DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why Donte Whitner is so optimistic about the Browns

then we could have a discussion about them?


what if peyton manning was on our team? hes not. so why discuss it?

Why discuss it?

Because the FO passed on those guys. They did not pass on Manning. That was Heckert.

How can you even ask such a question? When our FO is so stupid by drafting JM over Teddy...........than it is reason for alarm.

It's relevant.

Whether or not some of you want it be relevant or not.......doesn't matter.............It is relevant!

lets rehash every good player drafted after we selected someone lesser, then.....

Are you talking about drafts in the 60's, 70's, 80's, etc?

I am talking about the current regime?

Are you telling me we should NOT evaluate their drafts?

Oh, btw............I responded in part because someone was praising Farmer for building "the team the right way."

How can you allow that comment to go untouched w/out even considering us passing on guys like Teddy?

we picked someone who is a lesser pick than teddy. every team does that every draft. it sucks, but so what? like i said, this happens for EVERY single team on draft day.


we might as well wait and see how the dude actually pans out... we've seen less than 2 games from him. criticize the front office all you want, there isnt a front office in the league who evaluates a guy on 2 games...

Can you change the past drafts? Can I?

No.

You think we should have drafted Bridgewater. Trust me, we all know that you think we should have. We didn't draft him.

Exactly what would we get out of discussing it?

I wonder why some of you have such a problem w/discussing football matters on a message board?

Isn't that what a message board is for.

Oh.............and arch. We are done. You stalk me. You antagonize me. You start crap. I respond after numerous attacks and then you either suspend me in your refs position or report me to a ref. I will not respond to you again.

I believe the boys missed you, Vers. You do have a knack for bringing emotions to the fore...

If we had any one of those 3 mentioned qb's we would be talking about a team that was a very serious playoff contender.

That's way premature and romantacizing a concept for effect.

Year 2 for Teddy remains to be seen.

Carr's team had double digit losses last year.

Garrapolo has not taken a snap.

How does any of that equal playoff contender?

It doesn't.....yet!

I keep reading that our skill players are horrible.

Is Dwayne Bowe, Brian Hartline, Andrew Hawkins and Taylor Gabriel REALLY that bad? I mean, the group looks better than the group we had heading into 2014....hell even 2013 when it was Gordon, Little and Bess.

Nothing will ever be worse than the group we had in 2009, 2010 and 2011 with Greg Little, Chansi Stuckey, Brian Robiskie, Mohammad Massaqoui and Josh Cribbs.

With a strong running game, and the addition of Rob Housler and Duke Johnson, our skill players could actually be above average.

It could be A LOT worse....

I agree. I don't think we have an elite group, I mean obviously, but we could have "more than enough to get accomplished what we need", it's heavily predicated on Qb play.

I think keeping Hawk in the slot will increase his production. Hartline is going to have his catches and be beyond reliable. Bowe I believe will be rotated often and will be our endzone nightmare due to his size and ability to get up and contend for catches. I think we'll be okay, I was hoping for a better WR in the draft, but I'm okay with our current group. Dray and Barnidge, we know what we have in them and the other non blocking TE could be someone we can also stretch the field with.

Lc

.arch...we get closer to the truth by continuing to talk about the past.

Face it, if we the fans simply choke down the franchise angle on each move that the Browns make we would be some of dumbest fans in the NFL.

As the years of losing have turned into decades, I find myself questioning each new regime more. Last season, without a track record to judge our management on, Farmer got a pass most of the season. But, as the season was in the last few weeks, it became much more obvious how badly Farmer missed on his first round picks in his first draft.

Manziel is nothing more than a "project" and the db looks to be backup material. Farmers ability to judge talent is a subject that should be judged by our fans...over and over.

I have serious concerns about Farmer's ability to judge offensive talent at the skilled positions...that is a subject that needs to be discussed.

Exactly.

Before you start a crusade to run another regime out of town, think about the past and think about the difference between the Browns and the winning franchises. What have the Browns done differently than those franchises over the last 15 years?

I could be a bit overzealous with that statement but I would have a more optimistic view with any of those guys on our roster. The reality is we don't so we have to go with what we have and hope for the best. I still think we may be a little better off with JM than BH if nothing more than he has more experience.

I actually think Ray Farmer thus far has been really solid.

Excluding Justin Gilbert and Johnny Manziel we had a handful of rookies contribute in some way or another last year...

-Isaiah Crowell
-Terrance West
-Taylor Gabriel
-Joel Bitonio
-Chris Kirksey
-Pierre Desir (Looked OKAY the last three games of the season).
-K'Waun Williams

Then I guess you can also count Connor Shaw. That's 8 rookies that Ray Farmer helped us find last year. Justin Gilbert may have been a bone head off the field but he did slowly get better towards the end of last season...

He drafted 5 players that were in virtually every draft rankings top 100 this year. (Shelton, Erving, Cooper, Johnson and Orchard).

So we'll see.

