DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Shooting suspect in custody after Charleston church massacre

Somebody needs to start pushing the NRA in that direction then...


Removing guns would take time and focused effort.


The problem is that the people with guns for defense usually aren't where the ill-intent people are.. elementary schools, churches, movie theaters.... there is a reason these people don't walk into biker bars or down into the hood for their senseless acts of violence.

We just have a massive cultural problem that I don't understand... why, as a nation, are we so hell-bent on self-destruction? I don't understand the fascination with doing things "just because I can" when the results have been shown to be so detrimental.

You kind of made the pro-gun peoples point with your last sentence.

because of massive fear mongering.

we in this country have be led to believe that danger lurks in every corner, 24/7.

hell, guess what DC? there's a criminal in your yard. like, right now.

Why would a nut walk into a biker bar to shoot em up? Those people are armed and can defend themselves. Go to a place where the Liberals call the shots and you will find groups of unarmed, unprotected citizens. That is why nuts go to those places.

I will respectfully disagree that it is "a pretty irrelevant example......." If guns are banned - they are banned. Illegal. Yet look at all of the shootings that still happen.

So, expand the "no gun" area? Make it a 50 minute drive? Won't change a thing. Ban all guns everywhere? Same thing - won't make a difference.

And I want to add this: I'm not a gun nut. I have no problems with background checks - would be in favor of them at gun shows even.

The problem is - criminals - by the very definition of the term - commit crimes. Laws don't stop them.

If someone can come up with a law that will prevent shootings like at the Church, etc......but no law will prevent it. (short of going house to house and taking all guns - which is a physical impossibility).

Gun regulation is a hot topic - no doubt. Everyone (politicians) want to appear to be tough on it - but what can be done?

And, as for the murder rate in the u.s. - isn't an awful lot of it done by gangs? Drug initiated violence?

Look at the war on drugs - how's that going? Heroin is illegal everywhere, as is coke, etc........banning it just doesn't seem to be working in that war.

I don't like the senseless violence with guns. At all. Guns make it so much easier to kill larger numbers of people than knives, for example.

But how do we decrease that aspect, while allowing law abiding citizens to keep their guns?

Nothing arch, not a damn thing. Let's keep rolling like we have been, it's working splendidly.


We do have a culture problem here arch, I won't deny it. We are a people of excess.


If I could magically guarantee you that I could take all of the guns away from criminals today by 5:00 and they would never get them back, would the law abiding people be able to give up theirs? Just the handguns and the semi-automatic stuff. You can keep the legitimate hunting weapons? Would you be willing to make that deal?

Amen brother.

And that would be just plain paranoid thinking. Life is good
but if trouble comes my way, I am prepared for it, just like I carry a spare tire for a flat I never expect to have.

So, let's just haphazardly make more laws?

Yup - you guarantee that criminals won't have access to any guns........wait, that'll never happen.

In an ideal world, I might. But what about my semi auto 12 gauge I use to hunt deer? Or my pump shot gun - I can fire that almost as fast as the semi-auto. (notice I said "almost")

Which guns do I have to turn in? My semi-auto .22 cal handgun I and my daughter plink with? 10 rd. capacity. Would I have to turn in my .22 bolt action rifle? 20 round capacity?

I'm not trying to be snarky, unlike you in your first comment above - but here's the deal: Brandishing a weapon in the commission of a felony is, in Ohio anyway, an automatic 7 years in addition to any penalty for the crime committed. Murder is illegal in all 50 states. Carrying without a license is illegal. Buying a gun for someone else is illegal, etc etc etc........

There are more gun laws than I can count. New laws won't deter criminals, since the existing laws don't deter them.

So - short of banning all guns - what can be done? That's an honest question. You don't, I don't, and no one else has an answer.

Other people aren't getting their hands on spare tires and killing people with them...

I'm just struggling to comprehend the arrogance of America I guess... other countries have far less tension and strife, they have better education systems, better healthcare systems, far less violent crime... but we can't learn anything from them, "damn it, this is America!".. we are going to do things OUR WAY no matter how bad the results.

Compared to the US you are:
4.7x less likely to be murdered in the UK
5.2x less likely to be murdered in the Netherlands
5.9x less likely to be murdered in Spain
4.7x less likely to be murdered in France
5.2x less likely to be murdered in Italy
5.9x less likely to be murdered in Germany
3.9x less likely to be murdered in Croatia
3.9x less likely to be murdered in Portugal
6.7x less likely to be murdered in Sweden

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So you are much much safer in any Western European Country than you are in the US - again the data is 100% clear.

