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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...ther-qb-battlesYour article sounds like it was written by a New York Lawyer. Oh wait a second it was in fact written by a New York Lawyer  I am not disagreeing with him on Josh as I am not happy he is our starter either, but this guy has no clue about Johnny
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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general reply.
Hoyer when benched became a divider and that is something a guy like Pet will never stand for. It wasnt I have to play better and when i get a chance I will do so, it was crying in the press on how he won 8 games. This is why he wasnt asked back.
Now as far as McCown. What I saw last year was a guy that was happy being the backup and the mentor. I did not see a guy on the field that ever looked like he was comfortable being the starting QB. That is a red flag but it isnt a final nail in the coffin either.
He didnt trust his line and he was expecting to be hit. He was holding the ball to long. We need 140 plus rushing yards per game to win with McCown. We needed it with Hoyer last year as well.
I do feel we can win with McCown but he needs a major injection of confidence and desire to be a starting QB. Say what you want about Hoyer but he had desire to be an NFL starter and he wanted it more than anything. The thing that we need to see is in that preseason week 2 game is that Bills Defense getting a couple good hits/pressures on McCown. If he is gonna fold you just turn all attention to getting Johnny in the game.
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j/c:
I think it's crazy that so many people are ignoring McCown's career. It's not like he's some young pup, the guy is 36 years old and has sucked for a long, long time. He was coaching high school for one year because not one team would sign him. Now people are talking about how they think he is going to do well in Cleveland.
Of course, fans were saying the same things about guys like Timid, BQ, Delhommme, and Weeden, too.
It's kind of interesting to see how the positive thoughts build off of each other until we get to a point where so many have convinced themselves--and others--that they are the ones w/the rational and logical arguments.
Then, the season starts and reality slaps them right in the face.
...BUT NOW, we are at a point where all the information is known and what matters most to Browns fans, can McCown produce?
We are at a "show me" point and it will take a month or so we can watch McCown play 6 weeks from now.
Be patient, vers...
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Yes, it was baffling to me also as well as disappointing.
But for me it was the timing of it all. Thursday nite game - he looked excellent even if the stats just say - OK...he looked excellent.
The nation all acclaimed and crowned him a viable NFL Starter. Cleveland now has a real starter at QB...rang all over the nation.
The thing that makes me think it was choke rather than rubber legs. Is after that game...he had 10 days to prepare and rest those legs. And yet his downward spiral started from that next game. And just got increasingly worse. And it was his footwork - if his footwork was in place and he just could drive...and its more strength from hip turn and shoulders for the pass strength.
But he just would not get his feet in proper position to make most of the important throws that he was AWFUL on.
Baffling yes, leg fatigue due to his Surgery...I would think some fatigue had to be there cause lets face it. He started 1 game before coming to us and 3 in 2013 and then the 13 from 2014. Maybe physically he hit a wall except I didn't see him slow down at all...there were no signs of that. It all comes down to mental fatigue, or just choke. I don't see a physical reason for the about face in technique.
But remember even with the good time of his game - he really wasn't always sharp and spot on in accuracy and arm strength (floaters on long passes). Many posts on his winning way from negative guys stating Oh he's lucky as 3 passes hit DBs in their chest and they dropped them...stuff like that. Which was true.
jmho
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he really wasn't always sharp and spot on in accuracy and arm strength (floaters on long passes) A good, and I think forgotten, point on Hoyer last season. More good than bad in that stretch for sure, but that issue did present itself from start to finish last year.
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Yup. That inaccuracy thing was there all the time.
Made for some exciting 'close calls' in the first half of the season. After the bye, those 'close calls' became real groaners.
