DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... And so it begins

Need to pray for the United States of America. We did not learn anything from the past. The Roman Empire fell from within thru perversion. We are heading in that same direction.

Christianity became the state religion around the time Rome fell.

If by "perversion" you mean a string of military losses, an unstable economy predicated on slave labor, overexpansion, overspending, government corruption, the separation of the empire into two factions, and the mass migration of the Huns, then I agree with you.

This thread has convinced me.

I'm "coming out".

I - rockyhilldawg - am Cleveland Homosportsfansual.

With a transsport vesturement fetish, a tri-sport identification and a full gainer with a one and a half twist.

translation - I'm an Indians, Cavs and Browns fan, I got the apparel to prove it and I flip for them.

I'm glad you untwisted that for us, rocky...

Why? What is they never went "all the way" before getting married?

What can I say. To me you know a whole lot of non practising social clubs that call themselves Christians but don't live the way the bible teaches because it conflicts with what would make their life easy.

I don't have to banish myself to practise God's word. The Amish are free to live in isolation if that is what they want. I prefer to live where I can teach and educate those that are lost. I have been a licensed minister since I was 17, I've been to seminary, and I am 38 years old. That's 21 years of preaching God's good word. If the Bible doesn't say it then I don't preach it. Plain and simple. If you don't like that take it up with the author. I won't selective leave out the bits of it that you don't like or make you or me uncomfortable.

I don't think we need to be saints but we need to try hard to please our Lord before anything or anyone else.

I thought you were once a school teacher? How did you balance being a school teacher and a minister?

Do you not understand that there are other people that do not follow the Christian religion, or at least your version of it. Do you understand that if you allow unfettered practice of a particular version of Christianity that you would also have to allow that same unfettered practice of other religions, such as the Islamists that wish to institute Sharia Law? In your opinion, the institution of Sharia Law just freedom of religion.

This is why the Supreme Court of the United States ruled the way that they did in the 1870's in regards to the First Amendment.



I agree, one can still be opposed to something but still provide service to that person in some fashion. Baking a cake for a gay wedding doesn't indicate that you support gay marriage. Do Christian-owned companies that hire drug users, adulterers, rapists, etc., support those things?

Fair question. I have mostly done evangelical preaching. That means I have gone to lot of different churches as a guest preacher. I've also been hired by many churches to come in and evaluate if they are doing what they are supposed to be doing they way they are supposed to be doing it. I enjoy getting to know lots of different people and experiencing how they do things. I don't always agree with how they might do it but usually the intentions are good so I enjoy seeing other helping others. I also enjoy coming to a church that is in trouble and helping them get back on the right path and start to flourish again.

Church activities don't really interfere with school activities. Once in a while there might be an issue on Wednesdays but often events are not scheduled then because of conflicts for many people not just for me.

Lately I just teach English privately through Skype because I have a hard time walking since my accident. Thus I have more time to be long winded on these forums sometimes ^^

How would you feel if you were the owner of a company, and someone from the KKK (with no doubt about who there were) wanted to not only purchase whatever you sell, but also have you come on site, deliver, and set up whatever it is you sell?

What about for a group that advocates man/child "love"?

How would you feel about having your delivery van on site, setting up whatever your product is ..... delivered with a message you find abhorrent ..... ?

Do you think that people would associate your presence with support? I would almost bet real money that if you were faced with a situation like that, you would decline to do something that would cause others to associate your name with a cause you find morally reprehensible.

I agree with you max to a point. The difference would be in what kind of cake decorations they want and if they want participation in the wedding or not. If I were the gay couple I would look for the baker that supports gays or at least accepts them rather than force service from someone who doesn't want my business.

I don't see why a Christian company wouldn't hire those kind of people to give them a second chance in life. People can't change if you don't give them a chance and the number one way to give a chance is to have a job. You can't save everyone though so if they didn't try to change for the better then it's time to let them go. If they are trying to change though why wouldn't you help them?

