DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel.....continued

Some Johnny specific comments from NFL Network. Nate Burrelson made some comments (starting around 1:40) that are really interesting.

NFL Network


In all this talk about 'when should Johnny start?', or 'can he beat out McCown?', I think something that may be overlooked is that we may not have the luxury to to make that decision or to wait for him to beat out McCown. The old axiom that says the backup is only 'one play' away from being the starter can jump up and bite one in the ass putting the best laid plans of mice and men in the rear view mirror.

All it takes is for McCown to get injured in the preseason or early on in the regular season and Johnny's the starter.

The things Pettine said about not wanting Johnny to concern himself with competing for the the starting job but instead to take "baby steps" focusing only on what he has to do to get better has some merit. I think he's somehow thinking that Johnny will get his shot one way or another. In the meantime, no sense cluttering his head with a competition. Best that he competes with himself to improve.

On the idea of starting him to see what we have in him before 2016, I am torn. As you alluded to alienating players by seeming to throw the season to the wind only to determine if Johnny can be the guy is scary.

Yet, I worry too about going into 2016 not knowing if Johnny can be the guy. But I'm not as concerned about that as some are. For one, I can't see McCown playing out the whole season. I think he'll either be pulled for playing bad or at his age he'll suffer an injury. Either way it opens the door for Johnny.

If Johnny doesn't get enough game reps to answer the question of whether or not he's the guy then I don't have a problem drafting a QB high in the next draft. After all, Johnny wasn't a #1,2 or 3 draft pick. He was drafted at 22. That's low enough that the money investment is not so great that he can't be kicked to the curb, (like Weeden) or kept on as a backup if that's how it plays out.

Johnny could end up being the "bridge" QB for the new guy, OR, I'd think that between the two of them we'd have a quality starter and a quality backup. One of them would have to be "the guy".

If we drafted another QB and Johnny did turn out to be the Franchise QB we need so badly, well, that's a good problem to have.

That's my line of thinking also. The priority to select a QB early or later in the draft will depend on how Manziel progresses this year...

j/c:

This is in response to a few posts that seem to think that it's no big deal about having or not having to draft a qb in the first round.

I akin that line of thinking to not being adequately prepared for things such as a natural disaster, having a child, retirement, etc.

We absolutely cannot continue along this path of not having a qb. Not having a qb has haunted the franchise since 1999. We had one good year of qb play and that is the only year we won double digit games. We need a qb. Period.

Therefore, we would have to invest a HIGH pick on our qb next year if Johnny isn't the guy. Most seem to think the Browns are going to win 8 to 10 games. How does that translate into one of the top picks? Personally, I think we win 4 to 7 games, but that still doesn't give us one of the top picks.

We simply just cannot take a qb at our normal drafting slot and hope that either he or Johnny pans out eventually. That is the epitome of being ill-prepared.

On the other side of the coin, why waste a first round pick on a QB if Johnny is the real deal? Yeah, we'll need a backup, but on a team w/so many needs, we want to use a first round pick on a guy who is going to be the backup? That isn't intelligent.

The Browns need a plan to fix the qb position for at least a decade. It would be great if it is Johnny. I know a lot of people don't like him, but it is what is best for the Browns. But, the Browns need to find out if he is the guy. This year's team isn't making the playoffs and all the positive posts and fluff articles isn't going to change that.

If Johnny isn't the guy, the Browns are going to have to do everything in their power to move up and take the guy they covet. Is that guy going to be a sure thing? No, but you have to do everything you can to improve your odds. That is why you have flood insurance if you live by a river, stream, or ocean. It is why you have a stable home environment and secure employment before you have a child. It is why you invest your money and have a substantial nest egg before you retire. You just don't go into those things w/out being prepared and knowing exactly what assets you do have.

Well...........some people do, and that is precisely why their lives are a mess.

Cannot argue with the points in your post...

All's the Browns need to do is have McCown play just like he did last year and we are all set. If it comes to Johnny then either he pulls things together (not likely) or we are at the top of the draft. This season is going to be a tough one to endure, but I think 2-14 is a very real possibility and that hopefully will cure our QB problem.

