DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Southern Pride (Confederate Flag)

Many of you probably see this thread and think "Rocket, why? We have enough divisive threads on same-sex equal rights, religion, and race. Why bring this up?"

How can one have pride with this flag? The south stood for states' rights, but really it just was "we don't want to be told what to do, and we enjoy free labor from those of a different skin color". I get people died fighting for this. I'm familiar with terms of "The War of Northern Aggression" but it could also be framed as "The War of Southern Treason".

Yes, free speech dictates the flag can be flown. Shouldn't this be frowned upon? Not free speech, but flying this flag just sits uneasy with me.

I just fail to find any pride in this flag. It'd pretty much be like someone in Germany still flying the Nazi flag to "honor the past". And before anyone states "Slavery isn't the Holocaust!" just think about the hundreds of years slavery of African-Americans was used in this country. Slavery conditions weren't fun at all.

I'm not from the south, so I have no...feel? for the community down there(I think this a valid perspective we need to take).

But I will say this:



Now, for those of you who live under a rock, that's Lil Jon and the Eastside Boys. For everybody who doesn't live under a rock, we already know how insanely popular Lil Jon is.

And I noticed that a lot with southern blacks, at least the ones i served with in the military, they all rep the Flag.

So what we up north typically see as a symbol of racism, oppressing, and just being a rebel(without a cause? lol....i'll stop), they see it as just a symbol of the south, a culture that is actually different from anywhere else in the country.

So i dunno if it's fair to put it in the same realm of an ISIS or Nazi flag. I can see the argument for it, as well as being against it.

So these days it's more about reappropriation?

If Lil Jon feels empowered by reappropriation, more power to him. And if someone who doesn't like black people wants to fly it to declare their feelings, more power to them. Those are individuals and they're free to express themselves however they may choose. When it comes to the area of state governments, though, I find it to be needless and in poor taste.

I think it's dumb, too... but then my natural inclination is to say that this isn't racist.


So I really think it's about how you grew up and what it meant to you.

unfortunately, yes.

same thing happened with the word Nigger. (aye refs i can say that as we're talking about this in an education way?)

same thing with women's body parts. Everybody use to make fun of blacks and big lips and huge butts. now look at how we view it today.

Like i said, i'm not from the south, i think the posters that live in the south should give their perspective on this. I always thought it represented racism and such. but now i'm not sure.

I agree. But, I'm not from the south. I guarantee some that fly that flag support holding down blacks - but I would think that most (or hope, anyway) look at the flag not as endorsing that as much as saying ........ah, I don't know how to say it.....


On a different note, to rocket - yes, the U.S. used slaves. They were purchased from African tribes. Tribes that attacked other tribes, and sold their African brothers. Not only to the U.S. - but to people from other countries as well.

Now, call me ignorant on this, and maybe I am - if so, correct me - but I don't recall hearing many stories of ships setting off from the colonies, arriving in Africa, and having colonists get off the ship and go attacking tribes of Africans in order to steal slaves. If I'm wrong, and that was widespread - educate me and forgive me for not knowing.

Slavery goes on as of today. I wish I could remember the book I read a couple of years ago.......Neve? was in it? (author).

It's not, nor wasn't, just the colonists/America that used/use slaves.

And I need to add - slavery is wrong, was wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated - but it existed/exists, and not just here.

I wonder how long it would take for people to get over things like Chief Wahoo disappearing or the Confederate Flag taken down from the capital.

I know there will be some die-hards, but I bet after a couple of weeks the majority would careless.

That opinion is not an endorsement for removing either.

The common misconception is that it only means one thing. It means different things to different people (especially in the south).. most will tell you it's about a legacy of southern pride and being independent and a rebel against the system that has nothing to do with racism... For them it's nothing more than a regional version of the state flag.. just like people might fly their state flag with pride, people from the south have a state flag but being from the region of the south is also a source of pride for them...


for some people it's all about racism and they wear that proudly...

Your comparison of the Stars and Bars to the Nazi flag would get you a busted nose where I live!

A vastly outnumbered and ill equipped army of American men bravely fought against the well equipped government army of the North and kicked their butts for 3 years and you compare them to Nazi's? This war was not fought over slavery but over a Centralized Federal Union versus an Independent States Rights and self determination. Slavery became part of the cause once it became good propaganda. Lincoln wouldn't even discuss the subject. He ordered his officers to return escaped slaves to their owners and later he would pay $400 per slave as long as the slave agreed to return to Africa or go to Central America.

The Stars and Bars represents brave Americans sacrificing everything to stand up to what they considered an oppressive Federal Government. What they did was exactly in the spirit of what Thomas Jefferson had said...

