DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Another Day, Another Mass Shooting

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/24/us/louisiana-theater-shooting/

2 dead, 11 wounded, because they wanted to see a movie. It just breaks your heart.

this is getting weird and sad

Another Day, Another Mass Shooting, at another gun free zone.

Are we really going to make this into a gun thread? Rise above the norm, and figure out something else to gain from this tragic event. The whole "guns would have stopped this/banning guns would have stopped this" narrative solves nothing.

We have a serious cultural problem that transcends whether or not somebody can get or already has a gun... Figuring out how to reduce the possibility that people like this have access to guns is one thing, figuring out why people seem to want to open fire on innocent sitting ducks is quite different.

We just had a quintuple murder, knives and hatchets. No guns.

Crazy or hate will always find a way.

Agreed. To an extent.

What's your answer to the problem?

More laws? It should be well proven that laws don't stop bad people.

Disarm America? It simply couldn't ever happen.

More laws? It's already illegal to murder. It's illegal to commit a crime. In Ohio, using a gun in the act of a crime adds 7 years to any sentence a person may get for the crime committed. (I believe it's 7 years.)

What is the answer?

We can't ban guns, we can't stop people from breaking the laws on the book. Cops rarely prevent crime. So what's the answer? Not being snarky - I'm asking.


But, I'll also ask - how many people died Thursday night in OTHER gun crimes? In Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus, LA, New York, etc.

Why do these "mass" shootings occur in gun free zones?

I have some answers for the gun free zone shootings.....but what about all the other shootings.

Trust me - if you can come up with an answer, you'll be a country hero. (national hero)

The man was mentally ill. I think that's as good of a place as any to start. I don't know what the answer is, but I can say with certainty that it's a big part of the problem. Some people fall through the cracks, and some were known about, but it was left unaddressed. This situation seems like the latter. There are no shortage of people in his life stepping forward and saying they aren't surprised in the least.

The much more important question is, why do they occur in the US with 10x the frequency that they happen in other developed countries?

They should make it against the law for mentally ill people to possess a gun!

Oh yea, that already is a law. Hmmmm.

I guess all we can do is hold the funerals and comfort the living, pray for our society, wonder why these things happen, then move along.

Nobody will like this comment, but sometimes that is all there is to do.

I think the first part involved categorizing these shootings. You get unruly police shooting individuals, crazy individuals shooting crowds for no reasons, gang violence, domestic violence, and lots of other types of shootings.

We need to break down why people misuse firearms in these ways. Some restrictions need to remain in place, and the whole gun show loophole issue is another animal in itself. But, I'm interested in finding why these shootings happen.

Let's start categorizing, and finding what motivates these shooters to commit heinous acts.

No need to spend money on a study.

People shoot other people for 1 of 2 reasons: They are immediately mad, so the shoot. OR, they plan it out ahead of time - be it for fame, notoriety, or just because they can and want. (for the most part, without telling anyone about it - they may leave clues, but so often those clues aren't obvious until after the fact).


If we're worried about mass shootings, why are we not worried about the drug shootings? The drive by shootings.

I would love to see a stat on shootings in the U.S. broken down into "gang/drug related" vs. all other shootings.

J/C

He and his family moved into a house in Phenix City, in 2005, and that year, his wife made a domestic violence complaint against him, but it did not lead to an arrest, Sheriff Taylor said. The next year, Mr. Houser applied for a permit to carry a concealed pistol, but the application was denied by the sheriff’s office; Alabama, however, does not require a permit or license to buy or own a handgun.

“The reason for the denial was we had the report of the domestic violence against him, and in ‘89 or '90, he was arrested for an arson case in Columbus, Ga.,” which did not result in conviction, Sheriff Taylor said.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/25/us/...0&referrer=

Herein lies the danger of not all states being in the same page.

His wife hid all his guns away because she thought he was NUTS.

The shooter at the other theater with the orange hair, yea, looked NUTS to me.

That crazy looking young man who shot up that school, NUTS.

Mcveigh, NUTS.

I think I have discovered a pattern here! They were all White...

How come nobody makes a thread about some of the innocent teens that get shot up in chicago?

That requires honest uncomfortable conversations about poverty, race, and economic mobility. 90% of the population in this country wants nothing to do with any of that

i've noticed this stuff only get talked about when some people in the burbs get caught up.

RIP to the victims, nobody deserves to get popped trying to watch a movie.

but yea....guns only get talked or initiated in threads/media when out in the rural/suburbs gets affected.

A violent and/or traumatic upbringing (often additionally to having no father) leads to violent behavior later in life.

Just study the lives of serial killers or your everyday gang member. Their lives growing up are atrocious and they end up nuts / violent.

Mass shooting on the whole statistically aren't very common compared to the day to day shootings and muggings in the America. They make better headlines and feel more threatening to people who don't live in dangerous cities.