But I agree and have said much the same thing for years, get a friggin QB and most of our problems will go away. We actually have enough talent to be very good and stack up well against most teams but the QB thing just drags us under. My great fear is will finally get a QB and the team will be either gone or will have left in frustration.

I get real pissed when I hear we will minimize the QB, yeah right.

Where in the world do you see the 2 wins??

I think Manziel will prove himself this year too. BUT I still hope that somehow we end up with Cardale Jones next year. I think he is going to be better than Big Ben. JMHO

Johnny Manziel 'needs more time,' according to Bengals defensive coordinator

Jeremy Fowler, ESPN Senior NFL Writer

CLEVELAND -- The man behind the defense that forced Johnny Manziel into a disastrous NFL starting debut says the Browns quarterback has a shot to be a productive starter and can look to Drew Brees for small-statured quarterback inspiration.

Cincinnati Bengals defensive coordinator Paul Guenther, whose defense mugged Manziel for two interceptions, three sacks and 80 passing yards allowed in a 30-0 Browns home loss, told ESPN "Honestly, I think the kid needs more time" before anyone writes him off.

The Dec. 14 game launched a downward spiral for Manziel, who left his next start at Carolina and did not play in the Browns' season finale.

The Bengals employed a strategy similar to what LSU did while Manziel was at Texas A&M -- sealing the edge and forcing him to stay in the pocket. That accentuated Manziel's 6-foot-0, 210-pound frame, but Guenther said quarterbacks at any size can learn to operate from the pocket.

"Drew Brees did it," Guenther said. "I know Drew is a little bit thicker than Johnny but about the same height. ... I don't see any reason why he can't do it up there. [Manziel] was such a high-profile guy out of college and everyone expected what he did at Texas A&M, but it's a man's game, it's a lot different, and it takes time. You have to take your lumps a little bit."

Brees is listed at 6-0, 209 pounds.

Guenther blames Manziel's Week 15 struggles on the state of the Bengals, who wanted redemption after an underwhelming 24-3 loss to the Browns on "Thursday Night Football" on Nov. 6.

The Bengals held the Browns to their first home shutout since 2009. Manziel became the first quarterback to start his first game and be shut out since Tennessee's Rusty Smith in 2010. The Bengals taunted Manziel after sacks, with defensive end Wallace Gilberry flashing Manziel's money signs in his vicinity. After the game, Gilberry said "he kind of brought that on himself." The Bengals showed Manziel "this ain't college," defensive tackle Domata Peko said.

Manziel, who is currently the Browns' No. 2 quarterback behind Josh McCown, said in a mid-June news conference that he is moving on from the celebratory money signs, hoping to focus on his play and professionalism.

"I think he has good feet, is obviously a threat to run it, and I think in the right system he can be a good player," Guenther said. "There was so much expected in his first game, and maybe some of that was self-warranted, but it was so much from the fan base that you have to let him make mistakes."

Last season, former Browns coordinator Kyle Shahanan tried to get Manziel comfortable with different looks out of the shotgun, but the quarterback wasn't ready to handle it, later calling his rookie season a "disaster" from a preparation and maturity standpoint. New coordinator John DeFilippo has said Manziel is improving his understanding of NFL offenses, such as formations and pre-snap reads. DeFilippo wants Manziel to use his athleticism on the field when warranted, he said.

Guenther recognizes that loss to the Bengals in December vacuumed all momentum from the Browns, who still had playoff hopes at 7-6.

"The stadium was packed, it was loud, and I knew we have to make sure to get on this guy early and not give him confidence," Guenther recalled. "Just keep those broken plays to a minimum."

Link

If I were Guenther I would get down on my knees and beg God to keep Johnny as the Browns starter.........

Typical pblack18707 response.

Well of course. God knows that Gunther would rather face most other QB's in the NFL than JFF!

Yeah we all know franchise QB's just magically appear every year. Heaven forbid we actually develope one.

It does help if you actually draft one who has the ingredients it takes to become one first.

As you likely know, Pit, many have the ingredients, but few know the recipe...

Five reasons the Browns should play Johnny Manziel

By Evan Massey

Heading into the 2015 NFL season, there aren’t many expectations for the Cleveland Browns to compete. They surprised the league last year for the first half of the season, but fell back to earth and ended up missing the playoffs once again. Cleveland has quite a few question marks surrounding their roster, and it all starts with the quarterback position.

