DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns WR Corp.

He's had questionable hands at times, and his diminutive frame makes him susceptible to injury, but as a receiver, I think he has gotten better each year and does pose a legitimate deep threat. He was clutch last year against the Titans but if I'm being honest with myself, I have to admit that he doesn't see the field that much as a WR, his PR average has plummeted, and I do believe he will have a hard time making the roster.

I agree. Benji is just a guy who is fast.

Last year he took a big jump as a wr but his return skills sucked ... It'll be interesting to see what happens with him

Maybe so but the D still has to account for him if he goes long. He may just catch one of those passes and stretch the D.

I would guess that 80 percent of the balls that he caught are outside of the numbers, or after a play has broken down with time.

Calling Benjamin "diminutive" is being charitable...

I don't discount that. No doubt it counts for something.

I just think he is a bubble player and if he doesn't continue to make strides, he is the odd man out.

A big part of that is how many WR we end up keeping.

Right now, I'd say Bowe, Hartline, Hawkins, Gabriel, and Mayle are sure things. That's five. How many more receivers are we going to keep? If it's six, Benji might have a problem. If it's 7, he probably sticks, but 7 seems like a high number to me.

As for his ability to return, that plays in his favor. Maybe he becomes the special team coaches pick, but those picks are usually guys who can tackle since we do have other guys on the team who can return kicks

You have very similar opinions to me regarding the WR position. I don’t believe that your receivers don’t have to be good, but I maintain that they don’t have to have elite ability to be successful within an offense.

There are a lot of little things that go into being a solid WR such as route running ability (key to a QB to know his guy is going to be where he should be with the right depth etc.). Good to great hands (this can’t be emphasized enough but often is overlooked – we have been through the ringer with poor hands guys). Blocking within the scheme or downfield after the catch (generally the prima donnas don’t do this well or put in the effort). Having good depth to keep guys fresh (the Browns rotated receivers a lot last year before Gordon and I look for it even more this year). Guys that are versatile in what they can do within the offense, meaning not just a slot or not just an X. Lastly, if you’re a team with good depth at WR, you will need some special team’s participation from at least two or three guys.

Bowe, Hartline and Hawk are not going to be asked to do any specials, for example, but most likely everyone else that makes the roster will.

Gabriel is a lock for the roster, but he has also worked hard at punt returns. Benji is well within Tabor and Pett’s plans as a PR guy two years removed from the ACL. People forget this guy was lighting things up returning punts before the ACL blew back in 2013. He also is a guy who can take the lid off the defense.

Pett and O’Neil like to keep a lot of DBs, and given the depth of the entire defense I don’t see us keeping any more than five wideouts. Six is a possibility, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Mayle may not be a guy you can hide on the PS either, which will make this very difficult for the staff. These are the problems team’s face once they start getting better and the roster continually improves. Good stuff, and injuries during camp will come into play also. Burleson could still play last year, but he couldn’t get off the bike with the hammy. That is what did him in, which was probably for the best since Gabriel got his opportunity.

I never have thought WRs were really important. In fact, I was sick of us drafting so many of them. However, the game has changed. WRs are more important than they used to be.

Our WRs and TEs are weak. They do not scare anyone. Combine that w/a terrible situation at QB, and teams will be able to crowd the LOS and slow down our running game.

This offense is really weak.

Until they prove differently you may be correct. I took the liberty of adding a word to your post in bold above.

The wildcard in this O will have to be our O-line. If they are as good as we hope they will be, it will mask a lot of problems. If the O-line is anything less than what we hope, it could get very ugly.

O-line isn't gonna mask terrible skill position players which is what we have. Our team is a complete 180 of the Indianapolis Colts.

Terrible? Now THAT'S a reach.

I'm confused here.

I'm not picking on you. I keep hearing your argument. I do agree we need better, but how come teams like Cincy win without all those ingredients?

In comparison with the Bengals, all Browns really need is an A.J. Green prototype. Otherwise, what does Cincy have that is far superior? OL? RBs? TEs? WR's other than Green? Note I said "superior." If you compare starters, I think you'll find Bengals and Browns are pretty even. IMO, Cincy's advantage is experience most of those guys been in the system for several years.

Let's switch it to Atlanta. What does the Browns need to add to be as effective as Atlanta's offense? Wait a minute Browns had a better record.

In the end, what are you wishing the Browns do?

IMO, I think fans keep driving the Browns should look like this team because they are successful. Yet, they don't look at other teams and see that is not the magic ticket. In the end, does it not really boil down to experience and consistency? I will goes as far to say it really doesn't matter the scheme. Having the right talent and experience within a scheme wins games. Oh well, that is my two cents worth!

They also have Andy Dalton. Average at best but miles apart from what we have.

Miles apart? Dalton is the only reason I have hope for McCown and/or Manziel!

How on this green earth can Cincy win with Dalton is rather spectacular in of itself. There is good talent on that offense, but nothing you would consider league leading other than Green. It is really a slam against Cleveland. They made it work.

