Gangs. Drugs. The whole "Oh, you dissed me so now I'm gonna shoot you, or whoever is there" mentality.'
That's what's wrong with "us". Take away gang violence - where does that put us?
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns). NY, same. LA, same. Toledo will probably have 5 shootings between now and Sunday. Charlotte - probably the same. Tampa, Oakland, Dallas.........geez, name the city, shootings happen.
Why? Drugs. Gangs. Money.
Keep that crap away from me. It'd be nice if we could keep that crap away from them also.
then why do countries like Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Germany, Austria, China, Czech Republic all have less than 1 intentional homicide per 100,000 citizens in a year and the United States has 5 times that many?
My question to you would be, would you rather live in one of those other counties or the USA?
I'm planning on getting a shotgun in the near future for home defense. That way, my wife and I could both shoot to defend without worrying about pinpoint accuracy, especially if there's an intruder in the night when our lights are off. Any suggestions for a good one? I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars, I just want something that will get the job done and is reliable.
If we start from the premise that this is true, it is in fact people that are the problem... and we've been told that people are the same all over... then why do countries like Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Germany, Austria, China, Czech Republic all have less than 1 intentional homicide per 100,000 citizens in a year and the United States has 5 times that many?
I'm going to say culture is the difference. Which goes back to people being the biggest problem. All those countries hold self-responsibility to a much higher regard than in America, actually I would say when it comes to self-responsibility, America is a laughing stock.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
I'm planning on getting a shotgun in the near future for home defense. That way, my wife and I could both shoot to defend without worrying about pinpoint accuracy, especially if there's an intruder in the night when our lights are off. Any suggestions for a good one? I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars, I just want something that will get the job done and is reliable.
I have a Mossburg 500 Tactical 12 gage for home defense, cost around 500 if I recall correctly. You'll want the shortest barrel that is legal where you live, normally 18" though I believe some states allow 14". 00 buckshot is the normal preference for home defense as far as shells go, but the opinions do vary wildly on this.
Some people just don't get it... the problem is PEOPLE.
Ding Ding Ding and what do we have for our winner Johnny?
If we start from the premise that this is true, it is in fact people that are the problem... and we've been told that people are the same all over... then why do countries like Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Germany, Austria, China, Czech Republic all have less than 1 intentional homicide per 100,000 citizens in a year and the United States has 5 times that many?
Economically we are on par with any of those countries if not ahead of them... yet we kill each other at a significantly higher rate...
Our intentional homicide rate is on par with countries like Micronesia, Yemen, Niger, Thailand... and not too far ahead of North Korea and Argentina....
So there has to be something more to it than just "people" are the problem right? That simplistic of an answer seems like a bit of a cop out to me.
And while these stats are for all intentional homicides, not just gun violence... yes, we have more guns per capita than any other country (and I'm not sure if they guessed at the total number of guns or just the registered legal ones) but Switzerland has a lot of guns, so does Sweden and France... yet you are still 5x more likely to get killed in the United States than any of those countries....
So I ask a very simple question... what the hell is wrong with us?
Have you paid much attention to the America culture? We're a self-centered, violence-glorifying culture. In all of our entertainment, the characters settle differences with dramatics, stupidity, and violence (watch Sons of Anarchy... it doesn't get much clearer, lol!).
Beyond that, we just apparently have more than our fair share of whack jobs - and that could easily be attributable to our culture, diets, etc...
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I'm planning on getting a shotgun in the near future for home defense. That way, my wife and I could both shoot to defend without worrying about pinpoint accuracy, especially if there's an intruder in the night when our lights are off. Any suggestions for a good one? I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars, I just want something that will get the job done and is reliable.
It's a bullpup shotgun that has two magazines and is pump action. It will hold 12, 3" shells or 14, 2 and 3/4" shells, if you use the mini shot shells it will hold 24. The beauty of it for home protection is it's overall length, 26 inches. You can maneuver this shotgun in the smallest of hallways easily. It has a picatinny rail on bottom for a forward grip or light and one on top for whatever kind of sight you like. You can find them from $750 to $800 right now.
5 times more than 1 out of 100,000 is 5 out of 100,000. The numbers are so minuscule that it's not a relevant fact.
Tell that to the 4 additional families who have a loved one murdered ever year... that the death of their family member is not statistically relevant.
Quote:
5 out of a 1,000 is still pretty small.