Sometime look up the odds of English citizens having home invasion robberies 3 times in their lifetime. 3 times!
Criminals do not fear the old guy or woman with a cricket bat!

they also don't fear anybody with a weapon.

mass murderers go into innocent areas.

career criminals DO NOT CARE if you have a gun, RPG or a nuclear warhead, because if YOU can get it, they can too.

on top of that, your gun is useless when its more likely the criminal is gonna have the jump on you anyway.

i have a gun in my car CCW. and to be honest, i dont even know why. if somebody roles up on me while i'm stopped, by the time i reach for my gun i'm already dead.

but somebody coming at with me any other weapon, i got a reasonable shot.

it's like some of you have these crazy fantasies in your head, sometimes unreasonable, and use it as justification on having a weapon.

not to scare anybody, but if i rolled up on you, i promise you- your gun is worthless.

people talk about self defense and don't even realize that crimes happen when you least expect it. they already got the drop on you. all you're doing is reacting. more often than not, too little too late.

so i WISH i lived in a country where i might get robbed an average of 3 times.

cause its with a bat or knife. i can defend myself and possibly prevent FROM getting robbed.

what good am i to my family if i get shot? i can take a stab, and a bat to the body. a gun shot to the face, chest, or hell even arm and leg? i'm screwed.

What you and others fail to open your eyes too is when you pass laws to limit guns, you only limit the law abiding citizen because the criminal does not care about the laws.

If you ban guns or limit them you only serve to make criminals of a whole segment of otherwise law abiding citizens.

Like I said 40, I'm not the one you need to worry about. I don't want to take your gun away from you... but if the NRA (and it's supporters) aren't willing to move from where it has it's heals dug in on background checks, registrations, etc.. you are going to continue to lose support. If there was a way to reduce the ease with which a criminal can get a gun without reducing your ability to own one, then sign me up for that right away.

When you have understanding that the criminal is like a wolf among sheep you will understand his thinking and be able to spot the criminal before he acts. What you describe is a Hit. You can rarely defend against a hit because the guy is coming to kill you. He will surprise and kill you. Done deal.

The average citizen is not going to face a Hit. The criminal may be out there, looking to rob an unaware sheep. Citizens can go a long way to protecting themselves by being aware of their surroundings and aware of who is looking at them.

Walk with your head up and with confidence, look like an aware sheep, the wolf will look for easier pickings.

i didn't describe a hit, i described criminal activity.

most american's aren't aware of the car about to hit them while their jay walking. don't feed into that nonsense.

The law says commit a felony and you can not ever own a gun again. What ever happened with that law?

I thought we all agreed years back on a compromise to keep the Mentally ill away from gun ownership. What ever happened to that?

Or are you looking to punish me and my rights to prevent future, maybe someday criminals from having guns? No!

OK, now one more question:

How many inner city type environments do those other countries have? This seems to be where most violent crime seems to happen in the US.

What are their demographics compared to the US? I know that Great Britain, for example, is supposed to have a very large elderly population.

How do their largest urban centers compare to ours?

that's 3 questions YTown.

damn do i need to steal you some eyes, too?

It started out as one question ..... then, as usual, I got carried away by the moment. lol

This article is from right after the Newtown shootings and it quotes a homicide rate of 4.8 per 100K which is now lower, around 3.

Mass killings up, homicide rate down

Washington Post

By Neely Tucker December 19, 2012

The Newtown tragedy took place amid a parade of homicidal images, stories and films so steady that it almost goes unnoticed.

Kids obsess over video games in which they kill, shoot and rob their way to riches. Last season’s finale of “The Walking Dead,” AMC’s zombie-killing flesh feast, was the most-watched television episode in cable history. At the cinema, “Hitchcock” spends two hours narrating how “Psycho,” perhaps the godfather of the slasher film, came to be. On bookshelves, the big bestseller is “Gone Girl,” a novel about the disappearance of a wife, perhaps killed by her husband.

So, America, amid this cultural bloodbath, it should come as no surprise to you that we are killing each other . . . about as seldom as we ever have.


