DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Brown's Future...

Don't you dare apologize... Sorry for your boy he is a fine a young man as I have ever met.

Don't ever apologize for the personal stuff.

+1... sorry for your loss Tab

Love this post (perhaps the best you have ever put up, pblack). I'm very sorry for your loss, eo; it's never easy...

Don't worry eo... I promise your dog will be in heaven waiting for you.

Sorry for your loss Eotab, I think I cried more when my Dog that I raised from a pup died than I did when my mother died. I loved my mom but she died a very slow horrible death thanks to cigarette smoke. My dog died because she was so excited that granma was coming home that she ran out the door and through the radio collar fence(I will NEVER own another electric dog fence) right in front of the bus. We all cried our eyes out.

sorry to hear that eo ... remember good memories

so sorry to hear Eo

Sorry to hear about this Eo.

You didn't hijack it. The thread had too much bickering anyway.

It's tough losing anything you love. I talked to a guy who had a fire destroy his house. It was a nice house w/fine furnishings. You know what he missed the most? The family pictures that he had accumulated over the years. He and his wife would never be able to recapture all those precious moments.

I suppose it is yet another life lesson: Cherish what you have while you have it, because it can be gone in an instant.

Oh tab, I am on an Emily Dickinson kick. Here you go:

If I Can Stop One Heart From Breaking

If I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain.

yea. for some reason people couldnt grasp 3 year down the road. players like JT and kruger wont be on the roster then. they are thinking draft picks right now and not realizing it takes 4 or 5 years before a player comes into there prime.

You are right about this, but I like to think this actually could benefit us in that these guys will go all out when they do get a crack. Outside the QB position and associated politics, this coaching staff so far has shown these guys that if you come to work out, learn your craft, and put in the effort, they WILL give you an opportunity. I think that's why we saw so many rookies an UDFA's contribute last season.

I'm inclined to agree with Ytown's prediction , but in fairness, I guess m only real criticism of it is that it takes the success of those rookies and UDFA's from last year and forms the basis for the expectations of this years crop of rookies and UDFA's.

Is that a reasonable expectation? I don't know to be honest. It's possible we just happened to get lucky and it was not much more than coincidence we landed those guys. On the flip side, it could be a result of the coaching style/system that is in place. I guess the only real way to tell either way is to compare a few (pre)seasons.

If you said "Alright DevilDawg! Tell me right now which you believe it to be! You HAVE to pick one now or I'll nuke Heinz Stadium!"...
...I'd probably pretend not to hear you

... but seriously, and granted there isn't a lot to support this opinion yet, but I think getting those kinds of contributions is more so a result of the coaching system. Last year they were criticized for bringing in a few guys with character issues. If things are to be believed, it appears that character was a much bigger consideration this past draft. I think character is what will give us that edge.

Well, if the consensus is the best this team can do is plod along to 2-6 wins 'minimizing the Qb position' with a 12 year veteran Qb who has never had any success, then the answer is right in front of us.

Qb is the only guy touching the ball every play, who distributes the ball and ultimately determines the success of the offense. No one is ever going to the playoffs 'minimizing the Qb position' unless the rest of their roster is MUCH better than the rest of the league. The browns roster is a LONG way from being able to make that claim.

This regime will all be run out of town soon limping along with this offensive (pun intended) philosophy.

So quit trying to cram square pegs in round holes just to try to get 6 wins instead of 2. You have a 1st round draft pick Qb. You KNOW he can do certain things really well if you set things up for his skill set. Set it up for him and let it ride. You may still only get 2-6 wins, but at least it will be exciting. Probably some huge flameouts. Probably some incredible wins. And more important than just exciting, you might watch it light a spark and really become something priceless.

Most won't agree w/you, but playing McCown all year just to win 4-7 games is pretty stupid. Gotta see what we have in Johnny.

One thought nobody really touched is they play both QBs each week. They tried it a little last year. If they are undervaluing, it is an option.

