DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Another Day, Another Mass Shooting

There's certainly no one size fits all. Especially when you're dealing with a person that has a long history of severe mental illness.

I believe in a general sense my statement still applies.

An Atheist NUT with a gun is equally dangerous as a Religious NUT with a gun. NUTS with guns is the problem but you go ahead and have your fun trying to make it into a "Christians is Bad" thingy. The Christophobia is strong in this one.

No one is saying any religion is bad. Just don't prop up your belief in a theological system as superior to another theological system.

Which is precisely what I said.

You're right it does, it also brings up uncomfortable conversation about the responsibility of the people in those communities as well.

There have been plenty of threads about young blacks shooting young blacks... the problem is, its typically not the black posters who mention it. Its usually the white posters who ask about it, then told we're racist, anti-poor, etc for even mentioning it. People on here will site a statistic saying there are 100 blacks killed in confrontations with police, and say this represents things happening EVERYWHERE all the time. In every one of those threads, its brought up by more than one poster the 500 or so murders (+ another 2000 people shot but lived) a year in Chicago alone, then we're conveniently told it doesn't matter or its a whole other issue...

what's really interesting is that take every incident where a black person was shot by a cop and we're told it's murder because the cop had a choice to pull the trigger or not... but when a black person shoots a black person... now all of a sudden, pulling the trigger wasn't about a choice the shooter made of his own volition. It's generational poverty, white oppressive institutions, lack of outside investment in to the community, people calling welfare recipients leeches, etc etc. We're given every excuse under the sun, anything except that this person simply chose to do the wrong thing.

Not trying to pick a fight here fellas. But seriously, the issue of young black on black violence is brought up in just about every race related thread we've had over the last 2 years.

I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread...

You mean when you gladly posted this on page one?

"The shooter was a religious zealot who identified with the Westboro Baptist Church and believed God spoke to him directly."

Why not also post that he was White and we know how "They" are?

You're not going to stop someone that doesn't care. The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Either that, or you can wait until he runs out of ammo or the police arrive. I guess we could take the socialist route and assign everyone their own policeman to keep watch on them.

Nothing scientific here, but in my 6 years I'd say that 90% of the calls we respond to, the crime had already been committed and the suspect no longer at the scene. About 9.999% after someone has called 911, we get there while the crime is still taking place, or within moments after. I'd say less than 0.0000001% of the time we actually just happen to be somewhere when the crime is occurring and can respond before someone calls 911.

There definitely is something to the "good guy with a gun" angle. I think its somewhere around 80% or more of these incidents ends when the shooter kills themselves, and that's typically at the point where they've just made contact, or contact with police is imminent. I firmly believe that the Aurora shooter was wearing body armor not because he planned on shooting it out with police (or else he would have) but it was protection from anyone in the theater who might have had a gun on them.

Training for responding to mass shootings has become standardized in our state. Someone was smart enough to realize that if/when it goes down, you could easily have a city cop, deputy, and a trooper all respond. The standardized training ensures we're all on the page even if we never met before.

My agency has actually gone a step further by including our county EMS responders. Most of the training on the police side focused solely on tactics to neutralize the shooter. EMS does mass casualty training. We finally integrated both of them last year. The logistics alone blew my mind and the scenario we ran had about 2 dozen victims.

"city cop, deputy, and a trooper all respond."g

And I thank God for everything all of you do for us!

i know right?

i guess the only way to have less dui's is more people driving drunk!!

Because the statements I was responding to said nothing about race? And it wasn't more than a day or two ago when you tried to say I was a racist, and when asked to back up that stance with an example you scurried away like a scared child. Do you really want to do this again? And nothing about this situation makes me feel glad. Unlike you, I am not a racist with a predilection towards violence. Stop trying to pass your negative traits off on me.

Fail.

Yes. The argument for more guns is absolutely a fail.

Another fail.