5 out of a 100 is becoming relevant
So we have to get to a point where 5% of the population is murdered every year before it becomes relevant? You get that 5% of the population is 16 million people right? For the love of...
You do realize that would be 30 kids from an average elementary school, 80 kids from a decent size high school... murdered EVERY YEAR... and THAT is when you think it would START to become relevant?
I mean I get 5 out of 1000.. that's only 2 or 3 kids from every elementary school in the country being killed every year.. I guess that is too small to even worry about it..
I'm planning on getting a shotgun in the near future for home defense. That way, my wife and I could both shoot to defend without worrying about pinpoint accuracy, especially if there's an intruder in the night when our lights are off. Any suggestions for a good one? I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars, I just want something that will get the job done and is reliable.
I highly recommend this gun and it ranges between 300 and 400 dollars.
It also comes with a pistol grip option making it far shorter.
Last edited by PitDAWG; 07/30/1501:33 PM. Reason: Added detail
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I never understood the equality argument Swish. We are all equal under the Constitution. It is when the government interferes with the social order that you create division and "equality". Equality is an illusion. I could no more play QB for the Cleveland Browns than you could. We are equally unequal. However, I a certain you have skills, characteristics, resources that others do not have. Equality has always been a construct of the weak to explain their failures.
Failure is not bad. We often learn how to be a success by first failing. Gay couples in America have the same Constitutional rights that I or any other American have. It is attempt to create equality that one claims a right where there is none. The government has no authority to deny a gay couple from marrying. They also have no authority to force another citizen to marry them or accept their marriage. The problem in America society as I see it now is not the people as much as it is the government intervention into individual social compacts. The idea that I can force another to accept anything I want through the force of the government in the name of equality is another way of saying tyranny.
the reason government feels the need to get involved with social issues is because we THE people already screwed it up. over and over again.
People want to claim this country is the greatest because Freedom. but there's other countries with the same freedoms as us. depending on which countries we choose to compare, some would say they might have more.
DC had said something that has stuck with me: Government get involved with the citizens prove they can't be trusted, or something of the sort. basically government has to drop the hammer when we show Dad that we are irresponsible.
yes, we are equal under the constitution.
but that's where the equality ends.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
DC had said something that has stuck with me: Government get involved with the citizens prove they can't be trusted, or something of the sort.
I think what you are referring to was a conversation about gun control.. that if the NRA and the gun enthusiasts don't start participating to come up with some real plans to curb gun violence then the government is going to do it for them. But I've used that same sentiment on other topics, when the people prove they can't police themselves, that is when the government has no choice but to do it for them.
I'm from the gov't, and I'm here to help. I think that was reagan.
Let me tell you this: Small town Ohio. There's an intersection in town - 2 st. rts. Trucks never had a problem making a right hand turn or left hand turn. Until the town re-did the pavement a few years ago. Then the town wanted to add fancy "old school" street lights that looked like old gas lanterns.
Pretty as can be. Problem was though, they put them too close to the corner, and trucks were hitting them when turning right, or left. (one st. rt. T's into the other)
Solution? Town said "hey, let's put bollards up to protect the street lights". more money spent. Solved exactly 0 problems.
Now, keep in mind, before the misplaced streetlights got installed, there were no problems for semi's making turns, ok?
So, street lights misplaced. Then we had to pay for bollards to protect the street lights.
Then, discussion of changing the st. rt. to a county rd outside of town, there by having the trucks routed away from town. Pay for an "evaluation".......didn't like that one, so pay for another one. Presto! Second evaluation said "oh, yeah, that would be good to get trucks out of town, and it will increase jobs by about 50 downtown." (again, small time Ohio town)
In the mean time, the town bought one of the buildings on the corner that was causing a problem ever since the new street lights. $80,000. They tore it down. (paid $10,000 for the estimate - and it was estimated to cost $50,000 to tear the building down.) Turns out, it only cost $25,000. (so the town spent almost half of what it cost to tear down the building trying to find out how much it would cost to tear down the building)
So, now we're trying to spend money to re-route trucks somewhere else, but we spent well over 115,000 to buy a building and tear it down.
And the bollards and street lights are still exactly where they were. And the town is still (town gov't.) trying to get traffic out of town by changing the st. rt. to outsided of town.