The national homicide rate for 2011 was 4.8 per 100,000 citizens — less than half of what it was in the early years of the Great Depression, when it peaked before falling precipitously before World War II. The peak in modern times of 10.2 was in 1980, as recorded by national criminal statistics.

“We’re at as low a place as we’ve been in the past 100 years,” says Randolph Roth, professor of history at Ohio State University and author of this year’s “American Homicide,” a landmark study of the history of killing in the United States. “The rate oscillates between about 5 and 9 [per 100,000], sometimes a little higher or lower, and we’re right at the bottom end of that oscillation.”

Last year’s rate was the lowest of any year since 1963, when the rate was 4.6, according to the Uniform Crime Reports compiled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Don’t relax quite yet: Americans still kill one another at a much higher rate than do citizens of other wealthy nations.

“By international standards, we never really get to ‘low,’ ” Roth says.

And, no matter what your favorite politician says about gun control or the lack of it, the homicide rate has been near stagnant or falling for 21 consecutive years — even as images of violence have proliferated, even as the stock market has soared and crashed, as political upheavals have come and gone, as drugs have waxed and waned, even as the number of high-profile mass killings like the one in Newtown has risen.

Why?

The nation’s homicides — a little more than 14,000 last year — are a separate beast from these types of slayings, historians and criminologists say.

The vast number of homicides arise from arguments, fights, drug deals and domestic disputes, most often among people who know one another. Becky Block, vice president of the American Society of Criminology and an analyst at the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority, has studied a data set of 22,000 killings in Chicago from 1965 through 2000.

“My perspective is that there’s no such thing as just homicide,” she says. “What you have is a lot of different kinds of violence — robberies, child abuse, barroom brawls, intimate-partner disputes, gangs — and some of these end in homicide and some don’t.”

Mass killings, by contrast, almost always stem from one man’s pre-suicidal outburst, often directed at strangers. The perpetrators are overwhelmingly white middle-class males, who otherwise have a fairly low rate of homicide, according to federal crime statistics.

“The overall homicide rate and these kind of mass murders run along different tracks,” says Roger Lane, professor emeritus of history at Haverford College and author of “Murder in America,” another assessment of killing across the nation’s history. “The profile of the typical killer and the typical mass murderer — these are different wellsprings of psychological motivation.”

Meanwhile, over the decades, the homicide rate goes up and down like the stock market — no one has any simple reason why — but one overall trend is as clear as it is surprising: The idea that we used to be a kinder, gentler bunch is nothing but myth.

The national rate of homicides has greatly decreased over the past 150 years or so, historians say. This bears some hedging, because there were no nationally compiled data in the 19th century, but the case studies are frightening.

“The highest murder rate in national history was between 1846 and 1887,” not including Civil War deaths, Roth says. “During Reconstruction, there were counties in Louisiana where you had 200 people per 100,000 residents killed. You’d have counties in Texas with 10,000 people and 500 people killed. In Los Angeles in the 1840s, one in every 46 people were murdered. It’s amazing how many people got killed.”

These days, people would make a movie about that.

-----------------------------------------------
The lever action rifle was invented in 1860 but most did not have or could afford such a weapon. Most were still using cap and ball revolvers or muzzle loaded rifles. In the 1840's most were using only muzzle loaded weapons. No assault weapons, no high capacity magazines and single shot muzzle loaders sucked at accuracy, and yet people were murdered at a higher rate.

The takeaway - we're not perfect but we are getting better.

This is getting too easy:

The US is 82.4% Urban

For other countries:

UK = 79.6%
Netherlands = 83.2%
Spain = 77.4%
France = 85.8%
Italy = 68.4%
Germany = 73.9%
Croatia = 57.8%
Portugal = 61.1%
Sweden = 85.2%

So in general they are about as urban as us (or a little less) - but nothing deviates by more than 20%, so it can't explain much of the difference.

Per Capita Income (US = $54,597 USD)
UK = $45,653
Netherlands = $51,373
Spain = $30,278
France = $44,538
Italy = $35,823
Germany = $47,590
Croatia = $13,494
Portugal = $22,130
Sweden = $58,491

So they are all poorer than us, except Sweden.

Fraction of Population between ages 15-44 (doing most killing?)(US = 39.9%)

Sorry, could only find this info for countries with more than 40M people

UK = 39.5%
Netherlands =
Spain = 40.9%
France = 37.7%
Italy = 37.2%
Germany = 35.6%
Croatia =
Portugal =
Sweden =

So they are about as old as us to - this couldn't account for more than 10% of the difference. We are talking about factors of 5 here.