Definitely two different QB's wearing the same uniform.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Browns training camp: Dwayne Bowe says Josh McCown can be top-5 QB, Terrelle Pryor will make team By NATE ULRICH Published: July 31, 2015 Browns wide receiver Dwayne Bowe developed warm, fuzzy feelings about the offense's progress early in training camp and raved about teammates Josh McCown and Terrelle Pryor on Friday. McCown, the projected starting quarterback, and backup Johnny Manziel stole the show during the second full-squad practice of camp after the offense had a lackluster outing Thursday. McCown, who continued to take all of the first-team snaps, and Manziel, who worked with the second unit, made several nice throws resulting in intermediate and long gains. The highlight, though, was McCown's completion of about 45 yards to Bowe along the sideline and over cornerback K'Waun Williams in an 11-on-11 drill. "He's showing all the potential of being a top-five quarterback in the NFL," said Bowe, who signed with the Browns this offseason after spending the first eight seasons of his NFL career with the Kansas City Chiefs. But most outsiders believe McCown is a bottom-five quarterback in the league. After all, he's 17-32 as a starter in 12 NFL seasons who went 1-10 last season with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. "Oh, my God. We're going to be the sleepers," Bowe replied when asked about McCown's record. "Look at my numbers last year [when I had no touchdown receptions], and then look at my years four years prior to that. I led the league [with 15 receiving touchdown catches]. It's not about what you did last year. It's about what you're doing now. The way he's performing out here, it's unbelievable, making tight throws, trusting his receivers." McCown also completed passes on a few deep out routes. "If the guy can take that chance and make those throws, he's confident," Bowe said. "Once you get a receiver to make those plays for you all the way down the field, it builds confidence and chemistry for the whole offense." Bowe conceded the 36-year-old McCown's accuracy and athleticism is better than he thought before they became teammates. "When you see somebody [with] over 10 years [in the league], they say they don't got it anymore. That's the knock," Bowe said. "I see him as one of the best I have [played with]. He's making great throws, smart throws and he's mobile in the pocket, more than people think. I think he's going to surprise a lot of people." McCown wasn't the only recipient of Bowe's praise. Bowe said "there's no doubt" in his mind Pryor will make the team while transitioning from quarterback to wide receiver. "I have never seen a quarterback transition from quarterback to receiver in two practices and do as good as he did -- ever," Bowe said. "I was telling him in meetings today, 'Just stick with it be patient. It's going to be hard at first.' But he's making it look so easy that he's starting to scare me. He's going to be really, really good. People think he's just going to come in and be a body. But he's actually going to play here and make plays for this team." Pryor took some reps with the second-team offense a day after he toiled with the third team. "He's extremely talented," Bowe said. "He has the work ethic, and he's a team player." http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...e-team-1.612350
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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Both QBs looked stellar today. Pryor had a decent catch, or two. I was on the farside of the field during the 11 on 11s.
Pads get put on starting tomorrow. That'll make a difference to separate the men and the boys.
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At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Love the hype from this time of year =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Clearly, we are being trolled by our own players now.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Wasn't Bowe previously arrested for driving while high? Maybe his symptoms never subsided
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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To take this one step further, he is now being placed within a set of circumstances that give him a fairly decent chance to succeed: a top tier o-line, a potent running game, a (potentially) very serviceable WR corps, a defense that can (hopefully) keep him on the field and a coaching staff that supports him and believes in his leadership and abilitie The timing of this post--and to whom it was posted to--is impeccable. Thanks. LOL
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I would completely agree. I think it is a direct parallel to what I said in response to your comment earlier yesterday morning about what fans are 'hoping' for. Here, I'll show you again: What posters are 'hoping' for is the capability seen in Chicago- albeit just a five game stretch. One last flash in the pan year with similar team makeup from that year in Chicago--- alongside an amazing offensive line, solid running game and bigger WR targets. CalDawg states exactly what Browns fans are hoping for...a 'set of circumstances' to quote CalDawg. A good line, running game, etc. Just like he had in Chicago. No one is jumping on a bandwagon or dismissing his overall career. Just hoping for a 'fairly decent' chance to succeed based on the pieces he had a couple years back. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. Today Versatile Dog, I applaud you. To steal your obscenely over used term, you took 'reading comprehension' to a completely different level today and I think everyone here should recognize this substantive leap. Bravo, sir. Bravo.
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I know there the "HOPE" theory implied to at least my opinion and others. But I am not just HOPING...I am stating a fact and not predicting any outcome positive or negative.
Fact is in studying McCown many here have studied a lot of his stats and make some fair assumptions.
What I have known over the years the best quality (not the only one but best) for a QB to have is Accuracy.
My observations are that McCown is actually very very accurate. With a strong arm...putting it in perspective. A more athletic and mobile Derek Anderson who is accurate with all his passes. But if pressured and gets hit a lot he will lose his comfort zone as did DA when he was forced to move laterally.
But if teams play the run as I suspect they will and combined with the prowess of our OL. What I have always said is most fans here will be maybe Shocked at his accuracy.
I do think in playoffs you are going against a lot of the elite defenses so I don't think we got a shot at the SB or anything. But we could have a very good year.
So far all this gushing about McCown in camp and it will continue throughout camp. Is mostly confirming what I am stating. Top 5 QB? no not that - that was just an emotional post as Bowe and many are surprised at McCowns throwing it is unexpected.
