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All Browns draft picks are under contract. Johnson signed this afternoon. link
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I wonder what the hold up was.
Now to just get Gipson figured out.
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I wonder what the hold up was.
Now to just get Gipson figured out. He signed his 2nd round tender, so he'll be on the field with the Browns for the 2015 season. If he stays healthy and is productive you have to believe he'll get his long term deal. Glad to see Duke and the rest of the rookies sign! The more reps, the better.
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The few reports I saw prior to his signing were vague about the issues delaying his deal.
Having all players under contract at this stage of the off season is rare for the Brown's,in my recollection.
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The rookie salary cap that was adopted during the previous lock out has been a huge part of players getting signed sooner. There isn't any money for them to hold out for.
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Semi-bold prediction:
Duke Johnson has more touches than West.
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I can see West's touches being affected by Johnson. I can see Crowell's reps being affected as well. What I don't see is a zero-sum proposition. I think its just as likely that West and Crowell's average per carry increases in part due to the Duke's presence in the rotation. If the offense is able to get the type of mismatches it wants from Johnson's presence in the passing game it will create more space for West and Crowell on the zone runs they ran last season. I can also envision Duke in the formation with one of the sophomore backs coupled with motion to create opportunities for guys to make plays. I say "in the formation" instead of exclusively "in the backfield" because reports suggest we are going to see guys lined up in a lot of places and in combinations that won't be predictable.
I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again. I think West is just as talented as Crowell. I think Johnson, because of what he can do from multiple positions, can expand threats this offense will present to opposing defenses.
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I'm going to say he's a third down back and plays a part on the kickoff or punt return game.
At first I didn't like this pick, but I'm warming up to it.
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Semi-bold prediction:
Duke Johnson has more touches than West. Something tells me Johnson, West, and Crowell will look similar to the Saints when they had Pierre Thomas, Mark Ingram, and Darren Sproles. I think it'll mostly be situational packages dictating who plays.
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Of course training camp will reveal what type of role, if any, Johnson will have. Everything about his scouted skill set says that he can do more than that. I would be disappointed if he's relegated to a third down back role in the conventional sense.
With so many predictions that the offense will be underwhelming to be able to mix in Duke on early downs gives the offense another weapon that defenses have to account for. I can't be the only one who saw defenses have increasing success stuffing the zone run as the season went along. The offense needs another dimension to keep defenses off balance. IMO for this offense to increase scoring Duke has to be multiple.
Philosophically, I see parallels between how Flip wants to use Duke and what he wants from his 'F' TE. A player who is something other than position-centric.
Last edited by guard dawg; 06/17/15 10:53 PM.
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If it isn't obvious I'm fascinated by the potential of our running attack when considering personnel and scheme. When Flip talked about his offense way back in March, I believe it was, he talked about keeping the zone blocking scheme but also incorporating Gap-blocking in the offense. I'm going to credit Clevesteve with providing a link to a site which explains Gap schemes in depth. A number of elements about this excite me. 1, We'll have something other than the outside zone for running the ball. 2, the running plays at the core of the Gap blocking scheme are the Power Run and the Counter Trey. 3, Gap blocking involves significant reliance on backside OL pulling to the playside. Running those plays to the right side of our line gets two of our best OL pulling to the playside on these calls. 4, running Johnson with his quickness and burst on the Counter Trey has potential to be explosive. 5, based on play diagrams Wests seems well suited to run the Gap Scheme Power Run.
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I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again. I think West is just as talented as Crowell. I think Johnson, because of what he can do from multiple positions, can expand threats this offense will present to opposing defenses. Why do you think that? I think West was actually pretty horrible last year.
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He averaged 4 yards per carry and had some tremendous blitz pickups. I think people wanted to see more of Crow and began to overlook what West was doing on the field. Love Crow as he is a Red Zone Monster but I thought we were better with West taking the majority of the reps and then turning it over to Crow once we got inside the 30.
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I wonder what the hold up was.
Now to just get Gipson figured out. If you look at the numbers, some players drafted after Duke signed for more money then some players drafted before him. Even in a slotted age, there are some glitches. I think Duke and his agent were pointing that out, as they should.....if I was Dukes agent I would be telling the Browns they want my client to sign for less then players drafted before him and after him.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again. I think West is just as talented as Crowell. I think Johnson, because of what he can do from multiple positions, can expand threats this offense will present to opposing defenses. Why do you think that? I think West was actually pretty horrible last year. I'll start by saying I like both players. In my opinion West is more elusive than Crow, which is both his blessing and curse. Crow was more decisive through the hole but once West gets to the second level he has more "make you miss" in his game than Crowell. I like West's ability to set up blocks with his vision and patients. Crowell is more of a slasher, he'll get an initial advantage through the hole and take it as far as he can with foot speed and leverage taking the rock as far as that intial advantage will allow. West, in space, is more creative he goes through tacklers with power or around them or over them as that sick move against the Ravens showed in the final game. Without question West is better in blitz pickup, and he showed more as a pass receiver although each guy had limited opportunities in Shanny's offense. You could call ball security a push but without checking I think West only lost one of this three fumbles last season. I don't hate Crowell, I'm glad he's a Brown but I also appreciate West. Even if I'm among the minority of fans who do.
