DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jets, Dolphins, Eagles among teams with best offseasons so far

I don't think you can count draft choices in that.

1. Parkers mom sounds like sour grapes because they thought we would draft him at our choice. Chances are if we did she would say the samething about Cleveland as she did Miami.

2. Bradfords agent does not like Cleveland anyhow. But SB already made it known that he was not signing an extension with anybody except maybe the Eagles. So to single out us and say he didn't want us because were Cleveland is really short sighted.

3. Bridgewater talked with the Vikings long before the draft, and even said he was looking forward to playing with them. At the time I was thinking when he blew his pro day if that might be the reason, so the Vikings would draft him. Trouble is they passed him up the first time to.

I think that more people will look at Cleveland as a desirable destination if:

Pettine gets a 3rd season

Farmer gets a 3rd season

The team continues to improve this coming season.

These really are the most important factors for a lot of players. No none wants to go to a place where you have no idea who your coach is going to be next year. Stability will help Cleveland immensely.

Of course it's true ... [1] it's in print [2] it supports someone's opinion.

Which means the Jets will win 45-0.

Are you saying that NFL players are lying about where they want to play?

Try a google search. You will find all the evidence you need to ease your wonderings.

Correct.

For either team to win, the defense has to be extremely stout and the offenses have to not make mistakes.

Texans and Browns are both in less than ideal QB situations.

Everything around said QB's will need to be perfect for either Hoyer or McCown to experience success.

Agree x 100.

5 - WEATHER

Skill players, especially WRs, I can see having worries about signing here. With our QB being what it is for how long now, agreed. For defensive players like Duh, I think it's about the money and winning, and in that order.

People might scoff on what cfrs is saying, but weather was a huge determining factor in which teams players said they did not want to play in.

The top 5 least desirable places to play were:

Green Bay, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Oakland.

Obviously, franchise stability, won/loss record, ownership/Front Office were factors in determining this list, but I think one can infer that weather is also a huge factor. As evidence, please consider this blurb from an article on the subject:

Doesn't everyone consider weather a major factor when determining where they are going to live? Especially if you are going to be rich no matter where you go.

just out of curiosity... was wondering if you know offhand what the injury rate is playing in warm vers cold weather?

now that i looked what i wrote it might look like i was being a smart alec. but it was just a honest question. as in does that go into FA thinking.

I think most people do.

I was agreeing w/you.

I don't know. I might research it later, but I have been doing quite a bit of research on the Cameron/Housler thing and don't feel like doing more right now. LOL

A BIG amen to that!

Stability would be a great start to attracting FAs, but the ultimate will be getting that QB. Then it really shouldn't be much of an issue.

But without even stability we are doomed. It shouldn't even have to be a discussion. Short of the team completely quitting on Pettine, both Pettine and Farmer shouldn't just get to year 3, they should also get beyond year 3.

You know we make fun of the Bengals, and they are 10x more successful than we are. It really comes down to one thing. Stability. Can you imagine inserting a legit QB onto that team? They would be legit Super Bowl contenders.

Since QBs don't grow on trees, we need to nail down the stability side of this equation. If we can become a stable franchise with consistent coaches and systems, all it's going to take is one stroke of luck on the QB to completely turn this franchise around. Coaches and players alike get more and more comfortable the more stable things are. The less they have to learn new things, the more time they get to dedicate to mastering their craft.

I used to ride motorcycles, and once took a race course. The instructor likened the attention span to a dime. He said if you are spending most of your dime on certain things that should be second nature, you don't have enough money left over for the important things. The idea is to spend most of your attention span on the really important stuff and mastering your skill set. That is not possible when you constantly turn over your FO and coaching staff at the rate we have.

I'm a repetitive machine when it comes to this stuff so I apologize, but I am absolutely passionate about this course for the Browns. It's the right way to move forward. It's the best chance for long-term success.

dont matter. dont bother. its enough players dont want to play in cold weather. why doesnt really matter.

I know. I just didn't know the argument had to be made that people enjoy nice weather.

I think stability is huge. I agree w/you on that.

I do think that the Bengals have way more talent than we do, especially on the offensive side of the ball. They are freaking loaded. We aren't.

I am torn on Farmer. I think he has made some good moves and some terrible moves. It's his lack of understanding of the QB position that really gets to me. I don't think we EVER win w/out a good qb. That might seem shallow to some, but this league is QB driven.

Farmer's comments and moves have made me think he has absolutely no clue when it comes to QBS. I also think his evaluation of WRs is pathetic.

I am torn on this because I have liked many of Farmer's moves and I truly, truly believe in continuity. I am not sure if anyone has preached that more than I have since I first came to the boards in 2001. Maybe tab? Regardless, I am a huge believer in it.

Bottom line for me.............I am still not sure about Farmer because I think he has completely butchered the QB position. I can live w/mishandling the WR position, but man.............when you repeatedly show me you have no idea how to evaluate QBs, you make me wonder if you'll ever get it.............and if you don't get the QB, you ain't winning.

I knew you knew and felt kinda silly for making that comment, but I made it for others who only casually read and not really for you.

