DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued x2

Strange two teams rather stick with Manual and Smith. AZ waved him needing a starter. Pittsburgh and New England didn't need his services. One team this year signed after most of the other good QBs were signed. I am struggling to understand whether you are right or 31 teams missing an opportunity. It happen before. I can't knock your logic.

And your neutral??

NE and Pittsburgh have future HOF QB's if I recall? Arizona traded for Palmer and Hoyer asked for his release because he wanted to go somewhere that he would have a chance to start, but you should know all this stuff and I suspect your doing the mud sling thing hoping something sticks whats worse your doing the same post on multiple threads.

The facts say as a Browns starter Hoyer is 10-6, during that same time frame the balance of QB's posted a 1-15 mark, care to address that care to bring logic to what would cause a team to turn their backs on that in favor of a career loser.

Didn't think so.

Now that Ben Roethlisberger has been officially ruled out, Charlie Batch is the starter and Brian Hoyer is the backup.

"The facts say as a Browns starter Hoyer is 10-6"

Perhaps the Buffalo game should changed to a loss for Hoyer.. after all, during the time Hoyer was actually playing.. the Browns were losing 10 - 0

The Browns won that game because of Weeden and the Defense, not because of Hoyer, but for some reason logic does not prevail in this instance and Hoyer gets credit for leading the Browns to a win, even though he had nothing to do with any scores and the Browns were losing when he left the game...

He started the game, and his contributions until he left the game were a loss.. If not for Weeden, Hoyer would have had a loss as the starter.. Weeden pulled the game out and gets no credit for preventing a Browns loss. Only Hoyer receives any credit..

ok 9 and 6 then and all other QBs 2 and 16. better?

Okay fine. Let's change it.

9 and 6 compared to 2 and 14.

Now, what is your point?

Btw-----------if you--or anyone---could not see the difference in terms of energy and enthusiasm that the rest of team played with when Hoyer was at qb compared to when Weeden was at qb......then you just weren't watching.

Oh, that reminds me..........what about the difference in the rest of team's performance when Hoyer was at qb compared to when Johnny took his place?

Freaking Jeremy Hill punked us after we blew out the Bengals in game 1 [Hoyer at qb] and then ran the ball down our throats in game 2 when Manziel was at qb.

You guys don't even have a valid argument. But, as long as you pretend we "are not all there" then it should be fine because it's not about the truth around here, its about being on the "popular" side.

Yeah, like all those games he won at the end of the year?

Like I've been saying, It's not where you start it's how you finish. You think he'd be gone if he finished like he started? When we needed him, he crapped the bed. End of story. He's no longer a Brown, He don't count anymore.

We should sign Vince Young then..

any one not named mCcown.....

He's a Brown. He deserves to be treated like it. Then if he ends up like BH, then yeah, no respect due

Come on!!!! New Englanded TRADED Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallett. Both those guys played behind Brady. They got nothing for Hoyer. New England doesn't let quality go without getting something in return.

AZ traded for Palmer. Correct! Why? If Hoyer was as you stated, why did they feel they needed to trade for an injury prone 30+ yo quarterback? I understand getting a FA QB to help mentor. Trading is a commitment.

Pittsburgh is another team that don't let talent walkout the door without getting something in return.

Hoyer did well in two short spurts two different seasons. Actually three, his first attempt in AZ wasn't great, but I understand it was last two games with a team going nowhere. McCown is a dud because he failed on his second attempt. Neither QB has yet sustained an entire season.

At the end of the year he was the 31st ranked QB. Thats all that needs to be stated.

j/c

I can see both sides to a degree. Yes Hoyer has a winning record as our QB. I saw him bring us back in a game against the Titans that was simply remarkable.

One thing that I just can't get out of my mind though was how his mechanics broke down in crunch time. His footwork, delivery and decision making all went south late in the season.

Yes, I understand there were some injuries on the team. I'm not dismissing that and maybe we wouldn't have won those games even if his mechanics and decision making hadn't flown south for the winter.

But after years in the league, I find it troublesome that a QB's mechanics would simply go to hell when he's under duress.

I can't find a thing wrong with anything you said Pitt.

Here is the thing though for me do you believe Hoyer is who he was thru his 1st 12 starts or do you believe he is who he was over the last 4 starts?

Also there was always this underlying thing where Hoyer was treated like he was in the way by both the fans and the FO/coaching staff because he was the starter in front of Johnny. It wasn't easy for that fact alone.