Here's what does seem to trace the difference pretty well.

Guns per 100 people (US = 88.8) -- Note this work attempts to include both legal and illegal firearms owned by civilians (no military guns are included).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

UK = 6.6 (13.5x less than US)
Netherlands = 3.9 (22.7x less than US)
Spain = 10.4 (8.5x less than the US)
France = 31.2 (2.8x less than the US)
Italy = 11.9 (7.46x less than the US)
Germany = 30.3 (2.9x less than the US)
Croatia = 21.7 (4.09x less than the US)
Portugal = 8.5 (10.44x less than the US)
Sweden = 31.6 (2.8x less than the US)

I'd be willing to state that you're not going to be able to boil it down to a number or statistic.

The problem is one of culture - not money, location, or frequency of weapons.

America is a violent culture. Period.
We're aggressive and violent.

holy crap 1 in 9 police shootings is in error?! Wow. And that probably doesn't include all the dogs they shoot.

I thought this touched upon the real issue here. We're a society that glorifies violence as much as it used to glorify smoking in the 50's. Then wonder why people snap and go on mass killing sprees. People are quick to dive behind the First Amendment and claim it's some sort of unalienable and un-modifiable right and then quickly jump to attack the Second Amendment as if it's out-dated and serves no real purpose.

People who wonder how kids could could possibly think it's cool to dress up in trench coats, load themselves up with guns and go on a massacre in Columbine High School should go watch the Elevator Scene in the original Matrix movie. Doesn't look quite as cool anymore?

Of course the first argument people will throw up is "Well I watch all kinds of blood-soaked gore fests and *I* don't have any desire to go mow down a bunch of people in cold blood." ... Well that's the exact argument that 99.999% of gun owners can say about owning a gun.

People want to quickly point to blame the gun as if it's magically going to clean up the mental illness of this country. You can completely violate the 2nd amendment and take away every single gun everyone owns and it's only going to attempt to cure the symptoms than the cause. If you want real change you need to address both the Second and the FIRST Amendments.

Of course people don't want to give up their gratuitous gore in movies and television ...

Perhaps the fact that we have had to fight for everything we have over the centuries.

The first people from Europe starved to death.
The next got a foothold and fought the elements and Native Americans for survival.
Every inch of this land had to be cleared and plowed.
Blacks had to fight for survival of slavery and for freedom.
We fought the British for Nationhood.
The West was fought for.
Civil War.
WWI
WWII

Tends to make a people testy.

That 2% number doesn't make any sense either. There were 1527 criminals killed by civilians, but there were many many more murders by civilians. So how do you compute that number? You only count it as a civilian killing a suspect if the civilian was right... So of course he is almost always right.... Duh.

Solid, and I mean solid post. There just isn't anything more for me to say about it.

I'm actually not trying to make it easy or hard ..... just considering factors.

I have never understood they hyperbole associated with the whole gun issue.

From background checks and training we conflate common sense approaches to ownership into the end of American society.

I have come to believe that the NRA no longer interested in responsible gun ownership.

No matter how you look at it, widespread ownership of guns results in more deaths, not fewer.

That is the price of freedom... and of our ignorance.

It is difficult to face the facts as Lyuokdea presented.

But facts are facts, and I laugh every time I see this same old tired argument waged.

And I pray for those who died and will die because of our own ignorance.

j/c:

I want to give some love to my new home state....South Carolina.

I can honestly tell you that people down here are far less prejudiced than the people in Ohio.

I think the majority of the population here in SC has dealt w/this issue by using compassion and intelligence.

The good folks of SC are outraged, disappointed, and horrified by the act of a lunatic. We have come together to deal w/this tragedy as best we can.

Yes, there are exceptions as there always are, but by and large, the black and white communities have come together rather than split further apart.

I can tell you this for sure...............we want the rest of the country to get the *^$% out of our state and let us begin to heal.

There will be no riots like we saw in Ferguson here in SC. We understand the importance of living together as one society rather than trying to further the divide.