It's only the unrepentant that one should avoid dealings with because until they regret their actions and seek change then they wont change no matter how much you try to help them.

Well, considering that there doesn't seem to be a KKK-Home Depot, a Man/Child Love-Giant Eagle, or a Westboro Baptist Church Roto Rooter, there's apparently plenty of businesses that already do this. Are you suggesting that the businesses that supply services to these organizations support their stances? My guess is that they don't because I've never seen a specific statement as to their support of these organizations. Yet, people in these organizations and the organizations themselves still require the same things that any other person or organization would need to function.

There is an often quoted yet poorly cited quote attributed to Michael Jordan when asked why he didn't support a North Carolina Democratic nominee for the US Senate in the early 90's. He stated something to the effect that 'Republicans buy sneakers too.'

Random question, but where does spending the Lord's day watching rapists, murderers and wife beaters pummel each other rank on the Sin-O-Meter? Is that more or less of an issue than making baked goods for homosexuals?

YT, it doesn't matter. Racists and pedophiles are not protected classes by the USA or the state of Oregon.

I am asking about the moral aspect.

If a person owned, for instance, a stage building company, and the KKK or a man/child "love" organization wanted to hire them to bring all of their equipment, trucks, and soon, in to build stages for such an organization's rally ..... would they?

Max, would you?

My brother in law is also a licensed evangelical minister and during our discussions he states there is nothing in the bible that indicates that gays, when compared to murderers or men who beat their wives, deserve less respect.

You ARE leaving out selective bits of the bible. This is about your soul and how you have CHOSEN one particular group, who in YOUR mind are sinners, to discriminate against. Deny their HUMAN rights.

To claim these people have CHOSEN to be abominations in the face of extreme violence and social suicide is so incredibly abominable that I'm sure with reflection some day you can teach yourself that you need to end this type of sin that gives you permission to harm other humans who have done absolutely no harm to others, while they themselves have been attacked.

With all due respect if you want this nation to be allowed to discriminate based on YOUR religious beliefs and the writings of male authors centuries ago, who you have CHOSEN to believe represent a divinity, then by your own principles you MUST consider yourself a sinner. You have CHOSEN NOT to concern yourself about ACTUAL sinners when you respectfully provide them a service at the same time you CHOOSE to deny harmless humans the very same service.

If you don't want to banish yourself then your choices are to be an evangelical business man who only serves non-sinners period, or stop being a bigot.

A man/child organization would only want to rent a stage if they desired to be arrested.

The KKK chooses to be a terrorist group, who preacher hate under the protection of the first amendment.

The same protection others are using to preach hatred of gays. If I'm now mistaken both groups preach that particular hate.

But why? I don't see the relevance to this situation. You are talking about a moral question when this is a legal question.

Just replying to the original post here...

I can't help but wonder (and I'm just speculating) if there's more to this story than what the fine folks over at Faux News are reporting?

For instance...
Maybe only one of the women went in and ordered the cake, signed the contract, etc. Then, when it was a day before the wedding, the baker calls to ask about putting the little Bride and Groom on top...then found out it was a Bride/Bride lesbian wedding and cancelled at the last moment? They broke the contract, and didn't deliver a cake and there was no time to get another made. Having gone through the hassles of wedding planning myself, I think this would cause great stress and emotional pain/devastation.

Then suddenly this makes more sense and I think the lawsuit is COMPLETELY justified. Ok, maybe not $135K worth...but when was the last time a lawsuit sounded reasonable?

My guess is that Fox is just playing the "Christian persecution" game here to get their install base riled up without laying out ALL of the facts surrounding this. There is nothing in this article that states the timelines of what happened.

If this is just the case of someone breaking off the deal at the last second, then it really doesn't matter if it was done for religious reasons or not.

I thought I answered it in my previous post, but OK.