I often wonder why teams never really try. If you're weak at QB, at the very least you make the defense prepare for two. I know QBs are not in favor, but what play maker wants to platoon? In Cleveland's case, it maybe the right card to play. It is obvious McCown isn't on any long term plan. Working Manziel into the picture slowly might be just the thing. I know...I know Bugs in dreamland again!!

But honestly, is there any point in putting Johnny out there if he has yet to show some degree of proficiency in what he is being asked to do? He had no business sniffing the field last year. But I will state, to be fair to Johnny, no one outside of Berea knows how proficient he is with Flip's offense, so I'm not going to say he sucks.

But I just can't get on board with this notion to put him in there just to "see what we got" for no other reason than he was a 1st Rd pick. There are 52 other players and positions that need to be evaluated too. My impression is that while McCown doesn't have the best history in terms of ability, he likely provides more in terms of stability at the position than Johnny at this point. If he can show at least as much ability to command and execute our offense, absolutely put him in. But if he can't or isn't quite there yet, then putting him in serves no purpose.

In the interests of constructive discussion, let me ask you and others who feel Johhny should play to see what we have in him:

If Pet comes out and says that Johhny starts Week 1 to see what he can do this year, what does a successful Johhny Manziel 2015 season look like to you? How well does he have to play that would make you guys feel that we don't need to look for a top flight QB in next years draft (or even FA)?

I am not drawing a line in the sand and saying he absolutely has to play a lot this year. We discussed this earlier [not sure if it was this thread or another] and I admitted that it was a very tough call.

On one hand, you almost have to see what you have because you have to go get [probably by trading up] a QB if JM proves to be dawg crap. If he shows signs of being the guys, it would be stupid to move up and lose even more draft choices for a backup qb.

On the other hand, you risk alienating some of your vets because they think might be tanking the season.

We also have to consider that he isn't even close to being ready to see the field in a meaningful capacity.

I just feel that we gotta find the answer this year because getting a qb who lead your team for years is essential in the NFL. I also think that we have almost no shot at the playoffs and no shot at making the Super Bowl. I doubt we have a winning record. Why play McCown to win 4-7 games. I understand that some of you think we are going to win 9, 10, or 11 games and that would make you reluctant to play Johnny. I just can't see that happening.

Regarding to how well does Johnny have to play so we don't go after a top-flight qb: I don't put numbers on these things, meaning I am not going to list completion percentage, yards, TDs, Interceptions, etc. What I would be evaluating is how does he handle himself in the huddle and on the field? Does he make plays that keep drives alive? Does he offset his mistakes by making enough big plays? Do we put points up? Do we win some games. Are we competitive? Do we see potential for growth?

Johnny may be one of those guys who is better in games than in practice. He has that make-up. Then again, we sure didn't see it last year in his brief time on the field.

I think the bottom line is this: Even though many fans don't like him, the best thing for the Cleveland Browns is if Johnny is the guy. I believe that he needs to get enough playing time this year to determine if he is the guy or not.

Taking a look at the thread title, it is a reminder that Josh McCown is certainly not the future of the Browns.

It seems pretty clear that the coaches are thinking the 'let it play out' approach. That is a big mistake.

Manziel is a better option than McCown , even if he's not 'the guy'. Even in whatever vanilla system they have in mind.

But for manziel to have a chance to really flourish he needs a system put in place and practiced all off season to fit his abilities. Even last year, there were plays to be had out of that bad scheme if people stayed on their blocks another half second, didn't get downfield early, and the wr's stayed with the play.

By waiting it out you get nothing. Just ensuring that when he does get in he is less comfortable and less prepared.

I don't see any downside of setting up the table correctly, rolling the dice, and letting this one ride.

Last year and so far this year the only option on offense that would fit Johnnys abilities would be a ONE READ then take off running offense that won't work in the NFL. Until he can learn to read a defense, make the necessary adjustments AND find his 2nd and at least 3rd options on passing plays he should not even be sniffing the field.

I thought EXACTLY the same way LAST year when Hoyer was playing some of the very worst QB play I have ever witnessed. . . . And then we got to see Johnny on the field and I thought to myself ... Now I know why the coaches didn't play him. He was worse than Hoyer.