You know?

Wow spot on twice well said Vers.

I honestly think this is where I lose folks but to me its so damned clear when it comes to this topic its why I call it the used car deal and then compare it to the we are all on the same page line we got with PF.

Pisses me off that people can fall for a line of crap once but to do it twice, just wow.(minimize the QB)

Even so I can understand why folks don't like being reminded of their past missteps.

I see the same thing in Text, some good some bad some real bad and top of the Heep is QB.

I will say this too I honestly think the source is Flip, and Prior coming here really has my ears up. Text may not be the source but he sure as hell will get the credit/blame. He may not be as deserving as we think, if my hunch is correct......

I know this I hated the way they handled the QB spot last year and this year its 180 degrees from that so I think they did make a step forward the problem is its like they sabotaged themselves with the QB thing, its so damned weird...

I think fans are over simplifying. What did Seattle do first when they fixed their team? Didn't they fortify their defense fixing the secondary and building a blanced DL? They gave themselves some offense getting Lynch. They started out with QBs Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson before getting Russel Wilson.

People questioned Seattle's early moves. A lot of head scratching seeing who they drafted. After all and even today, who is Seattle's dominate pass rusher and outstanding LT? Who laughed when Pete traded for Whitehurst? After two super bowls Pete resolved his TE issue.

People need to take a good look at Seattle and try explaining their success. Your orthodox text book rules building a winning franchise are not there. We justify saying they got an all world QB. Yep, the very QB 32 teams passed on twice some a third.

I read, sorry I don't have a link, a statistic pointing out how teams have gone to great lengths improving their defense against the pass. Teams are using more nickle and dime packages reducing number of LBs, and teams are going smaller to get faster. Author was curious what team would be first to resort back to a run offense and if it would work. He pointed out it would be a tall order to build an OL to make it work. I made a post a little while back asking if we are about to see a trend change.

My point is Seattle went in a direction no one else did to build their team. Are the Browns?

What do you mean but the source is Flip? Source for?

I don't agree at all with this statement outside of AJ. We have a better offensive line, and I think the running backs are a wash. I'd give the slight nod to them at QB but Dalton really isn't that good. If anything I think the fact that some feel their offense is loaded proves my point about continuity. They have a had a consistent system for years. It's ten times easier to have successful drafts when you are inserting guys into stable systems with experienced players in those systems to learn from. Sanu would never be a player in Cleveland because we don't have the infrastructure that Cincy has. Cincy's drafts have not gotten better. The organization has gotten patient and stable. Fans get this mixed up all the time. It's kind of akin to fans thinking the Patriots are great drafters. Not really, but they have Tom Brady to cover the warts.



You're right. We will never win without a QB. We will also never win without some stability. We at least severely reduce our chances. If you cannot hit on the QB you at least have to build some stability to eventually insert that QB into. And you increase your chances of hitting on a QB if your organization has demonstrated stability and patience.



As hard as this may be for many, including myself, our FO will make mistakes. But we have to have some patience. It's already been proven that turning it over every two years does not work. We need to try the alternative and let these guys work through their mistakes and atone for them. The team and fans will be better in the long run for it.

I think Farmer has really grown from year 1 to year 2. They brought in smart, hardworking guys that appear to love football. No head cases. We haven't heard about any shenanigans in months since that wave of negative press. There are no reports of discontent anywhere within the organization. We haven't seen or heard from Haslam in I don't know how long. He's staying behind the scenes. There is actually a really good vibe coming out of Berea at the moment. I think Farmer, Pettine, and Haslam have all learned and grown tremendously even over the last several months. That's all you can ask for.

Doesn't mean they're perfect. My biggest gripe with Farmer is his treatment of Mack and Gipson. I just don't really get that at all. I'm not sure what he's doing there. And he'll make more mistakes. But I just think we have to give these guys time to grow into their roles. I think Haslam saw right away that Pettine might have been the best kept secret in the NFL. I am so glad we didn't wait on Quinn ...who will go the way of great coordinator to not good head coach, IMO. Pettine seems to be a natural born leader and Haslam picked up on that right away. And there was a reason Farmer was sought after. Other teams wanted this guy. There is some talent there. But to expect even talented guys to be great out of the gate isn't realistic, IMO. There's going to be good and bad, but you trust your instincts that made you hire them in the first place and ride it out.

No is the simple answer.

I hear a lot of concern for Text and I just don't see it.

He has done very well finding guys that can contribute in the later part of the draft and he has brought in some wonderful talent via UDFA. His top picks need to be better and he hasn't shown yet that he has the ability to pick out a QB, and for sure last season his lack of support for the QB was questionable at best. For sure this year they (Text and Pet) have done a total 180 in that regard and thats a huge positive.

I don't think McCown was brought here by Text, I think that was a total Flip deal. And I have said in the past this is both good and bad for Flip. Flip gets his guy (McCown) if it doesn't work out Flip is likely to get canned.

The remarks in regards to Pryor were in regards to Flip having him in Oakland and Pryor being a better QB then the ones we have here. A Joke of sorts but not to far from the truth.

