DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel.....continued

Jim Brown 'encouraged' by Manziel's message but figures it's boom or bust


Jarrett Bell, USA TODAY Sports 5:59 p.m. EDT June 29, 2015
link


HOLLYWOOD HILLS, Calif. — Jim Brown sees Johnny Manziel and thinks extremes.

"I believe he's going to be a star or he's going to be a bust," Brown told USA TODAY Sports of the second-year Cleveland Browns quarterback. "There's no in-between. I like Johnny. He creates action. But there's no middle ground on Johnny. He's going to be that guy, or he's probably going to be out of there. I like it that way, because they need dynamics at quarterback."

Browns coach Mike Pettine has maintained that Manziel — despite an uninspiring rookie season and an offseason stint in an alcohol treatment center — is in the running to challenge recently acquired veteran Josh McCown for the starting job.

While it seems unlikely that the Browns — who have praised Manziel's progress during the offseason — would part ways with the green quarterback this year if he doesn't win the job, Brown's point is that he doesn't see a long developmental process as the ticket for the former Heisman Trophy winner.

In one sense, Manziel could use extensive time as a backup or an abundance of trial-by-fire reps to grow. In reality, a win-fast mentality often drives decisions in the NFL.

Why boom-or-bust on Johnny Football?

"That's the nature of his personality," Brown said. "That's the history that he brought forth."

This theme can apply to the Manziel persona off-the-field. He also brought a history of a wild lifestyle.

The real game-changer, Brown senses, might have come with the more than 10 weeks earlier this year that Manziel spent in rehab, addressing issues with alcohol that were undoubtedly related to some of the off-the-field incidents the quarterback encountered.

Brown, arguably the greatest player in NFL history, reconnected with his old franchise after Jimmy Haslam purchased the team and attended OTA sessions in June. He doesn't profess to know Manziel deeply but mentioned having a few short exchanges with the quarterback and senses a positive vibe. He also realizes the added layer of scrutiny due to Manziel's high profile.

"I'm encouraged, because Johnny is addressing his situation, and that's speaking to the world," Brown said. "That message is encouraging. He's going to give himself the best chance to succeed. Now if he were still in denial, we'd have a different conversation. If he didn't go to rehab, this would be totally different."

Challenges flowing from rehab resonate with Brown through his experiences. With his Amer-I-Can Foundation, Brown has spent years working with people trying to rebound from many troubled circumstances, including drug and alcohol abuse. You'd think that he's the perfect person that Manziel could tap for advice.

"I learned a long time ago that advice is a quick trip to nowhere," Brown said. "It's the commitment that only you can make in yourself, the responsibility to assume control of yourself. What I would have said to Johnny, or would have hoped he'd do, he's doing.

"So I'd say to him, 'Your commitment to allow the world to know you want to work to change your life, I encourage and support you.' It would be that simple. I wouldn't try to impart any great wisdom on him, because it's a day-to-day process that he's got to live with."

If Manziel can succeed with his personal challenge, it could go far in determining which end of Brown's envisioned boom-or-bust extreme he will reflect as a quarterback.

In more ways than one, there's no middle ground.

A lot of people don't like the guy, but Jim is pretty honest. I remember the outrage after his comments on TRich and The Big Show. Turns out Jim was right about both those guys.

I think Jim is right again about Johnny. Boom or bust. A lot of us have said that for quite awhile.

I know a lot of posters don't like Johnny, but having yet another first round flop is gut-wrenching. It would be great if Johnny can get out there and recreate the magically performances of his past. That would be a huge benefit to the Browns....

...and that is what we all want. Right?

I'm rooting for him to succeed just because I'm sick of having to start over at the QB spot. Let's use next years first round pick on something else...

We gotta hope Manziel can play the entire season so that we have as much information as possible going into the next off season. If he doesn't give us enough of a sample size (and maybe a whole year isn't enough either) and we find ourselves in a position to draft someone we think can be "the guy" then I think we have to do so.

And I think we will be in a position to do so. Well, if he does play all year and we find ourselves in a position to draft "the guy" then we have a good idea on Manziel.

It seems that we are willing to give him the 2015 season to see how far he progresses. In any event, I believe we still draft another QB in 2016...

I think they have already answered that Mac.

If a better option comes along Johnny is history, they showed that with trying to get Bradford.

I think this season is going to turn ugly real quick, from there these guys will throw Johnny on the field and it will be sink or swim time.

Between Johnny and McCown will either swim with Johnny or he will secure his replacement in the draft.

I give it a 10% chance that I'm wrong.

They don't have to win per se with Johnny but he must show progress.

It's funny though because it sounds like the Johnny crowd is thinking that he is going to get a 2nd 1st year and I just don't think we can wait.

Anything in terms of the time that Johnny will be given hinges on McCown and I just don't see it.

From there Text will be under pressure to offer a real solution and that is when things will begin to get real ugly for him. Patience is going to be in short supply come mid season. Just watch.

It's simple, if they feel that someone in the next draft fits the bill better than Manziel, you go and get that guy and then may the best QB win.