"What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

Nazi's my arse.

Not trying to derail the thread, but don't we have posters on the board that actually think the civil war was not over slavery?

J/C

So far this is going well. I'm learning a lot in here.

What's the pride, and what's the honor in being a rebel? What were they a rebel against, and why did they rebel? I always hear "it's not slavery!" But what did they truly rebel against and why?

In my youth, I used to be proud of the "Rebel Flag". It represented my family heritage. My family is all from the south and somewhat on the redneck side.

Now you can call that backward if you like, but I and many others see that differently. To me and many others, being a redneck means you don't take crap from others. That you don't conform to society or follow the crowd. Rather you stand for what you believe in and be yourself regardless of what others think.

Now let me state that my family were sharecroppers at the time of slavery. They were very poor and never owned slaves. As a matter of fact, you had to be pretty well off to afford slaves. It wasn't nearly as common as many depict it to be. A very small percentage of those in the south owned slaves.

Painting people from the south as slave owners and racists is using a very broad brush. My dad was from the south and raised in the mountains of Kentucky until he was old enough to join the military. He taught me some things I'm sure would offend some southerners and probably many posters on this board.

He told me to look at things in the big picture. And here are the kind of things he said to me...............

"Son, who do you think sponsors and funds groups like the KKK? Do you think it's the common man, or people trying to divide the common man? You see, as long as the powerful people can keep the poor divided, the poor will have no power. Only when the poor reject the idea of being divided against itself will they ever have the power to make the changes they need to have a real and fair chance in America."

That is certainly not the view of a racist. After the military he moved to Dayton Ohio for a good paying, union job. He explained to me about how there is power in uniting and working together. Both among workers and races as a people. He was a Christian man who attended Church twice a week.

So the Rebel Flag represented a pride of people like my dad. Poor southern, hard working people. As I became older I realized how many viewed the Rebel Flag and how it effected them on a personal level. So simply as a good will gesture towards those so offended by it, I decided to discontinue my use of it.

But my use of it at the time in no way represented anything other than the pride of a working class southern family and a somewhat rebellious view of my government.

I'm sure for many it was because they wanted to own slaves, but for some with a constitutional constructionist point of view, it was about the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The originals rebelled against a strong centralized federal government, which they viewed as very much favoring the north, in favor of independent states. Slavery was a big part of that but not all of it. To some extent, that is still how they view themselves as rebels against the federal government.. individually they just view themselves as rebels against authority in general.

What's the honor in being a rebel? The whole notion of being independent, self-sufficient.. the song "A Country Boy Can Survive" is like an anthem to this mode of thinking. The same line of thinking exists in the north as well, it's just more "Rural vs urban" as opposed to southern vs northern....

A rebel, as in not giving in to the system and being a typical 9-5er, independence, freedom. For many it symbolizes their freedom to live an easy laid back life. Not caught up in there rat race. We know that isn't true for all, but that is often the thought.

And to correct people, the confederate flag looks like


What most people consider the confederate flag was actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, or part of it actually. And that part became copied for most battle flags of the Confederacy.

Sounds like an enlightened area.

I have lived in the South for a long time. I have no doubt that for some, it is a symbol of hate, but for the VAST majority, it is indeed a symbol of heritage. Not a heritage of hate against black folks, but a heritage of honor, independence, and love of country.


Folks, the days of the people of the south hating on the "Negro" are long gone. At least as much as is possible. There are always going to be people who don't like blacks or don't like whites......screw them

I say this as a white man, so perhaps my experiences are off, but I can remember going to the South in the 1980's and 90's and sensing or witnessing palpable racism. It wasn't that long ago. But something's happened in a very short period of time. Maybe its the internet, who knows. But there is a positive shift that's taken place. There will always be warts, but from my limited experiences, I've seen a somewhat sudden shift.

Probably more like the 70's, but point taken.


I guess I seem to recall a lot of riots in Boston over bussing in the late 70's, but my northern brothers and sisters always seem to point towards the south as the source of prejudice against folks of color.

Boston might be my answer for most overt racism I've ever seen in a city. That or Cincinnati.

You can say the Civil War was about state's rights, but in this case it was a state's right to own slaves.

The south's economy was based on cotton and tobacco. The free state/slave state compromises were becoming more and more hostile. Lincoln's party had a strong abolitionist element that was becoming insistent about ending slavery.

So it was about the southern states concern about losing their right to own slaves.

It definitely became about slavery when Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

You are way wrong. This countrys economy was tobacco and cotton. Only when the northern industrialists sought tariffs on imported goods in order to sell theirs did any northerner give a damn about southern slaves. This country sucked up the money the south provided. Lincoln only fell back to "slaves" because he was losing the war and people were rioting in the northern cities against the war.


