DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why Donte Whitner is so optimistic about the Browns

Let US Pray......

I have to say that we have seen QB's here who can make a great OL look bad by holding the ball. You also have QB's like Peyton Manning who can make an average OL look good.

I believe the quickness and accuracy of his decision making will be the key. If he holds onto the ball too long or makes poor decisions, even our OL won't look good on paper.

McCown is Brandon Weeden's father. Does that tell you anything?

Hoping a miracle happens and Johnny finally gets it or it will be another disastrous season, but what's new?

We do not have Tebow. I am optimistic.

Our OL was pretty good in '07 but I think DA got rid of the ball pretty quick as well. That combination allowed him to play all season without having to have his uniform washed.

Thank you Vambo. That truly made me giggle...

any NFL vet is optimistic this time of year no matter what team they play for.
Its human nature.

as far as the Browns go, I see a team that is coming off a 7 win season with a new QB,new OC.
No other team in the AFC North has had as many redo's on offense as the Browns have had in the last 5 years.
No other NFL team has failed so miserbaly at establishing a offensive identity as the Browns have.

Their is really nothing to go gaga over on this offense. Its really lacking end zone threats.
Bowe and Hartline were allowed to walk because their former teams felt they had to upgrade their WR position.
McCown has been nothing more than a backup his career. he is what he is.
now you throw in a 1st time OC coming from a bad offensive team in Oakland.
the resumes of these 4 new arrivals are very unimpressive.
No one in K.C or Miami was sad to see Bowe/Hartline go. Same for McCown.

I see a offense that will run run run. Try to keep McCown's pass attempts under 25 per game.

I think the Browns defense has some nice pieces. But its not good enough to carry the team ala the Seahawks.

I don't see any upgrades in the Browns kick return games. No threat at KOR or PR.
and with a offense thats lacking chain movers and endzone threats field position is paramount.

I hate to say this but you do this every single time with whomever the starter is, its just who you are as a fan. You build a great case for whatever the flavor of the day is for the Browns starter then when their no longer a Browns player let alone starter you label them as sucking.

I said this before and I will say it again I respect no ones opinion on QB's and I include myself. I think McCown will suck based on the fact that he has ALWAYS sucked, but that doesn't make me right. Most QB's have the tools to play at this level but don't have the head for it, McCown falls squarely into that category and has his entire career. Just because he now plays for the Browns doesn't mean he morphs into something he has never been.

Your sales pitch for Mccown is on par with the sales pitch you gave on PF. Sorry to say. I wouldn't say your outright wrong because if you keep backing every move made by the Browns sooner or later you'll be right. Lets hope this is that time. I seriously doubt it but I never say never, to old not to know that anything is possible no matter how unlikely.

Great post. Any one who takes an honest look at this so-called team could not argue with your assessment.

thank you SuperBrown. very appreciated.

what people fail to overlook is that the NFC South defenses weren't exactly dominant.
very finese defenses.
McCown is coming to the AFC North wheres defenses are built on physicality.
yeah McCown had a good 2/3 season with the Bears.
reminds me too much of Derek Anderson. how did he end up?
every game the Browns play the Browns will have the lesser QB on the field and firepower.
Every QB in the last 7-10 years the Browns have started the organization they have reached on in the draft, or over rated in FA.

1/3... 5 games he started.... went 3 win 2 loss with great recievers and running back that averaged 5 yards per carry and caught 27 pass in those 5 games.

I think that there were no QB's to be had this year and we just have to deal with it. I think that if McCown can just play like an avg QB we will easily have an 8-8 season. If he plays good then I think we can make the playoffs.

He played good the last time he was in a decent situation so I think its possible. What I worry about is how his body holds up in the AFC North at his age. I mean he is no spring chicken if you follow me ...

Well from the comments McCown himself made he seems pretty stoked about playing behind that line...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...re-oline-talent

I believe Ray Farmer himself put it as best as it could be put...