There is gonna be some interesting prospects but there is no luck type day 1 starting jumping off the map right now. However Johnny will need to show them enough to make them believe he is the right QB for this team. We have done all we can do to help Johnny be successful. It is up to him.

It isnt the size, the arm or even the off the field stuff that is making folks nervous about whether or not he can be an NFL QB, it is the spread offense he came from, the fact that he never fully grapsed the first offensive system we gave him in year one and now he is in year 2 fresh out of rehab and a brand new system to learn. On top of that we are trying to restore his mechancis.

Johnny should be putting a tremendous amount of pressure on McCown once camp starts. This system should be a great fit for him. I thought the read option stuff was gonna flop with Johnny and wasnt the least bit surprised he sucked at it. Being an escape artist and having a lot of designed runs are two very different things. Johnny can run when he escapes the pocket but I have yet to see one of those designed runs work with him lol.

The quick swing passes to the RB and WR should be perfect for him as he has the good arm and those huge hands allowing him to get the ball out without adjusting his grip. I also believe he is a really good deep ball thrower or was in college. The rest we will have to wait and see if he can understand this offense and can adjust his game to that of an NFL QB. Learn to throw from the pocket but if things break down then become Johnny football but becoming an NFL QB should be priority #1. Please no more designed runs.

The Johnny crowd. LOL.... so tell me, how does anyone in the NFL get a 2nd first year? Oh wait that's right, Mangini got a second first year, never mind I see what you're saying now.

It could also depend on where we draft though too. I mean what if we were to finish 6-10 or 7-9 and we're not in a position to draft Connor Cook or Cardale Jones? (the big two as of right now). Part of the answer could lie with what the prospects look like next season and where we're picking. Also, what if Philip Rivers or Russell Wilson are on the market? A lot of variables could factor into next years offseason.

Yeah, I didn't spell it out, but you're right. When I said we need Manziel to play the entire year, the first step of that is getting the job. I certainly do not think it needs to be handed to him.

+1

Agree on that one whole heartily.

I for one am skeptical about all of the traits you listed as things that folks aren't nervous about, in addition to his inability grasp the offense.

And really, "huge hands"? You mean for a 5'11" dude right?

And really, "huge hands"? You mean for a 5'11" dude right?


MANZIEL – 5’11 and ¾, 207 with 9 7/8 hands.
BRIDGEWATER – 6’2 1/8, 214 with 9 ¼ hands.
BORTLES – 6’5, 232 with 9 3/8 hands.

I want him to be the guy because it would obviously solve a huge problem.

I think he's the type of QB that has to play and ad-lib – improvise if you will. His intangibles; able to escape pressure and he's got a winner's moxie that hopefully hasn't been shredded by his 2014 troubles (and please don't tell me he wasn't a winner in college).

I don't 't know what will happen with him, but I'd love to see him play well in the pre-season and steal the starting job.

Bigger hands give a quarterback a grip advantage. Drew Brees, one of the shortest starting quarterbacks in the league at 6-foot-0 and 1/2, has a hand size of 10 and 1/4 inches. Russell Wilson, all of 5-foot-11, also has a hand sixe of 10 and 1/4 inches. For perspective, our own Chris Chase, who stands 5-foot-10, has 9.5 inch hands.

I believe you are dead-on with that statement. If McCown is playing well (as I expect), Manziel rides the pine as long as we are in contention for a playoff spot. If things take a turn for the worse, bring in Manziel and find out whether or not he is the answer...

We gotta find a qb. McCown is not the guy.

I think we should see what Manziel can do. We absolutely can not go into next year's draft not knowing if we have our future qb on the roster.

Two or three more wins for a team that isn't going to make the playoffs means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I don't want to have to draft a qb w/out knowing if JM can get the job done or not. I also don't want to pass on a qb w/out knowing if JM can get the job done or not.

I say bite the bullet and find out if he has what it takes or not. It's time to end the madness.

So not even huge for 5'11" guys.

Got it.

Exactly. We cannot continue to waste time on the 'hope' of a player either. I'd say, if JF cannot beat out Josh by end season and get some NFL starts where he shows improvement (anything while comparing to his previous season should be an improvement as that was a total failure), then qb either FA or the draft becomes #1 thing to attempt to address.

We give JF one year, many and I mean many people don't even feel he's worth that, but with what we unfortunately invested in him, it only seems logical to entertain the remote chance of him turning things around.

And see, to me this is the other side to the coin. Many see it as if starting JFF would be "handing him the job". And I can see that point of view.

However, I see it much the way you do. It's not so much handing him the job as it is the team needs to see what JFF can do. Will he progress? Will he learn to make his reads? You won't get those answers by him taking second team reps in practice.

So people can look at it either of those two ways. But I think in terms of as a team these coaches need to find out what JFF is capable of before another draft approaches.

The part that scares me a little is I don't think that everyone in the organization feels like Manziel is the guy, including Pettine. I think they are grooming Manziel to be the backup and hoping he can at least be that.

