifts of money and I mean HUNDREDS of dollars in gifts to make sure their kid's teacher likes them and goes that extra mile.

In the US parents either don't care or second guess the teacher or harass the teacher to the point many teachers just get fed up and quit. Our politicians have ZERO respect for the teachers and are even more ignorant about what a teacher needs to be able to teach.

This is the reality. Kids in the US are falling drastically behind because the parents just don't care enough while in other developed countries parents are doing every single thing they can to get their kids ahead. It's working for them too.

If we even spent 1/10 on education to improve our people instead of building weapons for our military and made laws where parents would be held accountable for their children's school performance you would start to see dramatic changes for the better. Neglecting your child's education should be criminal IMHO.

As a side note our country spends more money on the interests of our national debt than we do on education...

It needs to be acknowledged when you are willing to at least partially accept an opposing view and I admire that. However, "nation of morons" is pretty far off the mark and I disagree with even the suggestion.

The currently retiring generation of educators have witnessed the major changes in technology and the benefits and draw backs technology provides. Would the majority of students be better off learning all the uses of a calculator or should they be required to memorize math facts? When is a combination of both appropriate for a specific student?

Should they practice hand-writing or keyboarding? Will text language eventually find its way into the Webster dictionary and then accepted as vocabulary?

Should students REALLY learn the dates, locations and military leaders of the Revolutionary and Civil Wars? What events of our history should be covered; Japanese internment, Wounded Knee etc?

Should students know all the parts of a cell structure?

What about the students who spend days at school when they could probably learn valuable trades?

It's not unreasonable to say all of these things can be self taught with disciplined home study, practice and a reliable computer and reliable internet connection.

My guess is eventually teachers will be required to write IEPs for all students, even in the likely event those students who are registered but don't attend the school.

Districts are hiring young graduates in teaching. They learn strategies and techniques for classroom management and relevant learning. Those teachers are probably already behind the times with students who more than likely know how to cut and paste to complete assignments. Fortunately all teachers spend their time and money to stay current with teaching.

Ohio does not have a valid education funding system. Right now funding is partially based on whether your district succeeds or fails. Success equals more funding, failure equals less. That sounds totally ass-backwards to me. Add to that, districts are required to partially fund their budgets by passing levies. Good districts usually have no problem, but struggling districts have celebrations on the rare occurrence their levy passes.

There's always an argument claiming we "throw money" at schools. The real problem is there is no sensible spending plan.

With all the problems districts have with raising and spending money we should focus on guaranteeing it's spent where the dollars are intended to go. Instead of being dependent on the whims of politicians our education system be a separate regulated entity. Not regulated merely to cut spending, but regulated by knowledgeable professionals assigned to guarantee appropriate funding for each district. A lot of states are cutting education funding to score political points. If you believe in old fashioned wisdom then you know what, "a penny saved a dollar spent" means.

Should teachers be held accountable? Absolutely. Should they have the resources and freedom to design valid lesson plans for all students, not just lesson plans indicating which part of a core curriculum they support? Even more absolutely.

Yes, kids should memorize math facts and formulas and they should, when practical, learn to do problems long hand before they learn to just plug the formula into a computer and it spits out an answer. In more complex math/science like Trig, Calc, and Physics, just getting the right answer isn't enough, you have to know what that number means or it's pointless. I don't want an engineer telling me to use a W18x42 beam on a project.. why? Because that's what the computer told me to use... no, I want him/her to fully understand WHY the program specified that particular beam for that particular application.. because believe it or not, computers can be wrong too.


Both, and from a young age.


Yes. Sometimes knowledge, just for the sake of knowledge, is enough. Plus, at the age kids learn those things, part of it is just learning how to study, how to learn.


Sure, I'm not about glossing over the bad just to show the good.


Sure. See answer above about knowledge.


Depends on what age kids we are talking about.


We are talking about kids who can't learn it when they are forced to and get no support at home... why on earth would anybody believe they would have the motivation to teach it to themselves?

I'm adamantly against this notion that younger and younger kids should be given this focused curriculum to prepare them for the "real world" at the exclusion of general knowledge. I'm also adamantly against the notion that kids shouldn't have to memorize anything because with Google you can just look it up.. Kids need to learn, they need to develop an appreciation for the maths, sciences, history, arts, music, etc just for the sake of knowing where we come from and how stuff works. Not to mention, the average 20 year old will change majors in college twice and the average adult will change careers 4 or 5 times, so how would we expect a 14 year old to know what they want to do with their lives? Interests change.. become a well-rounded individual.