Lee could have easily "won" the war early on.....if the goal was to take over the north. But, he was a man of honor, that was never the goal or mission. The south simply wanted to take a different road.

so if lee won the war, we probably still be enslaved.

man...thank god that "honor" thing got in the way.

We all have our own experiences. I spent time working in Georgia last year. I worked in a good sized hospital with pretty much a 50/50 mix of black and white people. I had a great experience there. Now granted, I was the only white person in the department I was consulting with, the group knew their stuff and were completely willing to work to make things better in their department and we had a really good time together. So, I didn't witness, on a daily basis, a lot of interaction between the races besides me and them. But, I did see a good bit of it during my stay there, and everyone worked great together.

I realize I only see a certain segment of populations in my travels. But, I work all over this country and I have worked in many communities with an equal mix of minorities and white people, and I have seen them working together very well for the most part.

So, my take has been that when people work together and get to know each other, they do really well together except for the odd dumb ass here and there.

Where I do see the disparity is in the management positions. From my experience in healthcare, it is not because they won't hire minorities in these positions, it's because there are so few minority applicants. I've seen facilities hire people who are minorities, who are less qualified, and thus putting that person in a terrible position where they end up being let go.

It always boils down to education and a safe, stable environment to grow up in. That problem runs so deep and there are so many factors involved. Government has divided us and really has no incentive to fix these issues, it's what keeps them in power.

I think each one of us has to dig deep inside ourselves and do at least ONE thing to reach out to our communities and those in need. My Dad has done this over and over in his life. He's taught people to read, he's gotten people jobs, he's given them his own money.....and he's been burned more times than he's succeeded. He's not bitter about it, and he never gives up, because a few people have taken the help and succeeded. If more of us were like him, we might make a small dent in our issues.

That's a perfect Father's Day tribute.

Anyway, that was all somewhat off the topic of this thread, but that's my talent on this board.

Robert E. Lee was hardly a man of honor. He wasn't a racist sociopath, either, but let's not elevate him to a man worthy of emulation merely because others hold a low opinion of him. Lee did indeed consider slavery an evil, but a necessary one, so it's not like he had a Klan mask on, but it's also not like he was in a league of gentlemen. He's an interesting historical figure, but he deserves neither great shame or praise.

Jules,

Thank you for that little tidbit of your life. I tend to agree with your overall synopsis. I think "mingling" with people not like you is always daunting. At first, before you've encountered them, most people look to the rolodex of what they have seen or heard. And most of that seen and heard has come from TV and movies. So they come to believe certain things. Sometimes, it's not even negative things. For example, a lot of white people look to older black people for a sort of 'wisdom' that is as earnest as it is patronizing. That's straight out of TV & movies. But I disgress...in that first stage, there are expectations. Stage two comes in when you meet that person. When folks got to know Ellen Degeneres and thought "Huh, I thought she'd be more butch", or when the atheist meets the Christian who isn't as rigid and judgmental as they thought, etc. That's where you really start to separate the wheat from the chaff, or as you say, a few dumbasses. The third tier, though, yes, is when we get to corporate America, and that's where you're judged on a host of merits that are completely unfair to a person and who they are.

Personally, I think there should be a nationwide social convention/rule that dictates this:

Anyone should feel free to display this flag... so long as they are also required to chant:

"We're #2! We're #2!"

It's a flag that pays tribute to a failed nation state. A nation that only existed because its citizens refused to adapt and adjust. As such, it should be held up (and 'celebrated') in this light.

__________________

It's been said that a picture's worth a thousand words. This image speaks volumes to me.




It's the battle flag of a nation that was at war with the USA.
#2, indeed.

They could always fly a Browns flag, instead. It'd be a lot more attractive.

Late 60's/early 70's,Peen... but we won't quibble about a few years here or there.

Those Boston riots were the first scenes that showed my young eyes that the story wasn't as cut-and-dried as I'd been led to believe.

It also set the stage for my understanding of 'Northern Racism,' as well.

It was more pervasive and universal than I'd believed up 'til then, I'm not so naïve these days.

There's nothing in what I wrote that is wrong.

Many northerners were fanatics about slaves. I have zero idea how you can state otherwise.

The nations economy was becoming industrialized, southern economy was based on primitive theories of owning humans. Their economy was based on abomination.

A myth about Lincoln only falling back to slaves has been perpetuated to excuse slavery. Lincoln had always been anti-slavery, which might have explained why the southern states were angry he was elected. He did see the Emancipation Proclamation as something that would provide - a cause to fight for - and yes because the war had been going on too long and Union soldiers were growing weary.