Look, driving drunk is illegal - so the way to stop it is not by having more people be illegal.

Murder is illegal - they way to stop it is not to have more people murder.

I know the point you were getting at - you just failed to make a good analogy.

It seems to me you're wanting to punish the law abiders for the sake of the law breakers. (the sarcastic jibe about more drunk drivers........)

everybody is a law abiding citizen until they aren't.

the guy who shot up the theater...law abiding right? got the gun legally......yet he shot up the place.

so you're logic is to put even MORE guns on the street?

yes, that's about as dumb as allowing people to drink and drive.

mas shootings are going up. i'm tired of this "more guns" foolery. just because a "good" guy has a gun doesn't mean he's going to use it.

i'm getting sick of that.

"well, if somebody was there with a gun" "if i was there with a gun..."

unless you've shot somebody before, you don't know jack crap what somebody would do in that situation.

That's neat. But, I didn't say any of that, did I?

Your analogy that to stop drunk drivers we need more drunk drivers was, well, a poor one. And that you tried to fit it into a gun discussion is puzzling at best.

Millions of people legally drink everyday, they just follow the laws.

But, to take your argument further into ridiculousness, perhaps ex military should be banned from owning guns. I mean, you yourself have even said they can't be trusted with them on bases.

Uncalled For!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5WJJVSE_BE&list=RDm5WJJVSE_BE#t=19

sure, i think people like me with PTSD should probably not be allowed to own guns. it's a hazard for sure.

anything else?

Do you own a gun?

already sold my last one.

next question.

waiting for the next question.

aint no double standards my way. homey.

Should I get rid of my gun/guns?

If you have an 1878 Lyman Sharps 45/70 with a tang sight let me know, I'll take if off your hands.

j/c

Grew up around guns.
Fired my first pistol at 13.
Went hunting a couple times.
Just never got bit by that particular bug.


But the MAIN reason I don't own one: I don't need the extra responsibility in my life. I don't need the headaches/concerns associated with owning an object whose only purpose is to place holes in living bodies.

I don't need the extra hassle of being a 'responsible gun owner,' by keeping my sidearm in a lock box, which renders it virtually useless in a home invasion.

Friends of the family have a 15 year old son with a pretty acute case of autism spectrum disorder. They visit every 2 weeks or so. He's 6'2" now, and still runs through the house following his impulses like he did when he was 3 years old. As much as Mom & Dad keep him under supervision, many's the time he's emerged from some corner of our house with some item I haven't seen in 10 years. I don't need that next item to be a .9mm.

I rarely enter any gun debate, because I know that I'll be just another voice in the same endless dialogue that never changes- and never reaches a successful resolution. I'm not really against others owning guns... I'm just against ME owning any.

And if pressed, I'd probably add this sentiment: knowing that I'm at the same backyard barbecue as a 'good guy with a gun' probably isn't going to make me feel safer. It might make HIM feel safer, but I don't know him well enough to grant him that trust. I see how responsible "Joe Average" is every time I get in my car. He ain't exactly inspiring me with his judgement behind the wheel... and a car's not designed on purpose to harm folks. In other words: the chances of that backyard party being raided by 'bad guys' are so infinitesimal that an armed partier is actually statistically a more immediate potential threat to my safety.

I'm not really against guns. I just wish there were the same number of them in circulation/ownership as 1979. More guns = more bullets flying in the air. Period. Even if you, my fellow Dawgtalker isn't the one squeezing the trigger.

None is not a good thing, but fewer would be totally fine with me.


.02

Not certain how to respond to this post. So, I'll go from the heart. I am a responsible gun owner. So are millions of others. Probably 10's of millions others. Clemmy, I'd bet you'd feel fine with me carrying at a back yard cook out. Why? Because you'd never know I was carrying, unless you patted me down. And if you patted me down, well.......uh. And no one else would ever know either.

As for bad drivers? Can't help you on that one. Although, if a bad driver was hell bent on killing you, and you could prevent that by driving into him first, would you do it?