Oh..........and Al Shaprton and you white supremists......stay the hell out of our state!

stop with the high horse.

the great state of SC literally has a law that requires 2/3 vote to take the confederate flag down.

fall less prejudiced than ohio? somehow i highly doubt that. and regardless, that's relative. there's plenty of people saying racism is rampant in SC, which completely nullifies anything you're trying to say.

jc

It's not that the NRA just digs it's heels in, it also continues to push for more.

It spends millions to interfere in local elections.

It's members believe disregarding other people's values and concerns mean nothing compared to their own right to by more guns.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/22/8825135/john-oliver-australia-guns

john oliver absolutely nailed the issue with gun control.

I am talking about the "people" of SC.

I had the same ignorant misconceptions of SC that you have when I first moved down here. They were completely false.

I live here. You don't.

I will always be first and foremost an Ohio man, but I do know this............people in SC are not as prejudiced as most places in the country---at least the places I have visited.

You can believe the stupid media analysis or believe someone who lives here. Your choice.

Btw-----------where are all examples of rioting here in SC?

Swish, I could be wrong, but you seem to work very hard to PROMOTE racism. You absolutely LOVE pointing out examples of racism and seemingly DELIGHT in making al-encompasing statements about races.

Not all of us share your racist beliefs. Some of try to judge each person as an individual and do not like to make stereotypical, biased generalizations about entire groups of people.

One more time, my comments about SC were not about me. They were about the people of SC and I am impressed how they have dealt w/such a terrible, despicable, evil, ignorant, hateful act by one of their own.

once again, your feel for SC is relative. i don't live there, but i know people from the military that's from SC, and have a much different view than you do.

your experience and feel for the people isn't everybody's.

i had to learn that too. i have first hand experience in the middle east, but there's people on this board who know middle easterns that have a different point of view than i do.

it's a relative statement.

who said ANYTHING about rioting?

delight? promote? you think i liked being searched for drugs almost non stop at one point? what type of sick sociopath gets enjoyment out of battling racism?

my bad that i'm a minority trying to help people understand that just because the civil right's movement is over with that racism isn't over.

my bad that i want everybody to be treated fairly. i've said it over and over and over again on this board that i would love nothing more than to be called an american.

except that's not happening in this country. not yet anyway. i still gotta mark whether or not im latino or black on applications. i still get looked at cause im a black dude with a white wife.

so don't sit there and be some tough guy on a keyboard, acting like you know me, because you don't.

nobody has to share my beliefs. i don't give a rats butt if not one person on this board shares my beliefs.

not everybody feels the same way you do about SC, so how bout you take your own advice and shove it.

i tell them the same thing imma tell you. don't like my post?

put me on ignore.
don't read my threads
petition to have me removed from the boards.

other than that? tough luck.

Pointing out racism isn't promoting racism. What?

I think Swish sees a perspective many of us, including myself, never saw. He's allowed to comment on race as much as he pleases. He doesn't promote racism. He promotes creating critical conversation on race in this country. That's a discussion that's only prompted with tradgedies like police brutality, rioting, and situation like this.



Nope, see above.

He's allowed to criticize SC, Vers. Just because you're from SC doesn't make you the defacto authority. It'd be like you being laughed off of a steelers board for rational discussion because you're a browns fan. That isn't fair.

Swish offers quite the relevant viewpoint on these issues. He's done his job if his statements put you in realm of mental dissonance.

Do Gun Bans Reduce Violent Crime? Ask the Aussies and Brits
BY GLEN TSCHIRGI
2 years, 11 months ago
(H/T Instapundit)

Nothing original to add here, but this posting I picked up from Instapundit is well worth passing along, particularly in light of the typical, knee-jerk, Statist reactions to the horrific Aurora CO shootings:

Actually, if the Australian Bureau of Criminology can be believed, Americans would be insane to concern themselves with what non-Americans think about American gun rights.

In 2002 — five years after enacting its gun ban — the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States — where no gun-ban exists — both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America’s rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

So, if the USA follows Australia’s lead in banning guns, it should expect a 42 percent increase in violent crime, a higher percentage of murders committed with a gun, and three times more rape. One wonders if Freddy even bothered to look up the relative crime statistics.

The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations. Twenty-six percent of English citizens — roughly one-quarter of the population — have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. The United States didn’t even make the “top 10″ list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

Now all this statistical and factual information isn’t going to mean anything to Lefty’s and Statists, but it is always good to know that reality backs up the conservative position on gun rights and the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012/07/2...sies-and-brits/