I didn't understand the line in the article that stated Manziel could win the starting job. That is contradictory to everything that Pettine has said. And when Pettine speaks like that, it gives me no hope for Manziel. Pettine sees this guy EVERY day. And Dansby was just quoted as saying Manziel was able to get to his second and third reads on a few plays as if that is some big accomplishment. That should be second nature. There just have been no real endorsements from any players or media that have watched him practice this year. If anything, they are playing up McCown. It's almost as if there is a collective "give up" going on by the team and the media, IMO.

Manziel really screwed himself by the events of last year. It completely set him back. Hell, he screwed the Browns more.

It's all so frustrating. I am holding out hope that he becomes the guy, but I don't like the message we are getting from the team on his prospects to actually be the guy.

Training camp and preseason should be interesting.

yea. the coach said the same thing. along the line that he is learning to get to his second read.

I think you both will get your wish although I doubt it will feel like that for one of you in the beginning.

What I mean is that I suspect that coming out of camp, McCown will be the starter game one. But at some point, they will move to Johnny Manziel. Only way that doesn't happen is if we get a Pro Bowl year out of McCown. And I don't see that happening.

I already know he's who I thought he was...

I can see that side, too.

I can also see why we might alienate players [like Mack] if we don't have a successful season.

It's a very tough call.

I just worry about going into the 2016 draft not knowing if Johnny is the guy or not. Yeah, you can determine a lot in practice, but a guy like Johnny might just be more suited to making plays in games than running controlled plays in practice.

I really don't want to take a qb if he is the guy. On the other hand, if he isn't the guy, we absolutely need to take one.

I don't see as a playoff team and I don't think McCown is going to be around too much longer, as he is already 36.

It's a tough call, but that is why they get paid the big money.

If by some miracle, he is "the guy", and we don't know it until next off season, after McCown has retired and we draft the next "guy" isn't the end of the world.

We then have two "guys" and if necessary we can trade one.

BREAKING: CLEVELAND BROWNS SIGN BRETT FAVRE OUT OF RETIREMENT

Evil Mike Tomlin @EvilMikeTomlin
Brett Favre says he could still play in the NFL. The Browns have reportedly offered him a 7-year deal worth $90 million

http://maneatersports.sportsblog.com/pos...retirement.html

i dont know if this is legit or not but there was a tweet about it so i had to rush and get it up before anyone else.

Penalty flag - 15 yards for poor judgement...

but but i saw the tweet........

Vers, I look at it this way. His chance to prove himself is in camp and preseason. I see no way they pull McCown, unless he is horrible, just to see what they have. They did that last year to some degree, and it did not sit well with some of the veterans like Thomas.

IMO. if he can't win the job out of camp, or say by at least midseason, move on. Putting him in just to see what you got is a foolish move, and will create problems in the locker room.

If worse comes to worse... Here's a list of the potential 2016 Free Agents at QB

Chandler Harnish QB ARI
Drew Stanton QB ARI
TJ Yates QB ATL
Bryn Renner QB BAL
Matt Schaub QB BAL
Matt Simms QB BUF
Matt Cassel QB BUF
Derek Anderson QB CAR
Joe Webb QB CAR
Jimmy Clausen QB CHI
Josh Johnson QB CIN
Thaddeus Lewis QB CLE
Terrelle Pryor QB CLE
Brandon Weeden QB DAL
Zac Dysert QB DEN
Brock Osweiler QB DEN
Garrett Gilbert QB DET
Dan Orlovsky QB DET
Matt Blanchard QB GB
Scott Tolzien QB GB
Matt Hasselbeck QB IND
Chad Henne QB JAX
Tyler Bray QB KC
Chase Daniel QB KC
McLeod Bethel-Thompson QB MIA
Matt Moore QB MIA
Josh Freeman QB MIA
Mike Kafka QB MIN
Matt Flynn QB NE
Luke McCown QB NO
Eli Manning QB NYG
Ricky Stanzi QB NYG
Ryan Fitzpatrick QB NYJ
Matthew McGloin QB OAK
Christian Ponder QB OAK
Sam Bradford QB PHI
Tim Tebow QB PHI
Tajh Boyd QB PIT
Bruce Gradkowski QB PIT
Philip Rivers QB SD
Kellen Clemens QB SD
Tarvaris Jackson QB SEA
Russell Wilson QB SEA
Case Keenum QB STL
Austin Davis QB STL
Nick Foles QB STL
Charlie Whitehurst QB TEN
Colt McCoy QB WAS
Kirk Cousins QB WAS

Eli.. Bradford.. Rivers.. Wilson.. Foles. Would any of them make it to FA ?

I think we will definitely be taking a qb in 2016 probably in the 1st round. We may still not know by then if JM is the guy or not. It will depend on how much he plays this year which is predicated on how well Josh plays. Either way if we like a qb in the '16 draft I think we should take him. Josh is not the future and we will need another qb even if he is someone to develop behind JM.

We should make a strong push for Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, Luke McCown and Tim Tebow ...
We could have 2 McCowns on the team! WOW~!~!...