DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued x2

As long as JM is a QB with the Browns, odds are about 99.9%, Browns fans will discuss subjects that relate to him.

Those who don't want to discuss the subjects that relate to Manziel can bypass the discussion...but everyone is welcome to join in...

Funny, we'll actually someday acquire a legit starting QB and we likely won't have as many discussion threads as the failed JF has gotten.

Quote:
It is beginning to look like the decision to draft Manziel is going to cost the franchise at least two seasons and maybe longer.


Double that and then I agree.

You left out the loss of key players that won't stay because of the hopelessness surrounding the QB spot and the losing that comes about as its result.

There were serious missteps that were made in how we have handled the QB spot from the FO and from the coaching staff. Its pretty clear to this poster that the powers that be have all but admitted their mistakes in how they handled the position last year. It may not be stated but they are handling the spot entirely different then they did a year ago.

That's not a bad thing either. It means they learned from their mistakes. Last year it was all about competition this year its about supporting the starter fully and preparing him to play. Last season they were trying to desperately unseat the starter all season long and it reached its climax with texting.

But they set the team back last season by their lack of support, this year that has changed for the better I believe although their bridge to nowhere QB makes us the laughing stock of the league. Still I applaud the change in approach.

It's important to state that it doesn't mean Johnny has no shot to start, what it means is he has to show he is better, and he will get that chance in preseason and through practice. Its a far better approach then the one taken a year ago. Earn it is always better.
H
But the team will continue to suffer well into the future because of the missteps they have been made. It will hurt us in ways we may not immediately recognize as hurting us. For instance trying to attracted a top FA prospect for the TE or WR position is a tough sell in Cleveland and will be for some time to come. Parker one of the top WR prospects let it be known before the draft he didn't want anything to do with Cleveland, and it has nothing to do with the team and everything to do with the QB position. There will be many more stories to go with this one before we hopefully find the answer.

I think we are 3 years away if we can find our guy in next years draft. Meanwhile the assembled talent will watse away.


Honestly, some seem to dismiss the years lost when a GM/owner, who lack the knowledge to judge draft talent, MISS on drafting a franchise QB.

IF Manziel does not progress this season to the point where he takes the starting job away from McCown, that will be two years invested with little return.

...Then what do the Browns do?
...Do the Browns draft another franchise QB in the 2016 Draft?

I think Manziel will be ok.

thats not breaking down stats. just being a Fan of my squad.

You want to respond to my post on the other thread?

JM discussion is fine. I think what people question is any possible relevance of mentioning Teddy Bridgewater. He's not a Brown. Just like we didn't draft Brady, or Rogers etc ... As I said in my other post - did you expect perfection out of our rookie GM last year? And if not - then with the 22nd pick overall - history shows that GMs miss about 20-25% of the time ... If JM is a bust - so what? We going to cry about it forever? Or can we move on and look to the future with the team and players we do have?

Does anyone think he still has a realistic chance at winning the job during camp and the preseason? Or is it pretty much a forgone conclusion that McCown is the guy until he sucks enough to get benched?

is the Gm that passed on those other QBs our GM now? if he was it would be relevant.

You crack me up! When you evaluate any FO, both their hits and misses are a part of it. Whether you like that or not. No one single position impacts a team more than their QB. That's just the way it is.

The FO in charge of the draft when Brady, Rogers, etc.... were drafted, aren't here now. The FO who saw a study this team paid 100k to have done that said Bridgewater should be the pick, then ignored that, are here.

I doubt too many people give a crap that you're sick of hearing it. Now I have no problem giving Farmer kudos for all of the picks he did well on. I have no problem saying he's helped gather talent. Farmer has done some very good things.

But all is not rosy in River City. There are two sides of the coin. People seem to wish for everything to be black or white, when it's not that simple. There are shades of gray in between and people are going to talk about it.

We haven't been able to land a franchise QB since our return in 1999. It the biggest focus on the team and from the fan base. It's going to be discussed. And that includes when the GM misses on a pick.

Referencing a Teddy Bridgewater comparison is more than justified in my opinion. That draft was just last year and we selected Manziel instead of Bridgewater, who was also available. I think (although there was discussion about it at the time) it's weight may not have been that much on Rogers or Rothlisberger because we did not select another QB over either of them. We selected a completely different position player.

Now, there is a lot of rumors and information regarding who made the selection or how it went down, but generally speaking, the selection of Johnny Manziel ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE compared to Bridgewater. We chose one player over another at the same position just a few picks ahead. They're inevitably tied together, much like Manning/Leaf, Luck/Griffen, etc. Yes their slots a bit lower and not the same hype perhaps but selected relatively close to one another.