I don't want to see Johnny in there "just because" - I want to see whichever QB has a chance to win games whether he's 38, 48 or whatever. If Johnny can't beat out McCown in camp - sit his backside on the bench.

I have to agree with you Vers. I don't see how it accomplishes anything going into next season with yet again huge question marks at the QB position. We need to know whether we have a guy with the potential to move forward with or not.

I stick by my contention that if JM can not beat out McCown then we have our answer on whether he is the QB of the future or not.

Yes, light up many things...

It's not about 1 fluff piece. It about O'Connell being a better QB coach over Loggins. It's about not having a O coordinator who for what ever the reason was at odds with other members of the team. It's about McCown being better than Hoyer.

I won't have to get beck to you. It will be evident fairly early on we are going to be a much better offensive team.

Talent overall maybe... QB play-action skills questionable and not determined... And the latter will determine the ceiling of the former.



Debatable. Offense may hamper that chance for the defense.




That is why most are not hopeful.

Manziel is a better option than McCown based on what exactly? My info on the OTA's and such is pretty limited, but from what I gathered so far Manziel hasn't done quite enough to yet challenge McCown for #1 yet. He may by the end of Preseason, who knows, but that's 100% pure speculation. People keep bringing up the fact that McCown has been in the league 12 years.. yeah, he has been in the league 12 years for some reason right? Ok, so he's a journeyman, but how many players who have had more potential than he, actually flamed out and are out of the league in a couple seasons?

Hey man, I know you are a big Manziel fan, and I'm not trying to knock that or take that away from you. I just don't think the team should be bending over backwards as much as some might be coming across as, just to get him on the field.

As long as he's a Brown, I really do hope he becomes the kind of player you believe he is. I just happen to be looking at it from the perspective of development of the whole team is more important than the development of one player, even if he is the QB.

First off, thank you for an even keeled reply.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense and I would agree that really the only true sense of how good a player is, is what he does on Game Day (because that's when it counts). And maybe Johnny IS a better game player than practice player, but can a QB get away with that? Other positions can, but the QB? I'm just not so sure about that to be honest.

I'd also agree that its not something you can base solely on his record. A lot of it has to do with the "eye test"... is he making his reads, the right reads, is he getting the ball where it needs to be...

But these are also the same things that can be seen in practice too. I'm not suggesting he has to master the O scheme before getting on the field, but he has to demonstrate a level of proficiency with it first.

Personally I believe that IF McCown can play at an average level, I don't think a record in the area of .500 is unreasonable to achieve. Like you said, we're not going to the Super Bowl and not likely even the playoffs, but .500 is the road to consistency. IMO that is more important than Johhny Manziel.

How can you say O'Connell is a better OC than Loggins? What prior experience as an OC would indicate that?

Shanny was not at odds w/the players or the coaching staff. His issues came from guys in the FO sticking their noses into areas they had no business in.

How is McCown better than Hoyer?

You are entitled to your opinions, but you probably shouldn't state those opinions in such a factual manner.

What do you mean? Everything on this board is poster opinion.

Damn near everything I have ever posted on this board in simply my opinion, and I have posted more than a few opinions on this board.

I think we will will win 10 games. You think 4-5. WTF....why do you state your opinion in such a factual manner?



Just saying, my friend.

Hey, everything I say s fact ... until proved otherwise.

As far as Manziel, IMHO, he is not going to get a "real shot" until he shows that he can handle the pressure, and is willing to put in the work necessary.(big reach there, huh? ) I say that as of right now, but let's face it .... despite having a great OL, we have not had a QB start, and finish the same season since ..... when Couch? The odds are that he will start at least a couple of games sometime this coming the season. He will get a chance to show that he has grasped things well enough to be a real option, or not.

You people saying manziel is better than Josh is just mind boggling. All JF has going for him is that he's younger. JF's play, the real important factor, gave or provided no such evidence, at all,to support saying he's a better option.

Jmo