Yep.

Cincy's O has a pretty good OL...one special skill player...a complimentary pair of good-not-great RBs and a guy who - one day - very well may grow up to be McCown.

Sounds like us minus the ONE special skill player.

Well there has to be a reason they make the playoffs the last two years while we wallow in mediocrity at best. Dalton makes a lot of mistakes, but when he's hot, he's hot.

It's certainly not because their OL or RB's are so much better yet they consistently score more points on the average than we do. I'll let you figure out why since you're so sure Dalton is a complete bum. I'd say he's average at best but yes, I think that's much better than what we have.

Dalton is a bum, and he's rarely what I would categorize as hot.

Cincy is tough defensively and play Pitt and Balt really well. The reason? Same HC, mostly same coaching staff, consistent message, consistent systems over a number of years.

I don't think people realize all the little things that become second nature that you don't need to focus on when you have continuity. It's a huge benefit to a football team.

Lack of a QB is a our #1 enemy. Lack of continuity is our #2 enemy. I read so many posts on here where people just don't get it. Between Grossi and the fans, they will give their all to run this regime out of town. Then the next one. Then the one after that. Then at some point we might hit on a QB, and the new coaching staff and FO that are here at the time will be hailed as geniuses. LOL.

Hold on there Cowboy.

Yes, Dalton is a bum. Sorry if belittling Dalton offends you. There is no way Dalton is head and shoulders above any QB Browns had these past 15 years. I give Cincy full credit for being able to make it work. Cleveland should take note.

The answer to your mediocrity dilemma is quite elementary. You keep bringing in a whole new group of players instead of building. They've established a defensive group. Now they need to do it to the offense. New receivers and QB every year does nothing. Dalton makes an interesting debate whether a stud QB is needed to win.

As you know, there is no easy way taking zero talent and making competitive in one or two years. If Browns want to fall back into obscurity and butt of the NFL, they'll fire the FO and coaching staff.

Cincinnati isn't chump change.

They have a great defense, a great running game and great WR's.

I'd prefer Brandon Weeden over Andy Dalton though.

1. My issue with the Browns Wrs is that they are the weakest collectively on a TD per catch ratio in the entire NFL AS A GROUP.
You need WRS that are a threat to score.

2. Dalton is a good barometer on just how bad the Browns QBS have been since 99.
Dalton has done something that 4 times that no other Browns QB done since 1999. Go to the playoffs.
Throw for 30 plus TDS PASSES in a season.

3. The Browns should have kicked the tires on Reggie Wayne his resume is so much better than Bowe\Hartline.

4. The Browns are lacking that WR With size and be able to hit that 2nd gear

When comparing the Browns and Bengals the real difference is the FO stability and the continuity represented by Marvin Lewis. If I can see it hopefully the Browns do too.

Why in the world would you pick the Bengals to make that argument?

--While Dalton is NOT the guy to take them to the promised land, he is far superior to McCown. No way is it even reasonable to compare the two.

--You simply cannot just dismiss having Green that easy by saying: "other than Green, ..." LOL. He is a stud. One of the best in the league. Sanu is better than anyone we have. They let Hawkins walk because they had better WRs. Gresham is way more talented than any of our TEs. Hill and Benard have proven more than any of our RBs. You don't remember Hill throwing our defenders to the ground like rag dolls last year?

Then, you bring up Atlanta. Did you forget about Matt Ryan, Julio Jones, and the fact that they had Tony Gonzalez for a long time? Are you being serious?

Other than a few homers on this board, no one across the country is going to say that the Browns have better skill players on offense than the Bengals and Falcons.

In fact, there is an article that is on this board, and I think I even posted part of it on this VERY thread, where our offensive skill positions are all rated as the worst--or amongst the very worst--in the entire NFL!

Now, you can act like I am crazy or feign confusion, but the illogical argument belongs to you, my friend.

Falcons have Roddy White too

So much talk about this WR core, and it's ongoing.

The reality of it is, if we had Norv Turner calling plays still, I'd be freaking out like some of you. We are not going to be the pass first and pass often team though. If we are, well then it's going to be a brutal season observing this offense.

Oh I agree. We will pass first if teams want to load up the box. play calling 101.

One could hope people like Hawkins, Gabriel and even Hartline have the "moves" to shake single man coverage.

Gresham is still a FA that I believe we kicked the tires on before signing Doogie.

Rankings regarding our skill positions are not going to be a good barometer of how effective they are because they are basically no names. How many folks outside of Cleveland even know who Gabriel is? How many think Duke is going to be a threat out of the backfield and how many are truly giving our oline credit for being one of the league’s best? Most national folks are hung up on Dallas’ line because, well, they are Dallas and we are Cleveland.

The Bengals tried to keep Hawk but we had the coin to spare and they didn’t. Sanu is also not better than all of our receivers, not even close.

I would not be shocked at all if McCown has a better season than Dalton.

looked to me like bugs was being facetious about Atlanta... they have a competent QB and offensive weapons but still had a bad season. It's not a really compelling point to me but I don't think he was trying to say our skill position players were on-par with them.