It appears from most of the articles I have read in the last few weeks, McCown will be the starter and it seems as though the Browns organization feel he is at this point the safest option we have. As for Manziel I am pretty quick to judge, how many chances does any NFL team give a player for any issue? I personally would have got rid of JM to rid the team of whatever personal issues he brings to the organization! With that said we also have the Josh Gordon issue, at what point is it time to say enough is enough? Fact of the matter is we pretty much all agree we need a franchise QB, that doesn't appear to be in the cards for this year. So as a longtime Browns fan I am hoping for anything that resembles a capable QB to at least make this seasons games tolerable to watch.

How so? At this point it looks like the GM made a mistake. As I said - were you expecting perfection? If not - he made a mistake. So what? He made a mistake with txtgate. He may have made a mistake with Gilbert. . . . the rest of his portfolio with the Browns is pretty good to great depending on your view.

He made a mistake... do we need to bring it up once a day? Once a week? Once a month? Once an hour? To what point?

We win the Super Bowl 2 years from now, with a different QB, and I guarantee that someone will still bring up that Farmer drafted Manziel.

You hear a lot about people wanting continuity, if you want continuity, then you have to put up with some mistakes, some growing pains.. Or we can just keep firing people in hopes that we find one that doesn't make any mistakes...

Farmer's overall body of work, I think is solidly on the + side... however, his long-term future, will depend, in large part, on his ability to find a QB. I hope he gets at least a couple more years to try.

No-one is saying not to talk about it because they want to act like it didn't happen. No-one is saying everything is rosey ...

In fact (just in case you were asleep the last 14 months) this discussion has been beaten like a dead horse. . . . I understand the frustration, I get that it raises concerns about the GM.

But it's not a discussion anymore. Every angle and facet of the argument has been examined and cross examined back and forth for 14 months. It is now is like a weapon - it's regurgitated to try and derail a constructive discussion in every post. There are a handful of posters who use it as a punch line without adding anything to the debate. It's pretty mindless.

The latest argument seems to be "if you don't like to talk about it ignore the posts" - and if you dare question the validity of these punch lines you're obviously a very poor human being. You couldn't make this schtick up if you tried and if it was on TV it'd be funny.

As I said to Pblack ... what is the purpose of constantly revisiting this?

- Does it get worse or better with every posting about it?
- Has anyone come up with a new angle or viewpoint since the end of last season or the beginning of OTA's?
- Can we change history?
- Does fixating on one pick represent the job Farmer has done?

Wouldn't it make more sense to monitor how the whole team does and judge Farmer on everything? Free Agents? All the picks? Txtgate, contracts, resignings etc ??? It sure as heck does to me.

Agree DC . . . and unless there is a miracle on the horizon he didn't find the solution at QB in his first two drafts. It's a concern but not something that should tower over every single discussion.

Or that he turned his back on Hoyer.

Or both.

If we every win a SB nobody will give two hoots here. We'll all probably be dead of heart attacks or old age..

This may seem to be blind faith but I trust Pettine and in all honesty, I have doubts Manziel would have been drafted or even kept if Pettine didn't believe he had the ability to be the starter..

In the end, will that be enough? I have no idea. The mere fact he's still here means that some folks in the FO or Coaching staff believe he can be "THE GUY"

One thing that goes against my thinking is that if you look back over time, I don't remember any team that took anyone in the first round and dumped them after one season.. No matter the circumstances... Not even Art Schlecter.

Those pesky 1st round busts still almost always get more than one bite at the apple with the team that drafts them... Then they go on to at least one other team before their career is pronounced dead..

Mac I remember at times screaming at the TV when Kosar would do something bad In a series, Or question OMG why would Bernie have thrown that pass? But I had faith and he was our QB good or bad. We haven't had that here in a long time and yes I bought into the whole Johnny football thing also. Its just very hard to stay invested mentally into a player that never seemed after he got drafted to care about being the player he was hyped up to be. As with Gordon and the whole I apologize to all of the fans blah,blah,blah, Apologies work once, this is the third go around at some point in time you just have to cut your losses and move in a different direction.

The only time this stuff should come up is when discussing one of two topics: a) evaluate Farmer's performance or b) should Farmer be retained or fired.

If people want to discuss it under either of those two topics, it's fair game. Maybe someone should start those threads.

The problem is it is always coming up out of context. Why does it need to be rehashed with every mention of Farmer?

It's silly.

DC had the best take on it. Wish I would have copied that post.

And there's a couple of other things people are forgetting: a) Bridgewater was not and is still not a slam dunk prospect...this is nothing like Manning/Leaf and b) no one knows how Bridgewater would have performed here. There seems to be this assumption that he would have been great here no matter what. Considering he isn't a Manning or a Luck, that isn't necessarily true.

general reply:
It has been said by many around the NFL that it takes 2 years to develop a spread QB. Personally, I would have started Johnny from day 1 and given him on the job training. I thought we would push him to be the starter this year and only brought in token competition so it is a bit surprising to hear the McCown is our guy and no pressure on Johnny stuff but I do expect that to change.