Hey - maybe just eliminate the bollards, and move the street lights back to where they were? Oh, hell no.
the government doesn't do crap for the people. the people don't do crap for the government.
the politicians are at each others throats. the people are at each others throats.
we got two different worlds in the same country. we only seem to want to "unite" when outside sources talk trash.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
the government doesn't do crap for the people. the people don't do crap for the government.
the politicians are at each others throats. the people are at each others throats.
we got two different worlds in the same country. we only seem to want to "unite" when outside sources talk trash.
Yup and it's why the people need to be armed. It's too easy for the government to legislate away the peoples freedoms otherwise.
I wouldn't mind looking at say France, which requires a license to own firearms much like one would consider a drivers license. I know some folks here in the states pull the tyranny card (If the govt knows about my guns they can take them) but the govt knows about most of your guns anyway. And if the govt is truly going door to door taking your guns, then you have a choice: either defend them with your life or submit. At that point we'd probably be under some sort of military coup...
DC had said something that has stuck with me: Government get involved with the citizens prove they can't be trusted, or something of the sort. basically government has to drop the hammer when we show Dad that we are irresponsible.
yes, we are equal under the constitution.
but that's where the equality ends.
Not my daddy. Politicians are hired to vote the will of their constituents, not to play a father figure for the poor, ignorant masses.
We are supposed to be equal under the law, but we are not supposed to be equal in everything.
noun 1. the voluntary agreement among individuals by which, according to any of various theories, as of Hobbes, Locke, or Rousseau, organized society is brought into being and invested with the right to secure mutual protection and welfare or to regulate the relations among its members. 2. an agreement for mutual benefit between an individual or group and the government or community as a whole.
Nowhere do I see government? A social compact is how a society operates. When the government acts as an individual and attempts to create a social compact with its citizenry, it is a failure. First, when the government acts it never allows VOLUNTARY adherence by its citizenry. Secondly, it does not act to secure the mutual protection and welfare of its citizenry. It acts to protect its own authority over its citizenry. Thirdly, in a social compact both sides need to agree for the mutual benefit of each side. The government acts always on one side of an agreement. I believe that what you stated about the government coming in to fix what the citizenry has broken proves my point. The problem is that with the advent of the government being the giver of rights, (Civil Rights, Women's Rights, Gay Rights, etc...) they no longer serve the citizenry as a protector of all citizens rights. The government is the problem not the solution. It may sound radical but when was the last time the government ever solved a problem it did not first create?
Not my daddy. Politicians are hired to vote the will of their constituents, not to play a father figure for the poor, ignorant masses.
We are supposed to be equal under the law, but we are not supposed to be equal in everything.
But the government isn't entirely composed of those who are elected. And why do you believe the minority is poor and ignorant? They definitely aren't the majority because otherwise they would just vote in their politicians, right?
Not my daddy. Politicians are hired to vote the will of their constituents, not to play a father figure for the poor, ignorant masses.
We are supposed to be equal under the law, but we are not supposed to be equal in everything.
But the government isn't entirely composed of those who are elected. And why do you believe the minority is poor and ignorant? They definitely aren't the majority because otherwise they would just vote in their politicians, right?
Where do you get this 'minority/majority' crap from what I said? Politicians are supposed to enact the will of their constituents, not to protect us from ourselves. That should be rather easy to understand.
But the government isn't entirely composed of those who are elected.
Correct, some of the more important positions are appointed by those who are elected.
Quote:
And why do you believe the minority is poor and ignorant? They definitely aren't the majority because otherwise they would just vote in their politicians, right? smile
Isn't that what they have been doing? The corporations vote in enough of their people to keep getting the breaks and the free stuff they want... the lower classes seem to be voting in enough people to get the free stuff they want... and the middle class must not have voted in anybody because we keep getting crap on a stick.
A lot of "the free stuff" people talk about are given to keep some resemblance of peace. The ultra rich do not want a total implosion of our nation and dole out just enough to appease. It's not all together a liberal thing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns).
Chicago allows guns, although under strict regulations.
Chicago has historically had strict gun laws, laws in the surrounding parts of Illinois were much laxer — enabling middlemen to supply the criminals in Chicago with guns they purchased elsewhere. Forty three percent of the guns seized by law enforcement in Chicago were originally purchased in other parts of Illinois. And even if the state had stricter gun laws, Illinois is not an island either. The remaining fifty seven percent of Chicago guns all came from out of state, most significantly from nearby Indiana and distant Mississippi — neither of which are known for strict gun laws.