Johnny Manziel was one of the Browns’ first round picks last season, and there was quite a bit of hype surrounding him potentially being the long-term franchise quarterback that Cleveland has been searching for. Josh McCown was signed this past offseason as a free agent, and is considered the front-runner to start at this point in time due to all of the struggles that Manziel has gone through over the past year.
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During his rookie year last season, Manziel struggled mightily when given playing time. He only started two regular season games, but ended up throwing for just 175 yards, no touchdowns and two interceptions. Manziel did score his first NFL touchdown on a 10-yard run as a backup to Brian Hoyer against the Buffalo Bills.

It would seem to be a shame for the Browns to not give Manziel a second chance. He did check himself into rehab which was an obvious sign that he wants to turn his career around and get rid of his off-the-field issues. Cleveland has nothing to lose by putting him out on the field for the 2015 season either.

What five reasons can be given to support the idea that Manziel should play this year for the Browns?

1. Give the Young Quarterback a Second Chance

While it is very easy for a team to get frustrated with a talented young player that is struggling, the Browns have to give Manziel a second chance this season. There is no question that he came into last year unprepared, but he worked to get his off-the-field issues in check this offseason and still has plenty of talent. Sitting him on the bench for his second season would be a big mistake, and every player deserves a second chance.

2. Nothing to Lose

Some would see this point as the Browns giving up on the season, but it is exactly the opposite of that. McCown may be a decent quarterback, but he doesn’t have anywhere close to the type of talent that it takes to lead a team to the playoffs. Manziel may have his flaws and might look shaky to this point in his career, but he does have the natural playmaking ability that the Browns will need to make any noise in the NFL this season.

3. Don’t Waste a First Round Pick

Giving up on Manziel after his rookie season would be admitting that they completely wasted their first round pick. It is way too early to give up on a player that they knew would be a work in progress when they drafted him. Cleveland has never been known for being all that patient or good at developing young players, but this is one that they can’t afford to mess up.

4. Manziel’s Raw Potential Needs Playing Time to Develop

One of the best ways to develop a young player, is to throw him out on the field and let him play and figure things out. Manziel has been a winner throughout his entire football career, and simply needs to figure out how to adjust his game to the NFL style of play. Playing time is the only way to figure out how to adjust his game, and he desperately needs the Browns’ trust.

5. Hope for the Future

After seeing the poor performance that Manziel put out on the field last season, there isn’t a lot of hope surrounding him from the Browns organization. That being said, there can’t be much hope in the 35-year-old McCown either. At least Manziel gives them a chance of being a long-term option, and he certainly has more natural football talent than McCown could ever hope to have at this point in his career.

All of that being said, the Browns and Manziel need to get strapped in for what is expected to be a wild season. It would be wise for the Browns to give him a full season to prove himself rather than starting the veteran. Manziel knows that he won’t get a third chance from the franchise, but the Browns have to give him a fair shot as well.

link http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/five-reasons-the-browns-should-play-johnny-manziel/ar-AAcwMkZ

Pulling for Johnny, but it will be interesting competition with Terrelle Pryor having a similar skillet and experience in DeFilippo's offense. Flip brought out Pryor's best performance...hmmm.

Interesting article that explains Pryor was set up for failure with the Raiders:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2037649-what-went-wrong-for-terrelle-pryor-in-oakland

And you stating your opinion doesn't make it fact

Gee, are you a detective?

Everyone wants a plug in QB. They don't have time to see if he can actually fix what he screwed up last year.

Playing Manzeil just to see what we got is a move only a fool would try.

...or a coach who knows he's at the end of his rope.

Yup, I agree...

Ok board who wanted Johnny to play last year?

Your all fools, and I didn't say it....

I don't think you should play any player regardless of position until they are prepared to play and have success.

On one hand I want him to play because McCown isn't going to do any better.

On the other you still don't want to ruin him though, its important to at least have some success.

On the other he has been here for a full year plus and he has to show something and if he doesn't he sets the table for us to draft his replacement.

Given his performance last year is it time for him to play? I think it is or will be regardless. McCown if he is the starter will get the treatment from the dawg pound and by week 5 at the latest even the folks who think he should sit will be calling for him to play, just like they did last year.