Lee's reluctance was based on his allegiance to the nation and his experiences with officers during West Point years. The only road the south wanted to go down was the road allowing them to continue profiting from the lives of others spent on working and breeding more economy.

I won't argue that over the hundred and more years the Confederate has grown to symbolize different meanings to different people, but like someone recently observed, The Confederate Flag is about state's rights in the same way the Nazi flag is about the German economy".

Anyone who wants a real History lesson about the TRUTH of the Civil War, get into this series...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dsTBYfTYz8

Tear Down That Flag: Republican Lawmaker Pushes Bill To Toss Confederate Flag From S.C. State House

http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/06...ag-state-house/

The Confederate flag flies in front of the South Carolina State House in Charleston. A Confederate flag license plate is attached to the front of 21-year-old Dylann Roof’s car.
Roof, who reportedly wanted “to start a civil war,” shot and killed nine black worshippers at Emanuel A.M.E. Church, a historically black house of God that has consistently been a house of resilience, “a symbol of black freedom” since its founding in 1816.
It is relatively simple to grasp why Roof, a man photographed wearing a jacket bearing flags of two African countries when whites ruled blacks — Aparthied-era South Africa, and Rhodesia, now known as Zimbabwe — would want the Confederate flag decorating his car. But it is far less clear what a Confederate flag is doing outside a United States government building in 2015. To make a horror even more horrifying, the Confederate flag was not even lowered to half-mast in the aftermath of the shooting.
“Take Down the Confederate Flag — Now,” wrote Ta-Nehisi Coates in The Atlantic, less than a day after the murders. South Carolina NAACP President Lonnie Randolph, in an effort to put the shooting in context, pointed out that “This is a state that feels that it is okay to fly the Confederate flag in front of our State House.” And on. And on. And on.
And then: on Friday, Republican South Carolina State Representative Norman “Doug” Brannon announced that he plans to sponsor legislation to take down the Confederate flag from the front of the state Capitol. As he told Chris Hayes on MSNBC, “I had a friend die Wednesday night for no reason other than he was a black man. Sen. Pinckney was an incredible human being. I don’t want to talk politics but I’m going to introduce the bill for that reason.”
Brannon is one of the few high-profile Republican legislators not only to speak out against the Confederate flag’s display at the State House but, in doing so, to acknowledge the flag as a symbol of hate and the murders as a hate crime. Republican South Carolina Senator Lindsay Graham declined to attribute Roof’s actions to the racist implications of the Stars and Bars (“It’s him… not the flag.“) and asserted Charleston’s right to keep the flag on display: “It works here, that’s what the State House agreed to do. You could probably visit other places in the country near some symbol that doesn’t quite strike you right.”
Though Jeb Bush, one of approximately 10,000 people who wants to be the GOP presidential candidate in 2016, actually demanded the Confederate flag be removed from the Florida Capitol grounds 14 years ago, he has avoided contextualizing the shooting as a racist act, saying instead, “I don’t know what was on the mind or the heart of the man who committed these atrocious crimes.” While “It looked to me like it was” a racist act, Bush told Huffington Post reporter Laura Bassett, he repeated that he “didn’t know” for sure what motivated Roof.
Only a state law can get the flag off the South Carolina Capitol grounds; it is currently under the protection of the 2000 South Carolina Heritage Act, which “stipulates… where certain flags of the Confederacy shall be flown or displayed on the grounds of the State Capitol complex, and which prohibits the removal of these Confederate flags on the State House grounds and the removal, changing or renaming of any local or state monument, marker, memorial, school or street erected or named in honor of the Confederacy or the Civil Rights movement” without a join resolution, a two-thirds vote of each house, the usual rigamarole.
And yes, you are reading that correctly: the same legislation that keeps the Confederate flag hoisted above Charleston is the one that protects the legacy of the Civil Rights movement.
Brannon said he will “pre-file that bill in December before we go back into session.”

The Civil War was absolutely about slavery. Read the secessionist declarations from the confederate states here - http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

I think we would all be a lot more convinced that the "Confederate Flag" was being used to represent state rights or cultural significance if they used the actual Confederate flag. It should have never been state sponsored after the Civil War. It's allowed for a culture to grow around America's Swastika.

How do you explain the events in Charleston?

If that flag is a symbol of racism then how do you explain our first black president?

You know, Clinton can do wrong...

Nikki Haley says the flag may represent the past, but it no place in the future.

Say goodbye to our Indians and their logo.
They are marching in DC against the Redskins and their logo.

So far no one is offended by the American Flag, so far.

Pittsburgh offends me, anyone else?