People killing other people is a mental health issue. With gangs / lower income areas you need to factor in economic opportunity, education, single parenthood etc. But it remains largely a mental health issue.

I'd need to do some googling to see what has proven effective in reducing violence. I imagine youth activities, job training, and parenting classes for single mothers are the most effective preventions.

Gang violence really isn't the result of mental illness. Gang violence happens because of lack of economic opportunity for troubled youths.

I've sat and talked with gang members. They were upfront as to what it offered them. Gangs offer a "family" for those who don't have a traditional family. The concept is good, but their only source of income deals with illegal activities. The violence happens when one gang encroaches on another gang, power struggles, or similar issues.

I suppose it depends on how you define mental illness. They certainly are far less deranged than these mass shooters and serial killers.

Disruption of the family is a root cause for both whether we quibble about the mental illness aspect or not.

I'm a big fan of parenting classes and offering alternatives to gang life for inner city youths if possible. My uncle spent most of his career doing that. I'm not sure if I'll break into it as a career or just be charitable but it seems like a good direction to go in improving people's lives.

Did the gang members you spoke to have any ideas on how they could have improved their lives or what could have prevented their gang membership?

yo how come people keep saying "in a gun free zone" like the majority of shootings happen there? the majority of shootings happen where anybody can carry guns.

i mean, since we're so use to using extremes, shouldn't we let every country get a nuke, so that the world is a safer place?

So, it's not necessarily "education" - it's more "this is the example I was given, and that's what I follow"?

Who says "family" doesn't matter"? It does. But, we aren't allowed to discuss that.

I think one other part of it is working a job is.....dang - it's a job. You have to show up, on time, willing and ready to work. Gang banging is easy compared to putting in 8 hours a day. (it's not safer, mind you - but it's damn easier.)

Again, I hate to do the "I have a friend" thing - but I do. His company cannot find people willing to show up and work 8 hours a day, AND have the opportunity for up to 20 hours per week in overtime, starting at $12 an hour. OT would be $18 an hour.

That's $840 a week - IF you worked the ot.

And trust me - the cost of living here isn't anything compared to a city.

Plus, the wage is the "starting" wage. The $12 an hour isn't what you'd be making after 1 year. Provided you show up and do your job.

However, it requires "work" And for some reason it seems "work ethic" is frowned upon by too many.

Heck, my daughter will be driving in 6 months. She'll need a car. Plus insurance will go up roughly $150 a month once she gets her license.

I'm really close to taking this guy up on his offer of letting me put in 10 to as many hours as I want. I do okay in my business - but dang - I hate to see money sitting on the table that no one wants. Even at 10 hours a week - that's an extra $120 a week - $480 a month.

Ideas like how quality schools make them value education (goes far beyond money), equal footing in today's world (they understand how their up against institutionalized racism), more immediate incentives to doing the right thing (this is a world of daily survival), and truly seeing the dreams of Dr. King and the latter ideas of Malcolm X truly realized.

The inner-city of Toledo taught me tons about real life for those no one ever talks about. I'm thankful for the experience that I had in educating these young individuals. They taught me just as much as I taught them.

well, i grew up in a two parent home. loved my parents.

but they were struggling so bad at one point, i almost went to the gangs to try to help out with bills....at 14 years old.

what you're not adding into the equation is that a lot of people in the city have no viable means of travel. the rta buses are somewhat consistent in the city. getting out to the burbs or further is a crap shoot sometimes.

it's funny, companies require reliable transportation, but you kinda need a job in order to have reliable transportation.

you're severely oversimplifying the "job" thing. i remember in HS there was this 35 year old black dude working at McDonalds. had a degree. couldn't find a decent job.

the fact that you think the majority problem is "work" and "work ethic" is a slap in the face to a lot of people.

We're allowed to discuss that family matters, but no one discusses it in the correct way. The cycle of poverty is completely generational. Saying "oh, it's because they have awful parents" is such a copout. You or I don't understand what their parents went through in prior years.

Yes, we need to grow and trust others. That doesn't mean we shouldn't show empathy and call others lazy and deadbeats. (Not directed at you, Arch. It's just commonalities I see whenever people talk about parents in the inner-city.)

Let me cite one small, micro example of what I'm talking about.

A kid from Toledo - due to the terrible home life, became a foster child. From Toledo out the the rural n.w. Ohio area. It was a back and forth thing - his first time moving to "near" here was when he was 5. At times, he'd spend 2 years at a time here. Other times, it was 6 months.

They called us (as we were good friends - went to church together, our families got together quite often - we swam in his pool, vacationed together)...but, they called us salt and pepper. I was as blond as a person could be, his hair was as black as could be.

He played the system very well as he aged. Then he got popped for drugs. Spent a few years in the pen. Took classes, got out, got married, had 2 kids.......but he moved back to Toledo. He saw what was left of his friends making more money than him. They were selling, banging......and he went back to it. He didn't see the need for putting in 8-10 hours a day when he could make as much selling for just a few hours a week.