But here is the thing the guy is a tireless worker, so my belief is he learns from everything that happened and puts the work in to correct it and comes back stronger and better then ever.

He was a leader on this team, who was put in a pretty tuff spot when for whatever reason he slowed down enough to take a breath everything fell apart, but the thing is, is that who you think he is? I know I don't.

I could give a pretty good laundery list of reason Hoyer struggled down the stretch all vaid IMO.

But like I said the thing is who do you think Hoyer is a fighter or a quitter. He will be back in form and better IMO, because that is who he has shown himself to be.

Isn't it queer to you how easily folks will continue to back Johnny and talk about 2nd and 3rd chances but for Hoyer who did prove he can win forget it 4 bad games get him out of here? Makes me think people have double standards, and they most certainly do when it comes to Hoyer.

Mike Pettine won't ask Johnny Manziel to stick around Cleveland before camp

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns coach Mike Pettine isn't going to prevent Johnny Manziel from earning frequent flyer miles over the next six weeks before training camp begins.

"I'm not going to micromanage our guys,''" Pettine said Thursday at the conclusion of minicamp. ""This break is well deserved and wherever they choose to spend it, that they feel will benefit them the most, then so be it.''"

Last season, Manziel took that as a green light to party hard from coast to coast before coming in and trying to beat out Brian Hoyer for the starting job. Included was the photo that rocked the Browns world, the one of Manziel rolling up a bill in the bathroom of a bar. This summer, the Browns aren't anticipating any such shenanigans with Manziel fresh out of a 10-week stint in rehab and shedding his Johnny Football persona.

"I can't lie and say I miss that,'' Pettine said. "It was a good learning experience for us as a team, as an organization but that's a chapter in a book that's closed for us. We're onto 2015 and we have goals we want to accomplish.''

Manziel, like the rest of the players, has been called upon to return for camp in late July further ahead than he was in minicamp. He's not expected to press Josh McCown for the starting job, but the Browns want to see a leap nonetheless.

"It's a trust thing,'' said Pettine. "We wanted to make sure that they left with the information that they needed, when they have to be back and what the expectations are when they come back. But they have their books, they have their video and it will be on them to take that next step.''

Browns offensive coordinator John DeFilippo said Thursday that although Manziel has made good progress, Josh McCown would start if they lined up against the Jets in the opener tomorrow.

It's doubtful Manziel can change that, even if he did hang out in his quiet west side golf community for the next six weeks.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/06/mike_pettine_wont_ask_johnny_m.html

Here is a question, of the other 31 teams how many of the STARTING QBs would you replace with Hoyer?

I think the thing that you and others might be forgetting is that even during the wins, Hoyer showed some bad play. Keep in mind, I wanted to bring Hoyer back. I believe he showed enough to get a chance to continue to improve and build on the season.

But we cannot forget some really bad play even during the wins. Missing wide open receivers. Unable to connect on deep balls for easy TDs. The difference between winning and losing in the NFL can be one or two missed open WRs in a game. A professional QB should never miss a wide open receiver. Ever. Tight window? Sure. But I remember commenting in the game day chats that Hoyer would constantly miss gimmes. That is an absolute no-no in the professional ranks. Good QBs don't miss wide open guys.

A lot of those comebacks had to be made because of Hoyer's play earlier in the games. Kudos to him though for delivering those victories. The Tenn and ATL victories were particularly sweet. Did you ever notice when Hoyer played even, didn't make too many mistakes like missing wide open guys, the Browns blew away the opponent like with Pitt and Cinci? But he just wasn't consistently that guy.

Hard worker, smart QB, good leader, horrible accuracy. It absolutely killed us in games. Then when he lost his confidence on top of that, it was game over.

I wished we would have re-signed him. I think people gave up on him too early. But a lot of people are romanticizing his wins, and he had some awful stretches of play even in those.

Here is a question, of the other 31 teams how many of the STARTING QBs would you replace with MCcown?

The Browns for sure...............

And that my friend is the only team that counts.....

So what you are admitting to is Hoyer is not good enough to start for any of the other 31 teams.

well from what i have been reading you could count the texans too.

I never said McCown is/was good but the Browns felt he was better for the TEAM than Hoyer.

Okay. How did Josh McCown finish?

I think your post and Pit's post are both pretty accurate. I am not a huge Hoyer fan and I think the weaknesses and problems you guys mentioned are real.