So I'm not hanging on the thread of just a 5 game wonder spurt. The success though in those 5 games with Chicago actually is simply evidence of my observations. They had a strong run game and good play action situations their OL was no where as good as our but coming in as the back up the theory was take away the run and make McCown "THE BACK UP" beat you. Sounds familiar.
So this isn't about some 5 game miracle. Its about an environment that oddly possible - McCown has never experienced...not even Chicago cause their OL is nowhere close to ours.
Not asking you to agree with me - just observe on the field in what I'm saying and keep an open mind. This isn't some HOMER HOPE thing. I'm not that shallow. I bring more to the table than "HOPE" I am telling you who McCown is. They hit him hard and often...we are screwed. But he is kept clean he is no Weeden or anyone else for that matter we have seen. He just might be the most ACCURATE Passer we have had since 99.
Just observe before poo pooing my evaluation... 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I'm not poo-pooing your evaluation just because my stance is about most people have hope about what McCown can do. Not sure where this is coming from? I do disagree that you state things as fact based on what he should do this season. I definitely don't agree with that.
My overarching theme in my past few posts on this thread has to do with trying to fabricate a majority opinion on a player that is not there. No offense, EO, but your take is not of that of a majority opinion, and that's perfectly fine-- it doesn't have to be.
I hope you are right. I hope it is simply an environment he has never experienced before. Honestly, these past two practices have raised (greatly) my hopes of what McCown can do. I truly mean that. Accuracy...yes. Demeanor...check. These reports although generally optimistic in nature are essentially saying, if not outright quoting..the is the best QB practice we've seen in years. Not sure what that means w/o pads but it does get the excitement meter up, I won't lie.
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Again, what?
Oh, I see.....because one poster is more aligned with your view of McCown, everyone is? Still waiting for that majority argument.
Man, and to think I thought you turned a corner.....SMH.
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I don't need approval from others to make my opinion valid. I simply observe and this is what I KNOW I have seen. I cannot predict the result. Maybe they go hog wild on McCown and blitz like crazy? I would hope we would be able to run the crap out of the ball if they concentrate on McCown (as an adjustment).
I don't go with the majority to validate what I saw. I know exactly what I have seen. Posters can believe me or not...not even asking to believe me. Just have an open mind and observe if what I say is valid to them.
But somebody like Vers...I know you liked DA...well if we keep McCown clean like we did DA...you are going to like him to. Regardless of his checkered past. Its not hope. Its the environment he is in here and now.
Will it happen - will he have a mental breakdown of confidence? Those things I cannot predict. I think DA did as did Hoyer.
jmho but more so obersvation the fact I present is he is very accurate. The rest I cannot claim will be fact. Just that I am pretty sure as a fact that many will be surprised when they see McCown without pressure.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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So IF we can keep everything around Mccown absolutely perfect, he may be average?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Practice. Practice man. We are talking about practice.
It's great to be optimistic in training camp.
McCown's career is there to be studied for those who want.
If we do this and if we do that. Training camp talk. I am all for it.
When the real games begin we shall see McCown.
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Practice. Practice man. We are talking about practice.
It's great to be optimistic in training camp.
McCown's career is there to be studied for those who want.
If we do this and if we do that. Training camp talk. I am all for it.
When the real games begin we shall see McCown.
Are you saying we shall see the 'real' McCown and he will definitely fail? Or are you saying we need to wait and see if he can carry the form over to games that matter? I can't tell if you're being open minded or because of his history it has sealed his fate already as far as how good he can be for the Browns in 2015/16.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I know there the "HOPE" theory implied to at least my opinion and others. But I am not just HOPING...I am stating a fact and not predicting any outcome positive or negative.
Fact is in studying McCown many here have studied a lot of his stats and make some fair assumptions.
What I have known over the years the best quality (not the only one but best) for a QB to have is Accuracy.
My observations are that McCown is actually very very accurate. With a strong arm...putting it in perspective. A more athletic and mobile Derek Anderson who is accurate with all his passes. But if pressured and gets hit a lot he will lose his comfort zone as did DA when he was forced to move laterally.
But if teams play the run as I suspect they will and combined with the prowess of our OL. What I have always said is most fans here will be maybe Shocked at his accuracy.
I do think in playoffs you are going against a lot of the elite defenses so I don't think we got a shot at the SB or anything. But we could have a very good year.
So far all this gushing about McCown in camp and it will continue throughout camp. Is mostly confirming what I am stating. Top 5 QB? no not that - that was just an emotional post as Bowe and many are surprised at McCowns throwing it is unexpected.