Busted again. More time in the pen. Got out, moved to Florida for a clean start. He's now serving 15 years, no parole - because the "easy" money was selling. Actually getting a job and working was frowned upon by his hood friends.

It's simple DC. As a society we have kicked God to the curb. Untill we spend a little more time listining to Gods word and trying to live the life, evil will continue to grow.


And this isn't about being Christian or any other religion. It's about being respectful, loving, and following the basic laws of God. The growing majority don't do that any more.

Hell, now we are harvesting body parts. Sorry, that isn't right. Until we start to walk the line, it is going to become chaos.


JMO

You can be a moral and upstanding human being without subscribing to a theological system.

Your planned parenthood video turned out to be another hastily edited video much like the pimp and prostitute routine. Please research the facts, Peen.

The shooter was a religious zealot who identified with the Westboro Baptist Church and believed God spoke to him directly.

It's not just inner cities where "thug life" exists. On one hand, I think it's been celebrated too much. Kids seem to relish it, for some reason.

Just a few weeks ago, at my daughter's softball game - I'm walking and a kid pops up and gives me crap. His parents are: a nurse, and a v.p. of a bank. They are friends of ours.

He tries to intimidate people any chance he gets - but he knew me, and was just giving me a hard time. I took his comment (about cornhole) and said "I'll beat you anytime, anywhere. I did, and I will." And bam! 4 of his friends were around me wanting to fight.........."what you say to T? Bet you won't say that in a minute."

At a freaking ball park. Wanna be gangsters. In Wauseon Ohio.

"Okay. Are you guys serious?" That's all I said.

It's not just a cycle of poverty. It's not just poverty. (although that's probably a large part)......it's the "tough guy image". The "power" image. The whole "look how tough I am" image.

This is heartbreaking. I see it more as choices made than anything else.

Like I said, it wasn't so much about a religion. All people can choose to be moral. I get that.



As for the other, we disagree. IMO any abotion is morally wrong.


I agree some can be justified, thus I am not totally against abortion.

My prayers and condolences to the families of those killed in thsi attack.

That was one of the first things that jumped out at me. Evidently the guy lad a well established history of mental illness. How we put a gun, "legally", into the hands of such a person is beyond me.

But you made it specifically about a departure from God, as if to imply that a lack of God was the problem. Had you chose the word "morals" over "God", I would've concurred. And the shooter was a religious zealot. He ranted about sexual deviants, immorality, sinners, etc. Now, that's not to taint a belief in God or paint him as the poster child of faith. He very easily could've been an atheist who loathed the Tea Party and the 1%, or maybe just an angry loser who lost his girl. But I agree with Rocket that its not right to act as if a lack of God is the problem. Plenty of wonderful people live their lives and help others with a complete lack of God in their days.

He applied for proper licenses and was denied because of his past. He bought it at a pawn shop. I am a proponent of the Second Amendment and an owner of multiple guns, but I have no qualms in saying that getting approved for gun ownership should come with red tape akin to getting approved for a sizable loan at a bank. I know some will not like that comment, and a large part of me agrees with them. Because nuts will get guns, legal or not. But at least take the precaution. I am very aware of the tyranny of government, and why #2 is in place. But this is 2015, it's not 1776. You could have the baddest gun with black talon bullets, and you're not going to overthrow the government. If things got dystopian, the freedom fighters would find a way to get their guns, just like the nuts and criminals do. I am against gun bans or limits of purchase, I am in favor of more stringent policies in terms of obtaining the privilege to own one (or many). You shouldn't be able to walk into a flea market or pawn shop and buy one.

A lack of God is the problem. I just don't define God in to a narrow test tube.


As I said before, no doubt that one can be moral without God as their becon. I just maintain that most who don't have God in their life, can't..

I could just as easily maintain that those who have God in their lives are equally incapable of moral behavior. We would both be painting with a rake. You and I both probably pour $2k per a year into overseas conflicts that are fueled by people who not only have God in their life, but are driven by him. Have faith in God, Yahweh, Mohammed, nothing. I don't really care. What kind of man are you at the end of the day? And in my experience, there's not much difference any which way you shake it. A man is a man. There are factors that drive him where he finds himself, but at the end of the day he is ultimately responsible. And I've seen nothing in my life to say whether God or No God effects that to a point where one is more correct than the other. Let me ask you, when did we begin to "lack" God in America? Post-slavery? Post-women's suffrage? Post-civil rights movement? When was the exact moment in American history that we abandoned God to the point where it caused mass shootings? 1974? 1986? And where was God when we wouldn't let women vote or blacks sit at the table?

While I won't debate whether a belief in God has a huge impact, I would think it's logical to believe that if one believes that their actions on earth would result either in eternal life or eternal death depending on their actions, I would consider that a very strong deterrent to murdering someone.

Didn't seem to stop the guy who just shot a dozen people enjoying a movie.