We're not exactly in an ideal situation at QB right now, that's pretty damn obvious. I sincerely believe that Jimmy Haslam had a ton of weight in the drafting of Johnny Manziel last year. From what I remember, Ray Farmer was a Derek Carr fan....

Haslam meddling in draft process.

Derek Carr workout with Cleveland goes well

Haslam forces Manziel pick?

Haslam orders Manziel pick after text message.

The point of these links.

Ray Farmer might be off the hook for the Manziel pick.

I think the fans and organization needs to give the guy some time. This roster right now (excluding two or three positions) has the most talent and depth it's had since returning in 1999.

Agreed 100% MR. Kelso!! Good post!!

and lets be real here, you cant really judge a GM on 1 draft where the players played for 1 whole season, and some barely at all.


look at RGIII for example. year 1 doesnt mean thats how the rest of a players career will go.

[color:#FFFFCC] For the record, Farmer has had two drafts and FOUR first round draft picks ..and the Browns are still trying to find a franchise QB.

If Farmer didn't choose Manziel a little honesty from the individual responsible might be appropriate at some point. So far, this franchise and our GM made it clear to the media that Haslm DID NOT meddle into the draft process to pick Manziel.

...so which version of events should the fans believe?

Until someone else steps forward to set the record straight..Manziel is Farmers pick.

[ /color]

j/c

I do find some things amusing. Now Farmer was a rookie GM last year. That's true and hopefully he'll learn from his mistakes. But let's be honest in what we have so far.

Sure he hit on "lesser talent" in the draft last year. Players who can contribute, but not any real studs. Thus far it appears he TOTALLY whiffed on his two first round picks while passing on much better talent in the first. Evaluating the QB position was missed by a mile. ( for those who don't like hearing names, maybe this sounds better to you? )

Then we have text gate so our GM is suspended for the first four games. Now it takes a helluva lot of spin to make this sound positive. NONE of that is positive and only lame excuses can make it sound any better. I knew there may be a learning curve for a first year GM, but that first year was crazy!

Now I do like this years first round picks better. I hope that trend continues. But to pretend we should simply forget what happened in last years draft or not use it as a gauge in evaluating this regime is simply denial. When evaluating a regime you look at their entire body of work. That would include the 2014 draft like it or not.

Not every thread and every post is meant to evaluate a regime. When all certain posters do is bring the same stuff up over and over again, in every thread, in every post, it gets tiring. They certainly seem like they are getting their pitchforks ready. That's when my ears perk up. Because that shows that all the complainers just don't get it. They don't understand the real problem that has plagued the Browns over the last 15 years. And it has nothing to do with blown first round draft picks.

Why don't one of the main complainers start a thread where all the complainers can go and complain to and with each other? The rest of us can steer clear of that thread.

My favorite part though is when the whiners and moaners disguise their complaining under the "you have to talk about the failed past in order to talk about the future!" umbrella. It's just a conduit for the complaining but trying to sound civil and intelligent about it.

I think some people may actually jump off a bridge if Teddy has a really good year.

For the complete record, the Browns have had 17 drafts, TWENTY first round draft picks.....and the Browns are still trying to find a franchise QB.

Ray Farmer liked Derek Carr in 2014 but Jimmy Haslam stepped on his toes and made the franchise select Johnny Manziel.

We owned the #12 and #19 picks in 2015 but their weren't any sure fire franchise QB's worth making a big play for. Jameis Winston has big maturity question marks, and Mariota was/is a project and product of a gimmicky spread offense.

How is that Farmers fault?

I don't like our situation at QB, but I'm glad we didn't trade the farm to move up for one of those QB's...

did you like the justin gilbert pick last year? i did. i thought we would have two awesome starting CBs for years to come. didnt exactly turn out that way, atleast not yet.

my problem here is you cite this years draft as better than last years. but they havent even made it to training camp yet... the same way last year i was happy about the gilbert pick, youre happy about this years picks.


it all just seems a bit premature. i guess this is a discussion forum, but i just think the evaluation of a GMs draft should have atleast 2 years to see how the players actually pan out..

Obviously you missed some of the important parts of my post. not surprised though.

Of course he did a good job in adding talent. We did get additions to the team that I like. But people can't simply ignore the fact that the 1st round of the draft is where you draft your "premiere players". That's where your "franchise type players" are on the board.

Guys like Thomas, Mack, Haden and your top of the line players are available. There was certainly some good from Farmer to go along with the bad. But I would think you have to admit the three players I named are our best and were all first round selections. That's where your biggest difference makers are supposed to come from.

My main point of emphasis if I didn't make it clear, is some simply wish to point out the good while negating the bad as if it didn't happen. But it did happen. The glass is not full. Now you can say it's half empty or half full, which ever suits you. But for some to act like the glass is full without looking at the entire picture I believe to be laughable.