All fair points.

I agree the book is not written on both Manziel and Bridgewater but think they will be judged all the way until it is.

You can't start a rookie QB from day one if he's not ready. That sends a really bad message to the veterans on the team. I fully support Pettines competition philosophy.

Picture it this way I guess.

You have VETERAN QB and you have JOHNNY MANZIEL.

Let's say you're Joe Thomas.

You're in the meetings, film room studies, on the practice field and in the huddles.

In your mind the VETERAN QB is clearly the man for the job, he's smarter, more polished and gives the entire team a better shot at winning.

Pettine starts JOHNNY MANZIEL anyway, just to play him and see what he has, ignoring the fact(s) that he was beat out in the film rooms and on the practice field by the VETERAN QB.

You can't start a rookie QB just to play him. On a team full of talented veterans like we have, you ALWAYS have to consider the locker room and go with the guy who gives the team a better shot at winning.

I REALLY want Manziel to win the starting job this season. I want him to make strides and take some big steps towards being a legit NFL quarterback.

I don't want the job just handed to him though...

Kid needs to earn it.

I have to laugh at the Farmer discussions that state that you have to judge him on his choice of Manzeil along with everything else, and then those same postrs continue to bash him over the Manzeil pick and not even mention the other picks he hit on. It is hypocrisy at it's finest.

And above I mentioned good and bad.

I don't think I mentioned you personally did I?

Many mention his hits, but still speak as if he completely failed.

I believe if people feel he completely failed, people would be asking for his job. I haven't seen anyone on this board do that. That's why when I hear things like you posted, I say many people believe it's either black or white. It's just not.

He was a first year, rookie NFL GM. Considering that, overall I think he did a pretty good job. However, if you look at pro bowl players, a higher percentage of them come from round 1 than any other round in the draft. The first round gives you the best odds of securing your best players.

So I do believe it's natural for people to focus on that somewhat. I believe it's unrealistic for some posters to think the QB position and the first round of the draft won't be an ongoing discussion.

When I hear people call for Farmers job, I'll believe they think his body of work is poor. Until then, I simply believe they are pointing out what they see as weaknesses.

Since 1999, no FO we've had has been able to draft a franchise QB. Until we find a solution to that issue, you'll be hearing about it. And until we find a solution to that, this team will not have any real or long term success.

We could have had Donovan McNabb in 1999. Instead, it was reported that we were torn between Couch and Akili Smith.

Aren't the Browns moving on from Johnny Manziel?...

Only if we're smart...

I thought you had me on ignore?

Look man, you try and deceive people on almost every post you make. That's fine. Go ahead, but you can't stop us from discussing what we want to discuss.

You don't think the topic is worthy of talking about? Ignore it. You can mock that opinion, but it is what it is.

Here is what I think. You don't like hearing anything negative about Farmer, therefore, you mock anyone who dares questions Farmer's moves. You preach that certain topics aren't worthy of discussing. IT'S A FREAKING MESSAGE BOARD. THAT IS WHAT WE DO. WE DISCUSS. I could care less what you like. I ain't stopping the debate. You can belittle, insult, degrade, dismiss all you like, but until the QB conversation is solved, it is worthy of debate in my mind and I could give a rat's butt if you don't like it.

You bring up guys like Brady. What? That regime is long gone. Farmer is STILL here. It is relevant. His comments before the draft made me worry and I mentioned it time after time BEFORE the draft. He doesn't seem to get QBs. He had zero experience in the NFL draft before he came here. He scouted professional players in KC. Damn right I am concerned. If you don't think it is worthy, don't freaking respond, but one thing is for sure, pal........you ain't intimidating me w/your mob mentality about what we can and can not talk about.

Ignore that!

Like Gilbert, West, and DeSir?

JOHNNY FOOTBALL!!!!! #JFF

Kyle Shanahan Describes All the Quarterbacks He's Worked With, Including QB Johnny Manziel

"Johnny was similar to Robert Griffin III -- different type of athlete, but in terms of where he came from. He came from a college that was very Oregon-like; not as much with zone read, but a lot of quarterback runs, spread-out system and not a lot of pocket play. We had to try and think of things that Johnny could do to make plays, but you've also got to teach him how to play quarterback. There's a fine line. But it was a challenge, just like Robert, just in terms of you've got to let those guys be them. They won Heismans being them. You don't want them coming to the NFL and you saying, 'Hey, you can't be you anymore.' So you've got to try and think of a system that allows them to be them, but still teaches them what they need to do to be successful.

The difference with Johnny was, Johnny was quick. He didn't have the speed Robert (Griffin) had, but Johnny could break people off. And that's what his strongest asset was. I never had a guy who could make people miss like that. And the hardest thing, when you make people miss though, you get hit a lot because you're not going to the sideline. You're in between the tackles. That was the challenge with him. Johnny was going to be less designed runs but more scrambles."