''I just think you got to get your hammer and your nails and you got to go out and build a house and that's what it's going to take,'' he said. ''You got to take your time and put it together the right way.''

Full article is here if you want to read it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/browns-gm-r...02805--nfl.html

The point is that they are waaaayyyy more worried about the foundation of the team then they are the QB position ATM. I know that there are going to be a LOT of complaints from various posters alike, but Farmer is looking down the road to continued success not one and done, and for that I am eternally grateful that they have a GM willing to take the heat for doing it how he feels is the "right way". I personally don't want to deal with another 2007-2008 disaster...

Last year, we allowed 21.1 Points per Game.



We have, at least we believe we have, improved the defense a great deal.

We lost Rubin, Sheard, and Skrine. We added Starks and Williams. We have Gilbert returning for year 2, and hopefully with a new attitude. We have Phil Taylor returning to health, along with Mingo.

Through the draft we added a run stuffing NT in Shelton, and an edge pass rusher in Orchard. We added Cooper, who I think is going to be a huge part of our passing situation defense. We aldo added Campbell, who wasn't my favorite pick at the time, but who has grown on me with all that has been reported about him. I let the fluff get to me. We also added Gaines, who was projected to go much higher but for some character concerns. We added Pullard, and who knows what we'll get out of him .... but he does seem like a kid who absolutely loves the game ..... and we added Ekpre-Olomu. If Ekpre-Olomu manages to heal, he could be a massive steal. He does, however, seem unlikely to help his year.

Anyway, this is the net result:

DL: Lost Rubin and added Shelton and Cooper
LB: Lost Sheard and added Orchard and Pullard.
DB: Lost Shrine and added Williams, Gaines, and potentially Ekpre-Olomu.

The defense will be in year 2 of this scheme. We run a very complicated defensive scheme. Everyone has to be in their place, or holes open.(as in most defenses) Last year guys made a lot of mistakes, especially early on. We should be improved in this regard from the word go. We added real legitimate talent to every level of the defense. More importantly, we have added talent that fits Pettine and O'Neill's scheme.

Last year we allowed 21.1 PPG. I think that we could be under 19 PPG this year. That will make life much easier on the offense. (especially an offense that wants to be pass efficient and run heavy)

If our defense is not in the top five in the league I will be very disappointed. That status can be attained by maintaining our pass defense (or even regressing some) and greatly improving our run defense.

My guess is that the heavy focus on the run will cause our pass defense to get a little worse, but making the overall defense better.

Yeah, if someone like Sam Bradford is considered the best option to acquire in terms of QBs, one that would take a lot to get - then yeah. All the evidence you need right there indicating the poor selection/options at QB.

I kind of buy into the "keep McCown clean, and he'll be able to at least operate decently" mindset. With "our" o-line and their ability to open run lanes and pass block, we might have that.

QB's are like pitchers, the talent level is in short supply and if there is anything out there you are going to pay a lot for mediocrity. I'm glad we didn't pay what they were asking for SB. With his injury history he is not worth it.

Why can we be successful?

Geno Smith. Marcus Mariota. Derek Carr.

Those are the first 3 QBs we face.

With our defense, and running game, McCown only has to do a little.. And we could easily.. Start 3-0.. And once you do that, all bets are off on how the team builds from there..

Na Tab its what you HOPE it will be, fact is he has always been a loser.



One thing I have learned thru me life is thinking you can change what has always been more often then not leads right back to the same place with the same result. Sure there is a 1-5% chance McCown will have a career year. But he is who he is in this case he is a loser.

You can't debate the guys career and your trying to get me to debate you on what you hope he will be and not what he has always been. In other words I stand on his record you stand on what you hope. How can I debate football as you say based on what your hopes are? All indicators point to losing with Mccown. Like I said I never say never but McCown is a pretty sure bet to lose.

He doesn't have to have a career year.

Brian Hoyer was having a "career year" last year for the first 10 weeks, and he was barely average..