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives. – Jackie Robinson
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns).
Chicago allows guns, although under strict regulations.
Chicago has historically had strict gun laws, laws in the surrounding parts of Illinois were much laxer — enabling middlemen to supply the criminals in Chicago with guns they purchased elsewhere. Forty three percent of the guns seized by law enforcement in Chicago were originally purchased in other parts of Illinois. And even if the state had stricter gun laws, Illinois is not an island either. The remaining fifty seven percent of Chicago guns all came from out of state, most significantly from nearby Indiana and distant Mississippi — neither of which are known for strict gun laws.
Proving yet again that stricter gun laws do not work.
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns).
Chicago allows guns, although under strict regulations.
Chicago has historically had strict gun laws, laws in the surrounding parts of Illinois were much laxer — enabling middlemen to supply the criminals in Chicago with guns they purchased elsewhere. Forty three percent of the guns seized by law enforcement in Chicago were originally purchased in other parts of Illinois. And even if the state had stricter gun laws, Illinois is not an island either. The remaining fifty seven percent of Chicago guns all came from out of state, most significantly from nearby Indiana and distant Mississippi — neither of which are known for strict gun laws.
Proving yet again that stricter gun laws do not work.
What yet again? It's proving that area's that don't have strict gun laws in the U.S. are supplying guns to criminals in area's of the U.S. that do. Comprendo Amigo?
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives. – Jackie Robinson
Proving yet again that stricter gun laws do not work.
According to this website the top 15 most dangerous cities to live in 2014 were...
15. Wilmington, DE 14. Memphis, TN 13. Atlantic City, NJ 12. St. Louis, MO 11. Chelsea, MA 10. Newburgh, NY 9. Oakland, CA 8. Chester, PA 7. Bessemer, AL 6. Detroit, MI 5. Saginaw MI 4. West Mephis, AR 3. Camden, NJ 2. Flint, MI 1. East St. Louis, IL
What that tells me, other than don't move to Michigan, is that there are a wide variety of stances on gun control laws there... maybe, just maybe, gun laws are only a part of it..
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns).
Chicago allows guns, although under strict regulations.
Chicago has historically had strict gun laws, laws in the surrounding parts of Illinois were much laxer — enabling middlemen to supply the criminals in Chicago with guns they purchased elsewhere. Forty three percent of the guns seized by law enforcement in Chicago were originally purchased in other parts of Illinois. And even if the state had stricter gun laws, Illinois is not an island either. The remaining fifty seven percent of Chicago guns all came from out of state, most significantly from nearby Indiana and distant Mississippi — neither of which are known for strict gun laws.
Proving yet again that stricter gun laws do not work.
What yet again? It's proving that area's that don't have strict gun laws in the U.S. are supplying guns to criminals in area's of the U.S. that do. Comprendo Amigo?
I think you meant 'entiendes amigo?'
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are. Dtuigeann tú cara?
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are.
So if we can't have a perfect system we should have no system? Yo no hablo.
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are.
So if we can't have a perfect system we should have no system? Yo no hablo.
I can almost guarantee that in Chicago this weekend, there will be 10 shootings (in a city that doesn't allow guns).
Chicago allows guns, although under strict regulations.
Chicago has historically had strict gun laws, laws in the surrounding parts of Illinois were much laxer — enabling middlemen to supply the criminals in Chicago with guns they purchased elsewhere. Forty three percent of the guns seized by law enforcement in Chicago were originally purchased in other parts of Illinois. And even if the state had stricter gun laws, Illinois is not an island either. The remaining fifty seven percent of Chicago guns all came from out of state, most significantly from nearby Indiana and distant Mississippi — neither of which are known for strict gun laws.
Proving yet again that stricter gun laws do not work.
What yet again? It's proving that area's that don't have strict gun laws in the U.S. are supplying guns to criminals in area's of the U.S. that do. Comprendo Amigo?
I think you meant 'entiendes amigo?'
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are. Dtuigeann tú cara?
Who said anything about outlawing guns? You're making false statements that don't apply to the discussion.
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives. – Jackie Robinson
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are.
So if we can't have a perfect system we should have no system? Yo no hablo.
We have a system.
How could you possibly know the system..You seem oblivious that Chicago allows guns but not sales.