1. This is a totally bogus, false statistic. It's not an indicator of anything, it is simply a result with too many variables in it to actually credit the player with anything substantive.


2. Dalton is a mediocre QB, but he is CONSISTENT with being mediocre. It's really quite amazing, but we saw last season just how much mediocre play can elevate a team. When we got at least that level of play, things started to come together. We just lacked consistency in the second half of the season.

3. To-may-to, To-mah-to

4. We have guys that fit this, we just don't have proven guys.

While I believe you know I'm not content with our WR's, this FO did address my biggest concern which was acquiring some bigger targets. With the additions of Hartline and Bowe I believe we actually have the size make up that was missing last year in terms of outside WR's.

WR corps, y'all.

I get it.

You voiced your opinions and that is fine, but I completely disagree w/your evaluations.

They are a perfect example of team with a less than par QB who wins games.



Dalton better than McCown? I can think of much better things to debate. If you want to say better then McCown, OK, I'll buy it...superior? I'll just say you and I won't come near agreeing.



Playing with Dalton Green is grossly under utilized. He is a stud. He can run perfect routes and catch every pass, but he needs talent at QB to make it really work. Gresham no longer plays for the Bengals. Eifert is their man. Sanu is not even Bengals second best receiver. He is their red zone guy. He disappeared last year when Marvin Jones was hurt. I'm a little surprised Bengals parted with Hawkins instead of Sanu. Hawkins and Jones are equal. Bengals couldn't pay everyone, and Jones is few inches taller. As I stated, Cincy's RBs have the years, so it is hard comparing to Cleveland. I believe the potential is there to match.



You missed my point. If Browns were to go in the same direction as Atlanta, meaning getting stud receivers, talented QB, and neglecting defense and OL it does not produce a winning team. I believe since Gonzalez came and went they were in the playoffs once. If I am not mistaken, I thought they last their only playoff game too. You do remember the debates on the other board about the grave mistake it was trading the Jones draft pick? In the end, neither team capitalized on that trade.



I would be foolish saying this very thing.



Oh contraire my friend. I took two teams. Cincy, who wins football games with a sub-par QB. Atlanta, who struggle making the playoffs having both a stud QB and receivers.

Restating my point. I don't think there is a clear cut formula, i.e. get a stud QB and receiver, and magic happens. Teams must have a clear plan with specific schemes and personality requirements. Cincy is a prime example. Coach Lewis went through a lot sh_t years putting those systems in place.

To answer your other question, no, I'm by no means comparing Cleveland with either Atlanta or Cincinnati.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...ly-fast-dolphin

Unless you happen to be Brian Hartline's mother, there's no way you thought the Miami Dolphins wideout would be leading the NFL in receiving entering Week 6.
Darlington: Heart to Hartline
Miami's Brian Hartline is the NFL's leading receiver. Jeff Darlington chronicles Hartline's painful path to glory. More ...

But that's exactly what's happened. Hartline has 514 receiving yards, one ahead of Denver's Demaryius Thomas, and is averaging 17.7 yards per catch. This is All-Pro-type production.

Hartline has piled up that yardage with his ability to get behind defenses, exactly the type of trait the Dolphins supposedly lost at the position when they traded Brandon Marshall to the Chicago Bears.

As it turns out, the fourth-year pro has serious speed.

"Shhh," he recently said, via The Palm Beach Post. "Thanks for ruining it."

You can guess where this is headed. Dolphins teammate Davone Bess was asked if Hartline's speed was overlooked because he's white.

"Yeah, man," he said. "Definitely."

"He can run," Bess added, echoing what Greg Jennings said about Green Bay Packers teammate Jordy Nelson last season. "That's good that they sleep on him, because come game time, he can open up on them."

Ryan Tannehill is throwing passes to Hartline, but the now-quarterback remembers being perceived as "deceptively fast" when he was a wide receiver for Texas A&M.

"I've had that label before, too," Tannehill said. "It's just kind of a stigma that comes with it."

While an outsider might be surprised by Hartline's speed, we can't imagine opponents don't see it when they study game tape. Black or white, the guy can play.

I actually did mean 'core' as everyone thinks we need that elite, one-hitter and killer sidekick to be able to pass the ball and because we clearly don't, then our WR group as a whole is questioned.

Heck, I'd take a bag full of solid potatoes instead of a bag of just a handful of great potatoes and the rest crap...

I was upset we didn't select that heavy hitter in the draft, the DeVante Parker or even Perrimen in which each were available, but... with how I envision our offense is going to operate - I don't think we are as bad as, I at least, thought initially. These people should all see single coverage and I think a lot of times, there will be no over the top help cause everyone is going to be dialed in our running attack.

JMO

You guys allow your homerism to make you nonsensical.

Sheesh, we go through this crap every year and every year you guys are wrong and then turn around and act like others are the nonsensical ones.

Amazing. Truly amazing.