DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Southern Pride (Confederate Flag)

Kind of like any clergy who came out on the side of gay marriage recently being plastered all over FB and social media? Yea, I find that funny too.

Kind of.. it's not really their own accord, it's to avoid being shamed in social media and the media in general by millions of self-righteous people who have no clue what they are talking about but have latched onto this cause du jour...

still their own accord.

nobody put a gun to their head and told them to remove it.

"I believe in a government that allows us to protect ourselves from blindly following the words and philosophies of Ronald Reagan."

-Clemdawg.

I'm confused about why you think all evidence of the confederacy is being removed?

The people of this country have decided it's time for it to removed from government endorsement. There are museums, T Shirts, belt buckles, hats etc that will still rock the flag.

I would be surprised if we didn't see that flag more often than we ever have in the past.

That's all good, but America has decided that our government should not legislate that it fly on government ground and that's exactly how this particular flag in SC was raised during the civil rights movement.

As far as companies refusing service to confederate flag customers? I believe conservatives are campaigning for businesses to be allowed to follow their beliefs when deciding who they will serve.

However, Amazon and a large number of other major businesses are refusing to sell it to anyone not just a particular segment of society.

I don't care about the Confederate battle flag at all. I care a lot about historical artifacts like the stained glass windows at the National Cathedral being preserved in the spirit in which they were offered - reconciliation. It is our history, whether pleasant or painful. IMO, its for the states to decide if they want to display that flag on public grounds and buildings - not Washington DC, and not public opinion from outside that state. The 10th Amendment ensures that any rights not specifically conferred to the federal government will remain the sole province of the States. But the Supreme Court pretty much kicked the 10th Amendment to the curb this past week, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised if a federal statute forbidding display of the flag anywhere comes to pass.

The Libs are like ISIS, they will tear it all down and destroy it because History flies in the face of what they preach.

I understand the sentiment of removing history from the stained glass and I can accept the idea that it's not appropriate to you, but not the idea that a court correctly follows the constitution only when it serves your political ideology.

what a very christian thing to say. /sarcasm.

I think the Rebel flag has a place in history and should be held in some esteem for what it represents:

- a time when brother fought brother over a set of ideals
- a time when blacks in slavery fought along side those that enslaved them to protect the only way of life they ever knew.
- a war that was much less about slavery and more about perceived government overreach.
- a tear in the very fabric of our nation from within it's own borders.
- Both sides being very wrong on many points but also being absolutely incapable of finding compromise. *** similar to today's government ***

This Flag represents the darkest of times in the history of the US, yet it should not be forgotten, banned and hidden; it should be a constant reminder of the greed, hate, division, misery and sadness that the positions of BOTH sides wrought-on this country at the time.

The sad part is the adoption of this flag to represent white power/hate groups. These twisted racist terrorist-like groups should be the real target of our ire. And something that should be wiped from the face of the earth.

The price paid in blood by both those who carried this flag and those who opposed it should be what this flag truly represents. And regardless of how we today feel about those sides or their individual beliefs, the lessons learned from that war have made America much stronger, much more tolerant of opposing views and ideals, much more capable of overcoming our own differences without bloodshed and last but not least - one of the greatest countries on earth.

The US Flag and what it stands for can NOT carry this meaning, the Rebel Flag however is the embodiment of these things and should always fly as a reminder of those lessons and the path to a more perfect union that we have traveled ever since.

I personally would not fly nor own any article with this flag on it as I acknowledge the hate and racism associated with it, however I do not support the banning of this flag, forgetting the history behind this flag, protecting people from the pain associated with this flag or the lessons that it embodies.

I just don't think it should be flown over statehouses. I can't imagine a federal, or state government, endorsing a flag that was used to oppress by a nation that never evolved as time went on.

Here's further text on the creators of the confederate flag. I see no mention of state's rights. Just more talk about race superiority.





Any other justification why we should proudly fly this flag?

http://mic.com/articles/121082/here-s-th...who-designed-it

the other thread got locked so i figured i put this here:

At Least 5 Predominately Black Churches Have Been Destroyed By Fire In The Past Week

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/28...kusaolp00000592

At least five predominantly black churches have caught fire in the last week, including at least three that have been the subject of arson, the Southern Poverty Law Center reports.

The string of blazes, which have occurred in four Southern states and Ohio, comes a week after nine people were gunned down at a Charleston, South Carolina, church. Dylann Roof, 21, has been charged with nine counts of homicide and possession of a firearm during commission of a violent crime.

An arsonist set fire to the College Hills Seventh Day Adventist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, on Monday. The following day, God’s Power Church of Christ in Macon, Georgia, was gutted by flames. And on Wednesday, Briar Creek Baptist Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, was deliberately set ablaze, causing more than $250,000 in damage.

Briar Creek Pastor Mannix Kinsey told a local news station he hopes the event turns out not to be a hate crime, and the culprit is "already forgiven," but he's worried about "the climate."