So I'm not hanging on the thread of just a 5 game wonder spurt. The success though in those 5 games with Chicago actually is simply evidence of my observations. They had a strong run game and good play action situations their OL was no where as good as our but coming in as the back up the theory was take away the run and make McCown "THE BACK UP" beat you. Sounds familiar.
So this isn't about some 5 game miracle. Its about an environment that oddly possible - McCown has never experienced...not even Chicago cause their OL is nowhere close to ours.
Not asking you to agree with me - just observe on the field in what I'm saying and keep an open mind. This isn't some HOMER HOPE thing. I'm not that shallow. I bring more to the table than "HOPE" I am telling you who McCown is. They hit him hard and often...we are screwed. But he is kept clean he is no Weeden or anyone else for that matter we have seen. He just might be the most ACCURATE Passer we have had since 99.
Just observe before poo pooing my evaluation... No one can put lipstick on a pig (The Browns CURRENT as well as PAST Organizations) better than you eo! Congrats! 
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To take this one step further, he is now being placed within a set of circumstances that give him a fairly decent chance to succeed: a top tier o-line, a potent running game, a (potentially) very serviceable WR corps, a defense that can (hopefully) keep him on the field and a coaching staff that supports him and believes in his leadership and abilitie The timing of this post--and to whom it was posted to--is impeccable. Thanks. LOL Thank you and you're welcome.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I'm coming around on McCown...
I'm not saying he's leading us to 13-3 and playoffs, but I think he can keep this team in the playoff hunt late in the year.
He will be good when the run game is doing it's thing and the defense is playing to their potential. These days you don't really get to play good defense and run the ball every game. There will be days where we will come on here and rip the Browns for not covering guys or getting to the QB, but it's the way it goes today. Everyone gets beat. I think that's where we will struggle. Great QB's can carry their teams through bad defensive days, or days where they cannot run the ball.
I like him better than Hoyer. I think he's more professional, and his experience being around this league will probably help with some of these younger guys. He's got an elite level OL in front of him and plenty of young backs. Veteran receivers in Hawk and Hartline...
Hoyer really rubbed me the wrong way last year with how he handled his situation. He came off as a baby when having to deal with the Manziel stuff. Like I get that Manziel was nowhere near ready to play, but he only saw the field because Hoyer got to the point where he was doing more harm than good.
McCown has already warmed up to the idea of being a mentor, as well as most likely being your day one starter. I was of the belief that the Browns were spewing garbage at us when they clued us in on McCown being the starter months ago... Sounds like they were telling the truth.
I don't really care about getting the first pick or a top 5 pick anymore, but there will come a point in time where the Browns may have to invest another first round pick on a quarterback. Yes there is the possibility that Manziel may be a draft bust, but it happens, and I think they have no reason to keep him around. It was an extra pick from ridding yourself of Trent Richardson. They can wipe their hands clean in the preseason if the felt like it. They are not married to him. (I think Johnny is in a great spot now)
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The later. I am open minded.
However, I will not buy into training camp fodder.
McCown has to show he can lead "this team" at this time.
His career is what it is. Each situation and time is different. He is getting another chance to prove what he can do.
I reserve judgement until I see him in real games.
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To be fair to our Qbs, they have already combined for more good days against this defense than we saw all of last year of camp and this is against a top 3 secondary right there with the SEahawks and jets. Cant wait to see this team against the Bills. I think that is gonna be the good challenge.
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I said it before and I'll say it again; let's give them a chance to see what they can do. By them I mean the coaches, the GM, the players and especially our qb's. I know josh's track record isn't that great but this is a new system with better players. He just may be good in it. Time will tell.
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You should see my County Fair blue ribbon collection...
But seriously what is so pig in lipstick about "OBSERVING" on what I have evaluated. Actually both the positive McCown and Negative McCown as I have evaluated have reared their heads.
To make it Farmer Simple...
Protect well - McCown Good.
Have Pressure - McCown Bad.
Sometimes things are that simple.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
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Same, I am more than willing to give the guy a chance. Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, hmm Josh McCown? never know where you will find that one hit wonder. I will be surprised if he is still starting by week 4 but I hope he is starting week 19 lol
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The later. I am open minded.
However, I will not buy into training camp fodder.
McCown has to show he can lead "this team" at this time.
His career is what it is. Each situation and time is different. He is getting another chance to prove what he can do.
I reserve judgement until I see him in real games.