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n my opinion West is more elusive than Crow, which is both his blessing and curse. Crow was more decisive through the hole but once West gets to the second level he has more "make you miss" in his game than Crowell. I like you, but I can't let this go. That is utterly and completely false.
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I like Duke's heart and moves, but I doubt he will stay healthy for an entire season.
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n my opinion West is more elusive than Crow, which is both his blessing and curse. Crow was more decisive through the hole but once West gets to the second level he has more "make you miss" in his game than Crowell. I like you, but I can't let this go. That is utterly and completely false. I have to agree here as well. I think Terrance West has a much sharper looking cut but that's it. Crowell has better vision and is a lot more elusive. West makes that one cut and goes. I think this could be made a lot more clear if we could consistently throw them the ball from out of the backfield, something we virtually never did last season.
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n my opinion West is more elusive than Crow, which is both his blessing and curse. Crow was more decisive through the hole but once West gets to the second level he has more "make you miss" in his game than Crowell. I like you, but I can't let this go. That is utterly and completely false. We disagree. I'll take that and keep on moving.
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I have to agree here as well.
I think Terrance West has a much sharper looking cut but that's it. Crowell has better vision and is a lot more elusive. West makes that one cut and goes.
This is the opposite of what I see. Specifically, West had trouble at the POA at times throughout the season because he would chop his feet in the hole. He seemed to be looking for a better running lane and his indecision resulted in little or no gain in those situations. As the season when on he reduced (not eliminated) this tendency and was better at just taking what was available.
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j/c...
Rookie contract I think the only thing negotiable is the guaranteed money. Possibly he had to get his end in sync as in representation, bank accounts, etc. Is every rookie signed and talking NFL (what % is signed)? If not then this is ahead of the curve anyways and not unusual.
West seems to be waiting for those big college holes to appear and still does his shake and bake. He'll get better I think he did as the year went along. The coaches seem to see something special in West. Crowell seems to be a more decisive hard nose runner not looking to hit that HR everytime he touches the ball. He'll settle for the single.
I think Crowell has been excellent by the goal Line. I heard they had him in the slot a lot the other practice that is interesting...a nice quick slant on the run with the ball in his hands... Safeties...meet MR. Crowell.
Johnson has good potential. Pretty much guarantee he won't be getting too many reps - with 3 valid RBs we will keep them all fresh. Someguys like West are the type who get better with more carries???
There is a fine line with confidence and cockiness to becoming a Pain in the Butt. Hope West doesn't cross that line often!
jmho
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Go Browns!
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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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He averaged 4 yards per carry and had some tremendous blitz pickups. I think people wanted to see more of Crow and began to overlook what West was doing on the field. Love Crow as he is a Red Zone Monster but I thought we were better with West taking the majority of the reps and then turning it over to Crow once we got inside the 30. West's 3.9 yards per attempt was 31st in the league. I remember one blitz pickup where West destroyed a player, other than that I don't think he was anything better than average. Based on last year, there is one person who should lose touches to Johnson and that player is not Crowell.
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Crowell should be getting the bulk of the carries.
If he gets rid of his fumble issues and can learn to pickup the blitz he has superstar written all over him.
JMHO
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Crowell should be getting the bulk of the carries.
If he gets rid of his fumble issues and can learn to pickup the blitz he has superstar written all over him.
JMHO I agree. I thought Crowell ran harder, more in a direct line where as West danced a little too much for a big guy. Although I really like both. Crowell does have to take care of the ball better and West needs to run harder with more purpose. JMO
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Its pretty clear that different posters, me included, are entrenched in their positions. It's always nice when others agree with your point of view...nice, but far from necessary.
Speaking only for myself I don't need to rip West to be a fan of Crowell. As I will continue to say they both have plenty of talent. In fact here are their actual league rankings from '14 including their per carry averages which are separated by an amount so small as to be meaningless.