Step to own a firearm in Chicago....
1. Send for a Firearm Owners Identification Card. You can’t get into a bar without ID and you can’t get a gun without an Illinois State Police–issued FOID. Fill out the application and tape on a head shot that doesn’t make you look like a maniac. Cost $10 Wait time Up to 30 days
2. Complete a firearms safety course. State-certified instructors (most gun ranges offer the class) teach the basics, from the safest direction to point a gun (yes, there is one) to proper aim. Cost $125–$135 (includes course, gun rental and ammunition) Wait time Four hours of class; one hour at a range
3. Apply for a Chicago Firearms Permit. Along with the signed affidavit from the firearms instructor, submit the yellow CFP application (available at chicagopolice.org) at the police records division, 4770 South Kedzie Avenue. Afterward, grab some Crazy Bread from the Little Caesars in the same strip mall. Cost $100 Wait time Up to 30 days
4. Purchase a gun. Once the CFP arrives, it’s time to go shop-ping! Gun sales are banned in the city, so a trip to the ’burbs is necessary. Cost $300–$400 for used guns; $5 background check Wait time 72 hours
5. Register the firearm. Very important: A new gun must be registered within five business days of purchase. Miss that deadline and your brand-new firearm is deemed unregisterable. Fill out the form (available at chicagopolice.org) with details like serial number, barrel length and when you carried it into the city, and file it at the 4770 South Kedzie Avenue building (but leave the gun at home, Yosemite Sam). You can’t travel with the gun until you receive the registration, but you can keep it in your home. Cost $15 Wait time Up to 30 days for the registration to turn up in your mailbox.
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives. – Jackie Robinson
I guess you'd rely on the porous southern border to stop guns if they outlaw them in the US? I guess you can't see that people will still bring in guns illegally, no matter what the laws are.
So if we can't have a perfect system we should have no system? Yo no hablo.
How could you possibly know the system..You seem oblivious that Chicago allows guns but not sales.
Step to own a firearm in Chicago....
1. Send for a Firearm Owners Identification Card. You can’t get into a bar without ID and you can’t get a gun without an Illinois State Police–issued FOID. Fill out the application and tape on a head shot that doesn’t make you look like a maniac. Cost $10 Wait time Up to 30 days
2. Complete a firearms safety course. State-certified instructors (most gun ranges offer the class) teach the basics, from the safest direction to point a gun (yes, there is one) to proper aim. Cost $125–$135 (includes course, gun rental and ammunition) Wait time Four hours of class; one hour at a range
3. Apply for a Chicago Firearms Permit. Along with the signed affidavit from the firearms instructor, submit the yellow CFP application (available at chicagopolice.org) at the police records division, 4770 South Kedzie Avenue. Afterward, grab some Crazy Bread from the Little Caesars in the same strip mall. Cost $100 Wait time Up to 30 days
4. Purchase a gun. Once the CFP arrives, it’s time to go shop-ping! Gun sales are banned in the city, so a trip to the ’burbs is necessary. Cost $300–$400 for used guns; $5 background check Wait time 72 hours
5. Register the firearm. Very important: A new gun must be registered within five business days of purchase. Miss that deadline and your brand-new firearm is deemed unregisterable. Fill out the form (available at chicagopolice.org) with details like serial number, barrel length and when you carried it into the city, and file it at the 4770 South Kedzie Avenue building (but leave the gun at home, Yosemite Sam). You can’t travel with the gun until you receive the registration, but you can keep it in your home. Cost $15 Wait time Up to 30 days for the registration to turn up in your mailbox.
So, you're for guns for the rich only? That's an extra $260 just for the right to have it? No wonder people go elsewhere. I'd much rather use $50 in gas to go elsewhere. Good thing those gun laws stop all the shootings in Chicago, huh?
"It's proving that area's that don't have strict gun laws in the U.S. are supplying guns to criminals in area's of the U.S. that do."
So, what prevents another country without strict gun laws supplying guns to criminals? We can't even keep people, drugs, or other contraband out.
Guess what? Guns are being smuggled into Mexico and other countries from the U.S. not the other way around.
And you don't think that would change overnight if the US imposed very strict gun laws? I'd have figured "Just say no" would have taught you something.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
It's proving that area's that don't have strict gun laws in the U.S. are supplying guns to criminals in area's of the U.S. that do. Comprendo Amigo?