Shanahan also provided some input on QB Brian Hoyer, who is now contending for the Houston Texans' starting quarterback job:

"Hoyer was very similar to Schaub. He was experienced; great touch and went through his progressions. He was new in the offense. I think if we would have stayed together longer, I think he could have gotten better at it. But Hoyer's a very solid quarterback who I think we'll have a good chance to play at Houston this year."

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/6/8/87...hes-worked-with

NRTU

Writing Manziel off at this point would be a mistake. We don't know what he is, what he's capable of, or where his head's at. He could be a huge bust, have unlimited upside or fall somewhere in between. All we know at this point is that, according to reports, he's focused and doing his job, and that so far he is slated as our backup.

Logically, you don't slate him as your backup if you don't see some type of promise because if you did that and McCown goes down, (which is highly likely at some point,) you're SOL. It would seem by all appearances that the FO and coaches believe he will at least be serviceable in that role with the potential to grow, or they go out and grab Michael Vick or someone.

Also, they must believe that he can not only grow beyond his previous immature acts, but that he can grow beyond his limited abilities as a college QB. They must feel that he has the ability to develop into an effective NFL QB or they would likely not be wasting time on him, first round pick or not. Farmer has shown the willingness to cut the cord on anyone unable to further the teams goals, I see no reason to think Manziel would be the exception to that, especially in a critical role like backup (for now) QB.

I wasn't crazy about the pick to begin with, only hopeful that he would work out, developing into a mobile NFL QB with the ability to make plays with his arm and his feet. At this point, I remain hopeful, seeing no reason not to since he remains with the team. The moment he proves that he is not capable, (if that indeed turns out to be the case,) I would expect him to be gone. I don't believe there is any middle ground with this, regardless of where he was drafted. The position is just too damn important to the success of the team they are building.

JMHO

I don't believe you throw away any first round pick after 7 quarters of play. Now I really don't like the odds of JFF ever amounting to anything in terms of an NFL QB. But that really isn't the point here.

If a GM and FO give up on a player that soon, it means they've given up on what they believed so strongly a very short time ago. That would mean they question their own decision making in short order. That would worry me.

Former OC Kyle Shanahan highlights complexities of Johnny Manziel on field

Jeremy Fowler, ESPN Senior NFL Writer
link


Shanahan’s exit from Cleveland was bizarre even for NFL standards, fueled by reports he sought a lateral job and grew dismayed by in-game texting habits of general manager Ray Farmer, who was eventually suspended for violating league telecommunication rules.

Since getting that ‘lateral’ job as the Atlanta Falcons' offensive coordinator, Shanahan had remained quiet about his departure. But in explaining to ESPN’s Vaughn McClure his history with quarterbacks, he sort of tipped his hand on why he left.

He’s coaching Matt Ryan now. Less questions persist about Ryan’s game than the Cleveland Browns' quarterback situation -- specificallyJohnny Manziel.

Shanahan’s entire take on Manziel can be found here. He touched on some well-worn themes such as empowering Manziel’s strengths and the challenges of Manziel’s no-huddle system at Texas A&M.

But this is the portion I found particularly insightful:

“Johnny was quick. He didn't have the speed Robert (Griffin) had, but Johnny could break people off. And that's what his strongest asset was. I never had a guy who could make people miss like that. And the hardest thing, when you make people miss though, you get hit a lot because you're not going to the sideline. You're in between the tackles. That was the challenge with him. Johnny was going to be less designed runs but more scrambles."

So if running quarterbacks already face stigmas about their ability to quarterback effectively in the NFL, a scrambler with higher injury risk poses a difficult proposition.

None of that matters if a quarterback can convert third downs from the pocket, but if Manziel must operate “between the tackles,” as Shanahan says, Manziel’s size accentuates the challenge.

The one player who’s shown he can operate like that is Russell Wilson, who’s considered a scrambler and has learned how to avoid hits. Wilson (5-foot-11, 206) has a slightly bigger build than Manziel (6-0, 210). Don’t let those measurables fool you. Wilson might be an inch shorter but is stronger in stature.

Shanahan was trying to commend Manziel's skill set, but he also offered a realistic glimpse into Manziel's on-field complexities.

If Manziel can show he can throw on the run, in traffic or from the pocket, perhaps the Browns still have something.

But Cleveland seems set on Josh McCown starting in 2015 until proven otherwise, especially with what the Browns feel are a good defense and offensive line. They want the safest option possible at quarterback.

Shanahan doesn't have to worry about that anymore.

I really dont want to get into whining about Shanny and his designed runs but man I really hate designed runs with a QB. His run design is a beautiful thing for a RB but for a QB it was stupid and I will say the same thing about Flip and the Raiders. They got Carr killed.