Are they doing anything illegal in using my stage building company or using their "performance" to perform an illegal activity? If not, then as long as they held up their end of the contract and I am able to perform the job, yes. I don't have to advertise that I performed this job or provided them with anything.

Like I said above, this happens on a daily basis already. There is no KKK-version of Target, no man/boy love Wendy's, etc. The people that join hate groups still participate in life and require the same goods and services that we need to get by in life.

In my chosen profession, I have to deal with people that have different views than my own and at times, those individuals have even broken the law in some fashion or have threatened to harm someone for one reason or another. I still provide services and proper support to that person to guide them to make more positive choices resulting in positive outcomes for that individual. Does that mean that I support their actions or their message? Not at all. But just because someone's beliefs run contrary to my own doesn't mean that I cannot still perform my job duties.

Havent read all pages so apologize if I'm missing any insight brought up.

At first read of the issue, I thought it was ridiculous. That the bakers have the right to bake for who they wish for and there's plenty of others that will gladly take the business.

However, the post above by CleveSteve totally put it in perspective for me. Public businesses must serve the public- regardless of what people make up that public. It should be understood that if you have a public business that you must serve people equally.

The religious aspect makes it sticky but discrimination is discrimination and we can't accept just one without opening the door for all.

I will say, however, that the fine is preposterous and does not fit the "crime".

Does making and delivering a wedding cake for a Same sex couples wedding make the Baker less Christian?

Does a car salesman become less christian If a Gay/lesbian couple walk into a car dealer to buy a car and he refuses to sell them one?

My guess is that what makes them less "Christian" is the act of judging people.

I'm not for or against same sex marriage. What I am is SURE that it's none of my business.

Those groups have the Constitutional right to speak, and assemble ..... just as the rest of us do. They are revolting, disgusting,and reprehensible, yet they have the Constitutional right to free speech.

Can you,as a business owner, enforce your morality against them, and if so, why? (from a moral aspect)

Like Chick-fil-A's business did after they got in hot water over hiring gays? They had their best few months ever and are still packed on a daily basis.

A lot of the things that were promised as "it will never come to that" are going to happen. Just as some bakers and event facilities have said we would rather not have a part in gay marriages, from what I know, each one has been successfully sued for their religious beliefs... churches are next. That is the next logical target, to force churches to host and perform gay marriages, even if they don't want to. And all of the same arguments that have been used to force bakeries and other private business to go against their beliefs will be used.

I can hear it already, "If you don't like your church being forced to perform gay marriages, don't go to it."

The perversion of history by you and others is one reason we haven't learned a thing. Get your facts straight.

The truth about Christianity and the loss of traditional values could have actually contributed to the collapse of the Roman Empire......

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-reasons-why-rome-fell.
"The decline of Rome dovetailed with the spread of Christianity, and some have argued that the rise of a new faith helped contribute to the empire’s fall. The Edict of Milan legalized Christianity in 313, and it later became the state religion in 380. These decrees ended centuries of persecution, but they may have also eroded the traditional Roman values system. Christianity displaced the polytheistic Roman religion, which viewed the emperor as having a divine status, and also shifted focus away from the glory of the state and onto a sole deity. Meanwhile, popes and other church eladers took an increased role in political affairs, further complicating governance. The 18th-century historian Edward Gibbon was the most famous proponent of this theory, but his take has since been widely criticized. While the spread of Christianity may have played a small role in curbing Roman civic virtue, most scholars now argue that its influence paled in comparison to military, economic and administrative factors."

Honestly his series on Rome is a great bed read. But to summarise his thoughts he said that Christianity's pacifism led to the destruction of Rome's military.

Already happening: http://www.christianpost.com/news/idaho-...eddings-128325/

Well that didn't take long.

While I don't necessarily agree with them being fined or jailed, this isn't a Church at all. It's actually a public wedding Chapel. In the article you posted, it plainly calls their business the "Hitching Post Wedding Chapel". Which would seem to indicate it's a wedding chapel open to the public.