Source NFL.COM:
Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng
24 Terrance West CLE RB 171 12.2 673 3.9 48.1 4 36
1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
30 17.5 4 0 1
Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng
29 Isaiah Crowell CLE RB 148 9.2 607 4.1 37.9 8 35
1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
34 23.0 5 0 3
These numbers don't support the idea that West is at all a lessor player than Crowell. From where I sit his on field performance doesn't support that notion either. It will be interesting to come back to this thread during the season and see how they both look. I contend that West will be as important to our running game as Crowell.
Last edited by guard dawg; 06/19/15 05:59 PM.
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Its pretty clear that different posters, me included, are entrenched in their positions. It's always nice when others agree with your point of view...nice, but far from necessary.
Speaking only for myself I don't need to rip West to be a fan of Crowell. As I will continue to say they both have plenty of talent. In fact here are their actual league rankings from '14 including their per carry averages which are separated by an amount so small as to be meaningless.
Source NFL.COM:
Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng
24 Terrance West CLE RB 171 12.2 673 3.9 48.1 4 36
1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
30 17.5 4 0 1
Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng
29 Isaiah Crowell CLE RB 148 9.2 607 4.1 37.9 8 35
1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
34 23.0 5 0 3
These numbers don't support the idea that West is at all a lessor player than Crowell. From where I sit his on field performance doesn't support that notion either. It will be interesting to come back to this thread during the season and see how they both look. I contend that West will be as important to our running game as Crowell. I agree. I know I'm wishing here but having West, Crowell, and Johnson makes me think of Mack, Byner, and the Ice cube(McNeil). Before I get blasted I know it's not a realistic comparison at this point but I like what I see so far. Crow and West have a ton of upside with their lack of big time college experience. I haven't seen Johnson run at Miami but heard good things.
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Johnson makes me think more Metcalf.
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That seems like a pretty astute comparison to an old school Brown. Although I think he's fully capable of running between the tackles I hope we don't overdue that. That's where West and Crow should make their money. Sprinkle in a little Duke with runs inside just to keep defenses honest.
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Okay, let's take a look at this: The site is http://www.fanaticalyankee.com Here are their thoughts on agility: Agility. Acceleration, Fluidity, and Ricochet. Long Speed is all well and good, but at the end of the day, it's Gravy. What wins Championships is Moving The Chains. And Moving The Chains is accomplished far better by guys who exhibit the Agility ~ and the Power ~ to consistently pick up 5 and sometimes 10 Yards at a time. Here is their views on West in regards to agility: Agility ~ Adequate. Moderate Acceleration to the Hole and Ricochet out'f'is Breaks. Impressive Fluidity. Now, on to Crowell: Agility ~ Extraordinary. His Acceleration to the Hole or the Edge and his Ricochet out'f Breaks is very adept, but what sets Crowell's Agility apart is his incredible Fluidity. His Capacity to instantaneously torque Direction or Gear is sensational.
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Okay, let's take a look at this: The site is http://www.fanaticalyankee.com Here are their thoughts on agility: Agility. Acceleration, Fluidity, and Ricochet. Long Speed is all well and good, but at the end of the day, it's Gravy. What wins Championships is Moving The Chains. And Moving The Chains is accomplished far better by guys who exhibit the Agility ~ and the Power ~ to consistently pick up 5 and sometimes 10 Yards at a time. Here is their views on West in regards to agility: Agility ~ Adequate. Moderate Acceleration to the Hole and Ricochet out'f'is Breaks. Impressive Fluidity. Now, on to Crowell: Agility ~ Extraordinary. His Acceleration to the Hole or the Edge and his Ricochet out'f Breaks is very adept, but what sets Crowell's Agility apart is his incredible Fluidity. His Capacity to instantaneously torque Direction or Gear is sensational. It's not awful, but the source is about the equivalent of you or me giving an evaluation. I like the disclaimer at the bottom of the site: Please do Note: This and all Evaluations issued by this Site are produced by a ludicrously unqualified Amateur, privy to not even the tiniest fraction of Coach's Tape, Scouting Expertise, Face to Face Interviewing, Experience, or Inside Information enjoyed by the Professionals. As such, anything put forth is certainly misinformed, euphonious, derivative Tripe, and should be rejected out'f hand and indeed shunned by all men and women of Good Will!! I'm trying to discern Power, Agility, Combat Skills, and far more abstract, esoteric Concepts such as Processing Speed and Motor, and I'm trying to do so based almost entirely on a fascinating fusion of Tape, Combine Numbers, and Pro Days, while trying to attenuate my findings based on Allowances for Competition Level, Scheme, Concept, Context, and, above all: Trajectory!!
This is not is even remotely a Complaint, mind you, but rather a Warning: Caveat Emptor!!
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I wonder what the hold up was.
Playing time bonus incentives, especially considering the committee of RB's now...
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