“We are still talking about this same issue and this is 2015,” he said. “We all have to consider what else do we need to do to actually be able to work together.”


Other churches in South Carolina and Ohio have also caught fire, though it's unclear if arsonists began the blazes.

Despite the cause, all the churches have predominately black congregations, and the SPLC has said the string of nighttime fires "may not be a coincidence." The legal advocacy organization said that even if the events are determined to be arson, it takes additional proof to classify the acts as hate crimes. Since 1956, there have been at least 91 violent attacks on black churches.

The Atlantic noted the burning of American churches dates back to before the Civil War. The crime is often racially motivated, "a highly visible attack on a core institution of the black community, often done at night, and often motivated by hate," the outlet's Emma Green wrote earlier this week.

Even if you ignore the slavery aspects, you're still left with a flag of ill-fated treason. I'm sure some history buffs can come up with instances where a nation adopted the flag of an insurrection against itself, but it's certainly an oddity.

They are protesting and calling for the removal of Confederate statues all over the South now.

What do you think about the words of the individual who made the flag, 40?

I think a good course of action would be to remove them and put them in a museum. Have them replaced with statues honoring civil rights leaders.

I think that after giving us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, maybe White folks should be allowed to have a flag as
a show of all of our appreciation. Yea, yea, a flag of their own. Thanks White people.

Civil rights leaders should have their own statues if they can get them built. They should not tear down the old ones and replace them.

I think each community should decide.

I think the Supreme Court should make it Law and force everyone to do it.

Congratulations Dylann.. your plan is working though not as you intended it. I'm sure he anticipated an immediately response from the black community, backlash, rioting, unrest in South Carolina... but none of that happened.

Fortunately (for him), the debate shifted from an actual crime (which was handled with dignity and grace by all involved) to a flag that symbolizes myriad of things to myriad of people (and was handled with anything but grace by people who didn't need to be involved).. the elites got involved, the academics, the politicians, the celebrities, foreigners, east coast, west coast, north and south.... all wanted to weigh in on this symbol and what it means to them, though I doubt most of them had given it a second thought until now... but now this is a cause du jour, something to feign indignation over... to try to set "right" before moving on to something else... welcome to the Twitter-sphere.

The flag, which to some symbolizes their racism, but to far more symbolizes a sense of the southern culture 150 years after slavery, became the issue. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the flag, to most, symbolizes independence, self-sufficiency... and a sense of rebellion against having things shoved down your throat by people who don't understand you. So when the response to this flag became about people who don't understand the south, shoving their beliefs down the throats of southerns, a more visceral reaction should have been anticipated.

If anybody burned a church for racial or any other reasons, I hope they are caught and punished in a most severe way, I have no use for those people... but to the intellectuals in NY, and CA, and England, and DC who know nothing of the south, if you try to shove your moral high ground down their throats, you are going to get a response.... the flag debate would have been much better served for later, when calmer heads could prevail.. but alas that's also not how the world works today, strike while the iron is hot, hell the left was a roll.. why not go after this too? Change the name of Ft. Bragg and Ft. Hood and other bases named after confederate generals, let's go after Ole' Miss, the Running Rebels.. hell that's almost as bad, maybe even worse than the Washington Redskins... Let's keep it rolling..

I heard John Oliver talk about it. A guy who grew up in England and moved to NYC, so obviously I value his opinion on what the flag means... state that it should be removed from government buildings but it should be encouraged as belt buckles, car decals and t-shirts to make it easier "to identify the worst people on earth"... Yea, you say things like that, even those southerners who would only passively defend the flag are going to dig their heels in and those who have more severe views are only going to get worse. I fall into the former category, as somebody who would normally passively defend the flag, but I'm starting to dig my heels in too..

I could definitely see a flag fight but most Southerners are not as racist as Northerners so a race fight won't happen. There may be a nut or two who like fire and it is up to us to catch and imprison them.

However it would not surprise me in the least if Northern Liberal leaders who moved south for the jobs, don't wake up
to find a Peppermint Pussy in a bag on their porches.

Well stated.

I posted the following on my FB and still haven't gotten an answer: If the South is so racist, why are Northerners flocking to the South in droves? And when they get here they all say "Wow! Everyone is so nice!"

I'm not so sure it is the Confederate Battle Flag.. as flown by the Armies of the Confederacy, that is the problem.. I feel the problem is what the flag was used for after the War..

The use by the Ku Klux Klan of the Confederate Naval Ensign in cross burnings and in terror campaigns throughout the South.. as the symbol of the Klan... is where the real contempt for the flag comes from. For that reason, any attempt to use the flag for "Southern Pride" fails because of the flag use by the Klan.

Perhaps Southern Pride would be best served by the "Bonnie Blue Flag," or the "Stars and Bars" (the Confederate Flag that looks similar to the Texas State Flag). Neither of these flags were appropriated by the Klan.