I'm not a Farmer apologist nor am sold on the guy. There are positives, and yes tab, even negatives. It's early in the game for him. He only has one season as an NFL GM under his belt. This is season 2 for him. I stated that I liked this draft better. The jury is still out on farmer. He could go on to be a great GM or flop badly. Only time will tell.

But to only point out his successes and fail to own up to his negatives is a one sided coin.

Both of last years first round selections, where franchises are made and broken, along with text gate are a part of his resume. Whether you like that or not.

No, I didn't like either of last years 1st round picks. I wasn't sold that Gilbert was even the best CB in the draft last year let alone the best pick at the time.



All I'm basing my opinion on is how I felt about our picks at the time of the draft. At the end of the 1st round last year I was saying things that couldn't be posted on this board. This year after the 1st round I was saying, "I like it". Now whether that pans out or not is certainly left to be seen.




I really don't disagree with you. All I believe we can discuss to this point however is the here and now. So far there has been zero indications that either of last years first round draft picks even "get it", much less will be on the level of a Haden, Mack or Thomas level of player. I would love to see that change, but I've certainly seen zero, and I mean zero evidence to "feel it".

And if he doesnt, it will be because of Adrian Pederson.. or the Coaching.. or something else..

Any player we didnt draft thats good, is because we suck.

Any player we didnt draft that isnt good, could of been good, but we still suck for not draft in them..

Learning from the past is a good thing.

How, exactly, does saying "we could've had......" help us today? How does constantly saying "if only we would have done X 2 drafts ago" help us today?

Lamenting the past does not help today, or the future. Does it?

The 1st round last year was disappointing. I think 99 out of 100 Browns fans will agree with that.

With that said though, Justin Gilbert did slowly get better as the season progressed. (even though he was a bone head off the field apparently). Transitioning from college defensive back to NFL defensive back is one of the tougher changes to make. It would be extremely premature to say that Gilbert is a bust. (in my own opinion).

Johnny Manziel. Holding off judgement until I see him play in the preseason, but last year was a massive disappointment, as well as all of the off-field issues with the kid.

Despite those two.

I would say the regime exceeded expectations last year.

Ray Farmer found the team 8 rookies that contributed, 9 if you want to count Justin Gilbert. The team also went 7-9, while losing 4 games by 4-points or less.

Had Jimmy Haslam not meddled in the draft and stepped on Ray Farmers toes, I think Derek Carr would be a Cleveland Brown right now.

I'm with you eotab.

Excluding our currently QB situation (which I really don't see as Farmers fault) our team all around is looking the strongest it has in YEARS.

Problem being, I NEVER said they failed. I said the glass is half full or half empty. That Farmer could go either way and be great or be a flop. I said he added a lot of talent.

What I said is that last years first round and text gate are a part of the resume'. That not all is as rosy as some try to make it sound.

For some reason you seem to think it's all or nothing with Farmer. To me there's a middle ground. A place that shows both sides of the coin, good and bad.

That's where I am with all of this. He's done some good and done some bad. The part you claim where you "think" I said he failed is simply because you don't believe there's people who can have some middle ground. I don't deny the good he did just like I don't excuse the bad he did.

I don't discount your take Tab, no matter how unlikely it is.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is how will teams defend the Browns? I know this if McCown is the QB I run blitz like a mad man. As Sam used to say make him think its New Years Day in times square.


It's very likely that if the run game isn't working that McCown will find himself in unfavorable down and distances what happens then? With McCown at QB defenses will be pinning their ears back he has to be able to beat pressure because thats the book on him. The O Line can mitigate some of the pressure to be sure they can but its going to come and McCown has to deal with it and so far over the course of his career when faced with pressure he has held the ball or coughed it up. One of the surprising things is for me anyway is that he has nearly as many career fumbles as he does Ints.

Whats really strange to, is the book on him coming out of college looks the same now as it did then.....

It doesn't period. It's an agenda driven piece of nonsense. Someone with an ax to grind making purely speculative statements as facts. Something I think the poster has gone into tirades over with other posters doing much less.

I'd MUCH rather have Teddy, Carr or Jimmy G .... I didn't want JFF. But I want to move on with seeing how this team does. I'll judge Farmer's performance on all his draft picks and signings - not focus on one pick. Heck I think many of the haters stated that JFF was #2 on their boards - so siting JG and Carr is asinine. But then what do we expect???

I never thought I would say this but looking at our ABYSMAL quarterbacks, Teddy B. is looking pretty good right now. Geez.

I don't know where you came from with that.. All I was saying is none of those three have proven enough to say that we'd be playoff bound with any of them

At least not yet..

You can't possibly say "EVER"

Just for information here: I am not a ref. You know the head dawg here - ask him. He'll be honest. I'm not a ref. I am also almost 100% certain I've not reported you to any ref. You seem to manage to get yourself in trouble.

I don't antagonize you - you get antagonized.

I don't stalk you.

Again, I want you, and everyone else to know, I am not now nor have I ever been a ref, on this board, or any other board. Ever, at any time.