My problem w/all this is two-fold:

--I don't get why we dumped Hoyer when JM is not being viewed as the starter. I could understand cutting ties w/Hoyer if that were the case because the players would have been very upset if JM was the guy over Hoyer. I just don't get parting ways w/Hoyer and giving the job to McCown. I think we have the worst set of qbs in the league. Is Hoyer going to make us good? No, but he's better than what we got.

--My second issue is that it bugs me how many people are dismissing all the good Hoyer did and only pointing to a 4 game stretch, as if any qb who ever had a bad four game stretch is automatically doomed. That type of thinking is either ignorant or utterly biased.

To clarify: Neither you or Pit are doing that. I have the same questions and concerns you guys do. I know that Bone loves Hoyer. I am not in that group. I have just been arguing the way I have for the two above reasons.

Actually Vers, I don't get the move from Hoyer to McCown either. Even for those who consider it a lateral move, why?

Unless there were things going on behind the scene that we are totally unaware of, it just doesn't add up to me.

I'm kind of ho hum on the whole thing because I don't see either Hoyer or McCown as the long term answer, so no matter the design of the band aid, it's still just a band aid to me.

But I will say I don't understand the logic of the move. The only thing I can say that we know for sure is that Flip is somewhat familiar with McCown.

For the record Vers, I like Hoyer the way you like the girl who puts out. She isn't the prettiest and she sure isn't the best looking one but you get your nut with her and she is great company until something better comes along she will do just fine, and ya never know she may get a do over and become the girl of your dreams.

I have NO problem with replacing Hoyer like I have said before the one and only requirement is and should be they have to be better. McCown isn't therefore I view the move as stupid.

I believe that's a rather loaded question. Hoyer has been in the league for many years, not just the past couple of seasons.



You need a very strong minded and strong willed QB to succeed. Pressure comes in all forms.



I do believe and agree with you that he was a tireless worker. I've seen people who have the ability to be great which hard work helps them achieve. I've also seen people who lack the ability to be great which hard work can help them achieve their ability, but nothing more. I have no idea which way Hoyer would have went.



The only real thing I would take issue with here is the part about "slowing down to take a breath". I think that's a little fluff. lol But I guess that would depend on your point of view. If you look over his entire career, I believe people would say he was simply a flash in the pan. My view is that he lacked many essential ingredients to ever be a franchise QB.



Many people are fighters and not quitters. Yet that fight will only take you as far as your talent level is.



To a point I agree with you. To a point I don't. I don't believe JFF will ever amount to anything in regards to an NFL QB. Yet Hoyer has seven seasons under his belt and been on many teams. It's not like Hoyer didn't have many "chances" before he came here.

I believe that's why there is a lot of disconnect here. Some are looking over Hoyers career. Some see QB's like Vince Young and Tebow and realize that a QB alone doesn't win games.

So it's not so much that I don't see or even agree with some of your points. It's just that I can see an argument for both sides.

I think Houston and the Browns are pretty similar in terms of talent save our O line being better it will be interesting to see who does better. My money is on Hoyer.

But we have to wait. Talk to me then K?

So why all the to do from you about Hoyer he is not on the Browns by your statement "doesn't count"

And if you think Hoyer is all that why were you pushing for the Browns to trade for an injured Bradford?

Would you rather have Hoyer or Bradford?

Yes no Hoyer in your post, he doesn't count...

you asked why he wanted hoyer and bradford. that is the answer.

Thought this was Manziel threat....goes where it goes. Manziel seems to have grown up some..love the fact he's done with money sign, this break will show growth or backup, again...hope he succeeds.
Vers Dog, Hoyer is gone, I like him for his quick decisions, leadership, BUT it went out the window...even during his wins, duck passes which could/should have been TDs didn't happen, and his last starting games were capital BAD...JMHO, I trust the front office and Pettine, collectively they didn't want him back AT HIS PRICE....Houston didn't pay it either. He's gone and we have McCown and Manziel....JMHO, you don't write off a Heisman Trophy winner after couple quarters/ AND a first round draft pick. Love the fact the team expects/ will make him work to see the field, time will tell IF he has NFL ability or not.....GO Browns!!!!

threat huh?

only so much can be talked about with a backup QB.

This is what your reply was to...Had nothing to do with Bradford. My next post did but you didn't reply to that one.

i am truly not surprised you cant figure it out. its real football and not the smack shack.