Well here's a question: If the criticism of the flag on the General Lee is what it was used for in the past by certain, specific, minority groups (minority in belief, not race)... why punish the people of today who are using it as a decidedly positive symbol? The overwhelming majority if not all the people I know that support flying this flag, aren't trying to bring back slavery. It truly is about "heritage, not hate" and not a one would say they view blacks as unequal.

Here we actually have a sign of progress in that people who proudly display it aren't hiding what it was used for in the past. Isn't it PROGRESS to be able to say "Here is our dark past, and yes at times this flag was part of it, but we've moved forward, past all that to a better time and this flag is symbolic of that progress"?

The biggest problem I see is that many of the people who are critical of this flag are hypocrites (not saying you are!). They talk about not stereotyping and being 'enlightened' to other cultures, yet their entire premise for banning the flag from public view is that the Southern culture is nothing more than slavery. And that is flat out incorrect.

I don't see any problem with that flag.

The Klan is a part of Southern History.. and was founded by one of the South's best General's.. Nathan Bedford Forrest. The use of the Naval Ensign/battle flag by the KKK from the late 1860s up through the 1970s made the flag a symbol of hate to many.

I like the usage of the flag in a historical context, but the usage of the flag by "Hate Groups," attempting to link themselves to the Confederacy, tends to override the issues of States Rights, Rights of Secession, and Southern Heritage.

It is why the best usage of Confederate Symbols, for Southern Pride, may be the use of Confederate Flags, other than the Naval Ensign/Battle Flag.

I like the Battle Flag... I have used it in Reenactments. I have both uniforms.. North and South.. and several flags.. a Bonnie Blue, a Stars and Bars, a Battle Flag, and a 33 as well as a 34 star Union Flag, but I can see how hate group usage of the Naval Ensign/Battle Flag continues to upset the people that were targeted by post war hate groups that used the flag as their symbol.

Klan also uses several other flags as well.
Which honestly I have no issue with the government building ban, but it has become far more reaching than that though.

The biggest challenge with the southern flag debate is that if it was that big of a deal, it should have been handled many decades ago. If the confederate battle flag had been stigmatized 100 years ago and relegated to just racist causes, there wouldn't be an issue today. But it wasn't, it was allowed to age on parallel paths with different meanings and that genie is very hard to put back in the bottle.

That is why making this historical argument (no matter how accurate) of what the guy who created it said about it or what other groups have used it or all of this information about the flag from 150 years ago is viewed as fairly irrelevant to many of the people who would defend it.

For 100 years before the confederate battle flag was created, the United States flag flew over (and accepted) slavery, oppression of women, genocide of American Indians.... and nobody calls for its removal or replacement with a symbol that better fits peoples opinions today, people accept that those things were wrong and the symbolism of the flag has changed over time. We also accept that the US flag means different things to different people, some find great pride in it, others want to burn it or walk on it because they still, to this day, believe that it is a symbol of great injustice here and around the world.

Are we going after this flag next?

It's completely OK to create a new historical moment by putting it to rest from government endorsement.

There are valid reasons for doing so.

Anybody who wants is free to fly the flag anywhere else.

No big deal.

i felt i needed to quote this.....just because

You can quote it again tomorrow if you want.

I agree with you completely. The History of the Confederacy, Reconstruction, and the Postwar South is a very interesting study. The fact that if there had been no secession, there still could have been slavery to this day, is an interesting alternate history. The war was fought primarily because of Secession, and the fact the South felt pinned in and unable to expand into the Western territories, thus maintaining their way of life politically. It is a large reason why some southerners still call the Civil War, The War of Northern aggression.

The Southern States adopted many of their "Battle Flag" State Flags and Flag memorials after Reconstruction, as an act of defiance to the "Carpet baggers" and profiteers who came south after the war and rode roughshod over the South, backed by the Army. To a large extent.. that caused part of the rise of the Klan and the "up yours" attitude of Southern Pride.

The Carpet Baggers and Reconstruction are as much a part of the Flag Argument as is the issue of slavery. It makes the conversation about the Battle Flag an interesting discussion.

I feel pretty confidant that the south would have just grown out of slavery at some point without hundreds of thousands of lives lost. But it is interesting to contemplate what that would have looked like and how it would have occurred.

yea....we'd be behind the times definitely right now if that was the case.

I'm not so sure about that. This is all hypothetical but had the south been given a little more time to realize on their own to get rid of slaves, had they simply found a more economical way to harvest their crops.. there is a chance that the whole period through the 1960s might have gone much differently, much smoother... and it's possible that we might even be ahead of where we are now. With the war, the south still felt like things were being forced on them that they didn't want, which causes resistance and that resistance persisted (and in some places still does)... just a thought.

I'm not sure how slavery could have been smoothed out eventually at all.

On the other hand it's unfair to pin all these problems on slave owners or the flag they carried.

Former slaves headed north and found racism there too. Jobs were not available or payed less. Housing was segregated as well as schools.