I'm not sure that will change anyone's view, however I simply wanted to point out that nobody actually sued a Church in this case.

Correct.

However, they ARE ordained Christian ministers. But, they DO run a "for profit" wedding chapel.

The point is: Christian ministers in Idaho now run the risk of fines and/or jail time for not performing certain marriages. What's the next step? See, we were told this wouldn't happen. And, truthfully, it hasn't on a large scale. Yet.

What's the next step?

Yea, both the KKK and the christian gay bashers are protected under the first amendment, as well as me.

Since you're asking from a moral aspect, declining to promote chosen hate speech is, by far, no where near the morally reprehensible act of declining humans their God and government given civil rights.

I'm no lawyer so maybe you're right that my business would not be able to decline people who have chosen to destroy the lives of others.

The next step is for these mercenary ministers to get out of the "Hitching" business and back into the tax-exempt churches.

I don't know what the next step will be Arch. I do know there is a difference in having a public business and being a Church. I know one is for profit and as such is a tax paying business bound by law. The other is a tax exempt religion that has protected religious freedoms.

I suppose one could say they use the sanctity of marriage as a business which may not be all the glorious of a thing to do in the eyes of the Lord. I feel a lot of Christians believe marriage should be performed in a church.

I believe it boils down to the fact that if you have a public business, you must conform to the laws of the land.

I also agree that within every group in society you have a fringe element of people within it. People on the radical extremes of things. I don't believe you can base your beliefs or feelings about any topic based on that radical fringe.

For now.

The American Psychiatric Institute already changed the classification of pedophilia from a "disorder" to a "sexual orientation".. then they got a lot of heat and backtracked and said what they meant was "sexual interest"...

Either way, let's take the edge off the stigmatization of pedophiles and work our way toward normalizing it.

I can understand your sentiment, I just don't see where the legal precedent is for what you're describing. Outside of places like Vegas chapels, or some for-profit shotgun wedding type service, I don't see where the courts could compel a church to marry anyone and everyone.

I'm not a legal expert so I don't see it either, but if I had to guess it will go something like this... if they are going to discriminate, then they should no longer receive financial benefits such as their tax exempt status... (ie. Boy Scouts)

So the federal government will do to churches what they have done to states for a long time, hold the purse strings over their head of either go broke or do as we say.

Before I go any further, let me clearly state: I am NOT anti gay marriage. Okay?

It wasn't all that long ago gays couldn't get married and we were told "it'll never happen". Then some states changed, and it happened. Then (just recently) the S.C. said all states HAVE to honor gay marriage, but, we were told, churches and pastors would not have to perform the ceremony. That would never happen.

And, in a weeks time, we find out Christian pastors (that yes, run a "for profit" wedding chapel) have been told they need to perform said ceremony or face fines and/or jail time.

And yet you say you don't see where churches would be forced to, in the future, perform gay wedding ceremonies? Really?

It used to be up to states to set DUI laws. It still is. However, the fed. gov't. came along and said "you're going with OUR limit on BAC, or we won't send you highway money."

Now, were the states "forced" to follow along? No. But, follow the money. The fed. gov't. WILL take your tax money - and if you don't abide by their rules, you won't get it back.

Imagine - a week from now, a year from now.......the fed. gov't. says to churches "hey, you don't have to perform gay marriages. It's your choice. But, if you don't, you'll lose your tax exempt status."

But, you can't see where churches may be forced into performing gay marriages in the future?

And for anyone that has read much about me over the last few years, you'll know my religion, my thoughts, my family situation, etc. I'm not "pro" gay marriage, I'm not "anti" gay marriage. But for you to say churches will never be forced to perform ceremonies is hardly convincing, knowing how the fed. gov't. works.

I just wanted to clarify Arch, I'm not saying that won't happen at some point in the future. I just thought the premise pointed out in this thread was that a Christian church had been forced to do so in this example. I just pointed out that wasn't the case...... yet.