My point to be clear, is that anytime a rumor or article comes up, people always use the "where there's smoke" cliche.

And now it doesn't apply apparently.

The bottom line is it's not far fetched that players don't want to come to Cleveland because of 1) the instability of the organization and 2) not being a "desirable" place to live (real or perceived). If Cleveland would start winning, #2 wouldn't be that big of an issue.

The other bottom line is if a guy really didn't want to come to Cleveland, and Cleveland drafted him anyway, he'd get on board and in the end it wouldn't end up being that big of a deal. Guys get acclimated quickly to their cities and teams. Relationships and bonds are formed. Everything else becomes noise.

j/c

I'll be the first to say that I believe continuity is one of the most valuable things you can have to build a franchise.

I'll also be the first to say that if you see the guys you hired for their respective jobs are the wrong guys, that moving forward as quickly as possible is the best solution.

I can honestly say I don't believe that continuity to this point since 1999 has been the culprit for our lack of success. I haven't seen a HC or GM that we've had since 1999 going on to do bigger or better things since they left here. I think the real problem is whoever was responsible for their hirings simply chose the wrong people for the job.

The jury is far from out on Pettine and Farmer to this point. I like everything Pettine has done pretty much to this point and my reviews on Farmer are both good and bad. Farmer made his share of mistakes as a rookie GM and certainly has it within his power to get better.

So I'm definitely in the wait and see mode. I'm also of the opinion that Farmer could use some help in the evaluation of the QB position as has been mentioned. Some of the greatest success stories I've seen in my lifetime are as much about knowing your limitations as it is trying to do it all.

I agree with everyone (with whatever your stance may be) and yes echoing the same thing.....continuity is the biggest key. Sure, in the past we may have hired some gm's or coaches who may not have been the best at their jobs.....or just did a mediocre job.
But it's all about continuity....that's what we lack and when I say this sentence, I mean this:

Now for Farmer, just like rookies, it's still to early to fully evaluate or to say he's 100% bad at whatever part of his job. He's going to make mistakes, but also he's at least gotten some (at the very least) productive players from his first draft and UDFA's. He did pretty well at free agency last year.

Now for this years draft and FA, I won't say he drafted great, good or below....but at least you could see he had a plan and what he was trying to accomplish through the draft. You could see what he wanted to do through Free Agency and also accumulating Comp picks for the future.

While I will never disagree with bringing in other people to help with evaluations or to give advice, it can only help....only drawback would be arguing over which staff or scout is correct in their evaluations. But at the same time, I hate that we are still looking for a QB, yes, it is the most important position......but at this point in time (meaning, his second offseason) I think the talk about his evaluation of the QB and skill positions is overblown. Which is why I say, we need consistency and time at the GM and Head Coach position b/c they have done well in what they have brought in so far IMO.

I'll try to use what I believe are the best two examples I can think of Tab.

Shurmer and RAC. Both of these guys simply weren't NFL HC material. I believe we could have stuck with these HC's for a decade and still never been a winning team. So to me, that would have simply been keeping them for the sake of continuity. At that juncture, I don't believe continuity would have helped solve anything and only continued our losing ways.

So IMO, you have to hire someone able and worthy of the position in the first place for continuity to pay off.

I like what I see in Pettine and I believe we'll all see his progress. If we do, that's the kind of HC where continuity pays dividends. The person you invest time in has to show as time goes on, that he has the ability at his position to learn, grow and succeed.

Many people don't have those abilities. In regards to those people, the more time you invest in them, is more time you've lost.

Yes, but theres a difference. RAC and Shurmer didn't act the part as a HC...never really showed us leadership qualities and decision making. One wanted to flip coins to pick a QB and the other was battling every week. And those are just two small examples

At least with Mangini, Chud...or even Butch I could see HC qualities. Pet shows a lot of HC qualities/abilities too


I can cutting ties quickly with the other two.

It seems like you are bolstering my point that having continuity simply for the sake of continuity makes no sense. Without having the qualities needed as a HC, continuing along that path lacks common sense and will only continue down the wrong path.




I won't really debate Mangini, Chud or Butch. What I can say is none of these guys went on to be great HC's anywhere else. At least to this point.

I agree with you about Pettine. I believe he is showing the qualities I like in a HC. It's early on in his HC career and I hope he continues to develop and grow. I think after his third season as our HC would be a time to reflect and see how he's progressing.

I always felt Butch would of been a good HC..

Had Butch the GM not gotten in the way..

After re-reading your two above posts, I agree. I basically agreeing with you, but in a different way of saying it, lol. Sorry, guess my mind wasn't fully functioning haha.

I agree, don't care to debate about the past coaches...my point was at least the few showed qualities or (flashes) something that at least showed they could do the job compared to the other two. Now doing it well...that's a different story.

Agreed with you about Pettine.



I agree with this fully, I think we could get a pretty good evaluation on him if he's progressing or not.

I think that is a problem with hiring a college Head Coach. They are so used to being in charge of everything, from the style of uniform, who gets recruited, to who gets a scholarship. They can not seem to relinquish control.

Butch was a perfect example of this.. so is Chip Kelly today.