Bad example, I know.

I've pulled my gun in fear exactly 1 time in my life. And trust me, I was glad I had it, although the whole scenario scared the living crap out of me. The guy didn't break in, and, he didn't get shot.

I've had so much fun target shooting, as has my daughter. I enjoy hunting. I enjoy celebrating a Browns score with a few shotgun blasts.

Guns aren't bad. If you choose to not own one, that's fine. Just, please, don't say I shouldn't own one based on some idiot that does stupid things.

I knew I was going to have to write more on this one as soon as I hit the 'submit' button.

I was hoping that guys like you here on the boards would truly understand what I was saying. I especially expected you to not take my base philosophy personally, because we've already vetted each other as OK dudes. Passed the test with flying colors. In both directions.

And I know there are 'X millions' like you.

My point was more general about our society these days than it was about anybody I know here on the boards. AND... I hope you caught my sentence: "I'm not against others owning guns; I'm against ME owning guns."

I totally get your enjoyment from target shooting with your girl. It's one of many things you guys do that deepens the parent-child bond. No problems there either.

On my remark about bad drivers: I used it as an illustration of how much bad judgement occurs every day with something as mundane as driving to work or the store. If even 10% of those people exercise the same level of discretion with their firearms as they do with the basic rules of the road, it constitutes a threat to others. Accidents happen. Some people- even basically good people- are stupid. And careless with things they use/handle/encounter daily.

Don't front, Arch... I KNOW you see it too, because we know each other. Stupid people annoy you as much as they annoy me.

And some of those people carry... just like you do. They AREN'T you... but they ARE out there. And in the social circles that I call home, I stand a MUCH better chance of meeting 'St00pid' at a backyard party than I do some thug who needs a gun to get his next meal or fix.

Again... not talking about you. And as far as my points were aimed, it wasn't really necessary for you to defend your gun ownership, because it was unnecessary for you to be a representative for guys like you. It's not you I was talking about.

It's the guys I DON'T know at all who'd make me feel less safe... and you can't be every single one of them.


That's all I was saying.
Hope you understand my views a little better.

How'd I do?

...not politically viable to the ideology of most posters. People only care about certain types of other people who die.

j/c

I live about 15 miles south of Erie, PA ... there have been dozens of shootings in the city over the past few months (including a straight up shoot out on Friday night). Lots of racial tension and gang activity and I know of families/friends who've been directly affected.

Things *seem* to be getting worse on both the national and the local level.

Dylann Roof's Gun Purchase Helped by Clerical Error

Many NRA members have no problem with background checks, but the powers that be have fought it tooth and nail.

These people believe the 2nd means ability to buy guns period. No regulations.

LaPierre Fights To Stop The 'Nightmare' Of Background Checks

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Shooting isn't for everyone but people have been sport target hunting since man first learned to throw a rock. We've progressed as a species to include many new items to satisfy our ingrained desire to hit that target, we invented bowling, golf, frisbee golf, darts, tossing a football through a tire and countless others. When I won the local pitch, hit and throw when I was 12 it was because I was better than the next kid at hitting a flag with a baseball from 120 feet. Before baseball was invented sport shooting was our nations national pastime. It's all about the target.

Now take the rifle I mentioned to Arch. It's a single shot sporting rifle based off a once popular buffalo rifle. It's a beautiful piece of machinery and it's intended purpose is to accurately hit a target from a great distance. It has a set and a hair trigger. It's nearly 4 feet long and weighs 9lbs, so conceal carrying this at your backyard bbq would be impossible.





Can it kill people? Sure it can. It can kill damn near anything walking, (the book is still out on the effective range for taking down a Yeti), but killing people wasn't it's designed purpose.