All wee need from McCown is 3500 yards (200 yards a game) and 20 TDs and less than 10 INTs (Think Brad Johnson in 2002)

I think with the surrounding talent that is totally possible.

mccown sucks. thats a fact. hangs on to the ball forever. makes bad decisions.

Eotab

how did you rank your available QB's in the offseason?
I know you liked Bradford as did others.
I just can't see McCown high on your list

IMO McCown has peaked as a QB.
Tampa Bay over paid and over rated him as a QB.
Much like the Collins kid they signed from the Bengals to play OT.
Tampa's front office has been porous at best recently in judging talent pre new GM.

McCown is a poor mans Brandon Weeden and vice versa
Tall Texan red hair with a strong arm but really stupid in his decision making at times.

McCown is on his 7th NFL team.
that has to be a NFL record.
His QB rating has stayed in the 70's his whole career other than that mirage in Chicago.

He doesn't pass the eye test. plain and simple.

simple as that if you watch his games the last 2 years.

Hope he is due for a better year. If he can make some plays early and not give it away, I think we can get some wins. I don't expect McCown to carry it all. Just hope we can grow into a QB.

This is a chance for Josh to play with the most talent he has ever had around him. Is he great? no but he has a good attitude, wants to win, wants to be here and is willing to work hard and help our other qb's. With all that if he just plays decent we have a shot to be at least in the playoff hunt. One can only hope !!!

For the life of me I don't see how so many fans understand that football is the "ultimate team sport" knowing that it takes every player doing their jobs at a high level to insure success. Everybody knows that.

Then, those same fans will cite stats and use them to blame failure on ONE PLAYER. They seem to forget what they knew, that football is the ultimage TEAM SPORT.

My view on stats is that stats are FACTS. They tell EXACTLY what happened.

However, STATS CAN NEVER TELL US WHY it happened. In other words, stats cannot tell the contribution of the other 10 players to explain HOW those stats were compiled.

If a WR has a "down year", (stats-wise), is it all on him? Did he simply drop most of the good passes coming his way? Did he suddenly start running bad routes contributing to his "down year"? What part did the QB play in the WR stats considering he's the only guy throwing him the ball? What part did the OL play in those WR stats considering it's they're job to pass protect so the QB has time to make a good decision and an accurate throw?

Even the RB contributes to the WR stats. But is he solely responsible if he, himself has a bad game? How much responsibility of his bad game falls on the OL failing to run block making the run game fail causing the play action pass ineffective causing both the QB and the WR stats to go down?

Hell, even the Defense contributes to that WR's stats. How that goes depends on the field position the defense leaves the offense in. In the same way the ST plays a similar part in field position.

Field position can affect the offense greatly and then contribute good or bad toward the whole offense, the QB and that WR.

This can go on and one and on digging into all the variables that make up one WR's stats.

The same variables can be indicative to the stats of any one player. It takes an understanding that 10 other players contributed to every stat. The stats show the facts. The variables show the reason for those facts. To be accurate at all in using stats we have to take into account all the variables involved. That will give us the why.

I don't know much about McCown at all. He's never been on my radar because he's typically been a less than average QB... so say most of the stats. But how much of those below average stats were affected by the other 10 players on offense?

On this board we screamed for a quality OL for years and years because we knew that no QB can be successful behind a bad OL. But the same OL screaming fans blame McCown for the Bucs 1-10 season last year solely on McCown even while knowing they had one of, if not the worst OL in the NFL last season. Still, their bad record is blamed on the QB.

Overall the point is that there is a lot more variables to any stat, including win/loss, to heap all the praise or all the failure on any one player.

McCown has been in the NFL for 12 years, that's 192 games worth. He'd played in 69 games, that's 4.3 games worth.

He's only played two years of double digit games, Tampa last year (11) and in '04 with the Cards (14). He's also had two 9 game seasons and two 8 game seasons. His other six seasons he played in 3 or less games, (only one three game season). In two of his 2 game seasons he had 0 attempts. In one season he did not play, (Bears '12).