For me I have pretty much given up on the kid, so would I play him? Yes I would, sink or swim. I view it as having nothing to lose and everything to possibly gain. But the pick I already wrote off so whats the big deal. It's lose with McCown or maybe Johnny becomes something. But for sure IMO we can't go into next season without some answers. This year is a throw away season either way, that can't linger into next year.

I don't really agree w/some of the points made in the article, but I think there is value in playing JM this year.

Heck, we could say:

Only a fool would think playing McCown this year is going to help this team reach the playoffs and/or its future progress.

So many people are buying into the pre-season fluff statements about McCown, but he is who he is. I bet the perception of him will be markedly different come October or November.

I think it would be a mistake going into next year's draft not knowing if Johnny is the guy or not. We already blew one draft on the qb position and correctly abstained this year, but we sure as heck can't ignore it again if Johnny isn't the guy.

I know this..........McCown is not the long-term answer.

I can easily agree with the premise of what you are saying. The only opposite point I would make is that we are starting anew...again...and don't really have the system down enough to give a newbie like JM a fighting chance. An experienced guy like McCown is just what we need when THE guy isn't already known and sitting on our side. IMO

Hopefully McCown is a viable stop-gap guy while the kinks get worked out of the offense. I think he will not be the weakest link while the full 11 guys on the field get it worked out. Once/if/when he DOES become the weakest link of the 11, then I see what JM has to offer...but not until then.

If Hoyer would have gotten a half dozen more, well-timed first downs last year, JM would have never seen the field. We'd know even less about him than we do now.

Agreed. I don't believe that you will find anyone who would dispute that. His age alone rules out any long term potential. Whether JM is the answer or not, I still expect us to draft a QB next year. The only question may be where we want to select him and whether we need to "sellout" to move up...

True at some point you have to grab that franchise QB.

I don't want to go into the 2016 draft without having a body of work by Manziel upon which to evaluate him fairly. It all depends what people mean by "stop-gap" or "bridge QB". If playing McCown gets you 5, 6, or even 7 wins as opposed to less wins from Manziel, may as well play Manziel.

Here is a fact ... I do not think this year's Browns sniffs the playoffs.

Evan Massey



The guy who tweets out crap. I have no faith in anything that Bozo says especially when he proves he knows nothing with this lame article.

This year and last are two seperate situations. As a rookie first round pick, and the team struggling, it was more of a necessity. This year is totally different. They know what they have gotten from him in the past. Now he is at a point where it must be prove yourself in practice or ride the pine.

I don't think anyone thinks McCown is able to get us to the playoffs. That said, it don't mean he can't.

As for the progress of the team I disagree. A veteran like McCown can very much help the future progress of the team. He has knowledge of the offense, and a relationship to the new OC. He possesses good leadership skills and work ethic. How he helps the younger players with the offense in practice, indeed helps them for the future.

I don't know if he can translate his experience to the field, but one things for sure, he knows how to run an offense. I agree he has not proven to be a top flight QB, but I believe he is competent enough to play.

Johnny on the other hand has showed nothing to say he is able to play competently. He may well benefit from McCown's presence, but ultimately he has got to show massive improvement for me to even consider him playing.

Fixed it for you, Cap. All due apologies...

j/c

And in other ralated news......

Josh McCown turns 36 years old today.

Happy birthday Josh!

This is ludicrous to me. I am not that curious. I agree he needs to play to prove he has improved. I am not for throwing him out there, other than injury or other necessity ( I admit it is a real possibility with McKown), out of curiosity.

It must be presumed by these advocates that there is some point or criterion where JM on the field has made it or not. How many losses to document he is not any answer as our starter? How many wins or what measure of success locks him down as The Man?

We seem to argue for and against him and his role and future (or lack thereof) as Browns QB and leader. I guess that for me, I would like to now where the posters are setting the bar. Starter regardless of losses or quality of play? Bust even if he wins a few? My point is when he sees the field, and I hope he plays well, JFF will be a mixed bag. He has to have success of sorts to document not just growth, but improvement as well. When the debates and opinions stop and the game is live, he needs to meet and beat certain standards. If he does not, some serious notions about where to improve must be forthcoming.