Gun ownership doesn't have to include packing at your friends backyard bbq. I don't recall ever telling my wife, "Hey hon, we're going to Kevin and Debbie's cookout, be sure and pack your Springfield, it's rough over there". If I'm invited to a bbq where I feel the need to conceal carry, I'm probably not going. In being a responsible gun owner and since backyard bbq's always include some form of adult beverage, I don't believe that alcohol and guns should ever be in the same place. If you're (not you specifically) inclined to mix the two, that to me should instantly evoke Bill Engvall popping into your life going, "here's your sign".

Yes I know you're speaking more of pistols, peculiar thing is all the talk year hear of banning weapons, it's always "assault rifles", not pistols, or limiting magazine sizes to 10. It's pistols that are doing the vast majority of the killings and a six shot revolver can still kill six people. I believe in background checks for buyers, if the FBI would have done their job properly that South Carolina shooter would never have been able to purchase his weapon. We have laws in place that would have stopped him from buying the weapon, we need to fix the issues that prevented them from stopping that purchase.

In order to ship a weapon you need a licensed FFL dealer to handle the shipment, on each end. I'd be in favor of getting rid of the "gun show" loophole by requiring the sale of a weapon from individual to individual to be handled by a licensed FFL dealer that can perform the background check. If you're buying new, you have to be checked out, used should work the same way.

Also, not letting our federal agents weapons into the hands of criminals to shoot innocent people walking on a pier would be a good path to follow too. JMHO

Commonalities I see in these events.

1) Loners or introverts that have been shunned, shamed, or ignored by society. Starved for attention.

2) What do we do when they carry out these atrocities? We give them media attention, plaster their name and picture all over the news.

3) Whats a good motive for these events by these people? Attention, 15 minutes of fame.

These people are not all mental cases in need of padded rooms. They are people starved for attention or seeking notoriety, one particular event sends them over the cliff of "sanity" and into the chasm of "I'll show them".

So a start would be to not advertise the person, their life, their name, their picture. Make the news about a tribute to the victims, so that their is nothing to be gained by the suspect.

I know many will say, we need better mental health treatment and all that. That may be true, but most of these people are not visually mentally ill or show true signs of carrying out these atrocities.

If we are going to report and investigate every loner, introvert, angry person we see/know, we will have a long line of backlogged investigations. Yes there may be signs of someone being pushed too far, but even then, those around them often suffer hindsight. Because it's not until the worse happens that we can look back and actually see signs. But even professionals can't always put the signs together and predict the future. Much less someone involved in their daily lives that are used to seeing certain emotions from these suspects, and as they have done thousands of times before, shrug it off.

Truer Words were never spoken. Until we wake up as a Nation and quit disrespecting God, Evil will always grow.

that's nonsense.

over 70 percent of people in this country identify as christians.

on top of that, there were still plenty of murder's going on back in the "moral" days.

there's been plenty of murders throughout history, back when the church ran everything.

this nonsense about it being the lack of God is a cop out.

Just fine Mr. Clem.

COP OUT? REALLY!

Try asking the People of Sodom and Gomorrah how they liked it, they thumbed their nose at God and look at what happened.

We threw God out over 50 years ago, out of the Schools and now over the years, out of pretty much everything else. You don't see a pattern here? Evil is growing at a high rate, were teaching our kids to Sin in all ways possible. I mean, Really! If I can connect the dots, then anybody can.

Yes, I do. A pattern of progress. We took prayer out of school in 1962, when a black man had to drink from a designated drinking fountain. Are you trying to make an argument that we were better off as a society back then?



Define "evil", and a metric with which to quantify it. Murder and violent crime rates have been dropping precipitously for some time now. Same with property crimes. What "evil" are you speaking of?

Sure is wise to already have the necessary weapons for self defense when trouble arises. Would hate to have to wait out that 7 day waiting period while bad guys are banging on my door.

A person would never believe that if they only watched the news, or read internet headlines.

Thus the rationale behind the Abrams parked on your front lawn! Playing it safe, eh 40'?