The point of posting those facts is to show he's only really played 4.3 seasons worth of games. There's not a lot of history to be garnered from that. I get that 12 years is a long time. If he's punked out for 12 years then that's not too good. It's one thing to say he's played for 12 years, but really, he hasn't. He's played for less than 4.5, half of those as a backup.

My real point in posting those stats is that there is no way one can point to any of his stats and say they accurately describe McCown as a player who's failed for 12 years.

To make another point I'm going to focus on only the 2013 season with the Bears. Everybody knows by rote that his W/L record was 3-2. But he actually played in 8 games in '13.

His QB ratings were as follows:

vs. Wash 119.6
vs. GB 90.7
vs. Det 123.4
vs. Bal 92.9
vs. Stl 102.4
vs. Min 114.9
vs. Dal 141.9
vs. Phi* 64.6

*Threw 4 passes in week 16, his last game.

Ok, so using the viewpoint I established earlier that no stats can be attributed on one player, meaning McCown was not solely responsible for his QB Ratings one must compare the variables of the Chicago '13 season, (who McCown played with) vs. our '15 season, (who he will play with in '15) Only then can we get a grip on how much the supporting cast contributed to his ratings.

I will add this observation, according to those QB ratings he seemed to be consistent. (So then must have everyone else been)

I'll leave that to whomever wants to look all that up. I briefly started doing it but became weary with it. Partly because of the numbers but also the '13 season is in the books whereas the '15 season is mostly hypothetical stuff mixed in with what we know as facts about our current roster.

Nonetheless, it does appear that for the first time in his career, in 2013, McCown was afforded a good OL, a good RB and two very good WRs and worked within that environment to a high degree of personal success.

It makes me think that if we can offer him a good OL a good running game and a couple of good WRs then he can do very well here. Now, can we do that?

Because McCown doesn't seem to be the problem that his overall win/loss record would indicate.

JMO - but I liked that post.

Here's something to think about. I'm more optimistic coming into this season than I was last season. I think we are better in just about every position now than a year ago besides maybe TE. QB remains to be seen. Hoyer out McCown in. Doesn't move the meter much either way. Last year we went 7-9. Does that mean we should expect better? Or did we overachieve last season? If we stay healthy I could see us winning anywhere between 6 to 9 games. If we have another year of several key starters going on I.R. we could be picking top 5 again. Question is do we have a solid team? Not talking about talent alone. I'm talking about comraderie(sp?). Have we really brought in people who love the game like we keep reading about? Have the vets gotten the younger guys to buy in and put in the work necessary to become solid players? Is Pettine a great HC who can transform the culture here or was last year just an abnormal glimmer of hope? I still believe we need a lot more talent at the skilled positions on offense to do anything big, but if the optimism and positive reports pan out we could make a push for a winning season maybe even a wild card spot at very best. JMHO.

Good post ddubia!! That was what I was trying to say with my post but you had the stats to back it up.

j/c:

I am not going to argue about this, but I pretty much completely disagree w/the majority on this thread.

McCown holds the ball way too long. He is not as accurate as some are saying. He tends to throw flat passes that are either batted or picked. He is a career journeyman who was out of football for awhile.

People keep bringing up our Oline and that is a good point. However:

--he played w/Forte, Marshall, Jeffries, and Lewis in Chicago. We can't even sniff that talent.

--he had two big time receivers in Tampa Bay that make our guys look putrid.

It's the usual spin for this time of the year. You guys tell all of us who have doubts how dumb we are and convince each other that all is good.

It ain't good. Our offensive talent at the skilled positions is horrible.

We had a chance to draft Teddy. We blew it. Heck, we could have also had Carr or Jimmy G. All three are far ahead of Johnny, yet there are some people praising Farmer for building it the "right way."

what you do? get ban every other day or what?

Go root for Minnesota.

We don't have TB, Carr, or Jimmy.

They are not on our team. Period. End of story.

But what if they were. . .