I think we're all reserving judgement.. We've been burned so many times. I just hope the team around him plays well, because he really won't be able to carry us. There are still Bears fans here that are mad at both the fact that they didn't stay with McCown during the 2013 year, as well as that they didn't retain him either. Hindsight is what it is, but they had a chance to pick between him and Cutler. I understand that he had 2 really good, big physical WR's, and a really good pass catching RB, but they had a running game that at times would just vanish, as well as no offensive line. I think he can lead us to between 7 and 9 wins... I also think he could make it through the whole year which I really think kills this team's psyche every single year when you have to go out there and play in a game that features Connor Shaw, Thaddeus Lewis, and guys like that. To have a QB start and finish the year would really be a nice step forward going into next season. Like I said, I don't care about top 5 picks any more. I want this team to win every game they can, and if it's built right, you won't need to put the franchise's hopes on some 21 year old kid's shoulders. I still think we will have to use a high pick on a QB but it doesn't need to be the hot prospect projected 1 overall. Andrew Luck type QB's only come around maybe once a decade if you're lucky. Looking at this upcoming crop of guys, I don't see anyone of that caliber. We love Cardale and we love his potential but that dude needs a TON of work...
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History should teach us a QBS play in preseason means very little to the regular season at times.
Jake Delhomme had most Browns fans believing he was going to take them the playoffs.
How did that turn out?
Keep McCown attempts under 25 he might turn out ok.
But he can't get into shootouts with better QBs.
He's never been the best QB on the field most times in his career
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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History should teach us a QBS play in preseason means very little to the regular season at times.
Jake Delhomme had most Browns fans believing he was going to take them the playoffs.
How did that turn out?
Keep McCown attempts under 25 he might turn out ok.
But he can't get into shootouts with better QBs.
He's never been the best QB on the field most times in his career Totally agree. The running game and defense have to carry this team. Maybe 30 years ago that would be a recipe for success, but today it will only take you so far. I still think a veteran presence at QB is not the worst thing. For those who still have hope for Manziel, the best situation that could evolve from this is that McCown plays well enough to keep Manziel on the bench, and allow Johnny to just keep doing what he's doing. The Browns have to develop Manziel, and they have yet to develop a QB since re-entering the league. I really really like our defense this year though. I love hearing about the CB2 spot being battled for pretty hard... Danny Shelton is going to make a world of difference up front. I think Nate Orchard could be a guy who fans warm up to. There's potential for this defense to make a name for themselves.
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Legend
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Legend
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Trent Dilfer won a superbowl with a great D and a terrible O and we all know he sucked
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Bowe states top 5 QB, Thomas says franz QB away, Josh shows maturity, smarts, ability...IF D plays as raved about, IF we stay healthy, we got a shot....GO Browns!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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Legend
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Legend
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One trap that is easy to fall into is predicting this year from last years results.
Each year teams turn over close to a third of their roster. Schedules change. Injuries take a different route. Lot of factors come into play. The difference between teams is much closer than one thinks.
The one constant for teams that have a franchise quarterback is: they usually give you a chance to win.
This years college crop has a number of prospects that could prove to be good players. I totally agree that Cardale has a long way to go.
Hackenberg and Goff are worth paying attention too. Others will rise as well.
This year I will watch the college quarterback prospects very closely.
Some day it is my ultimate hope that the Browns will have a quarterback that I believe in. Bernie was the last.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Trent Dilfer won a superbowl with a great D and a terrible O and we all know he sucked And then the league changed the rules to allow receivers free reign on the field... and to boot, hitting guys high is 15 yards with subsequent fines, and possible future suspensions... I don't think you'll really see any more Trent Dilfer SB wins. Especially with the slow death of the franchise running back.
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Legend
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Legend
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I am going to say this again, despite the dreaded feedback that is certainly coming from Memphis.
I think too many of you are overrating how well McCown will play in Cleveland.
I think you guys are wrong in regards to how much better the Brown's offense is in comparison to the other teams he has played for.
I get the feeling that many of you think that Cleveland's offense is superior to the offenses of his previous teams. I think that is a false concept.
I also think many of you are relying on his issues being directly tied to his supporting cast and that he did not have issues of his own.
I think you guys are wrong. As I often have.......and we know how those debates have concluded. Right?
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Legend
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Legend
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I agree with the gist of your post.
I also don't believe it's impossible for things to break our way...get a little lucky. I think that's what most are hoping for.
I don't recall ever in any previous year the genuine belief in the coaches and teammates that are coming out of the players mouths this year. The chemistry and camaraderie seem to be off the chart. Maybe it has been that way before, but something seems different. Maybe some confidence and chemistry will help create a little bit of that luck.
Of course, as the famous Tyson quote says.....
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh McCown...
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