DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mike Pettine..continued !

You could phrase it that way. Or, you could say that a guy like Banner who had many years of experience in evaluating and helping draft talent saw a true need for such a study, while an NFL rookie HC and GM didn't see that.

Depends on your point of view I guess. Anyway, we'll all have to live with that decision.

Besides... what's $100k to these guys anyway? $100k probably was the expense account total that included 4 meals, private jet transportation, limo service, a couple high priced call girls, and something nice for the wife and kids back home? Just spit ballin'

I can't say anything really jumps out at me as a "need to fix" with Pettine..... but if I had to pick one thing (and I'm not 100% sure what Pettine can do about this), I'd like to see this team take on a bit of an edge, a little nastiness with this defense that is supposed to be so good. Not talking dirty or hurting people or anything like that, just a team that other teams don't look forward to playing.

This is personal preference, but I wish he would show more fire on the sidelines. He's just kind of a bump on a log. I think players respond to some fire and get pumped up. I absolutely love when Bellyache pulls a position group aside and gets in their ear.

If he had many years of experience in evaluating and helping draft talent why was...

One of Banner's first big decisions as Browns CEO was to hire Lombardi, a move that now proved to be a mistake.

The Banner/Lombardi duo had a chance to land a quarterback high in last year's draft, but they passed on Geno Smith. The Jets' QB may not have been lights out, but he was better than anyone the Browns had.

Hired, then fired Rob Chudzinski

In the end, Banner's failure in Cleveland could probably be boiled down to one moment -- the moment that then-Oregon head coach Chip Kelly told the Browns no.

Link

Why would they trust Banners evaluations after those disaster?

It wasn't Banners evaluation. Surely we all understand the importance of the QB position in the NFL and the difficulty at success at the position.

Surely you aren't suggesting that a rookie HC and a rookie GM felt that they were a better judge of QB talent than having experts analytically evaluating the position to help them. Sometimes I believe people just outsmart themselves, and to this point, that seems to be the case.

DC and Rishuz, I'll do this as a two'fer cuz I think your guys points are kind of similar.

DC to your point, I think there is a lot he can and is doing toward that end, and that is instilling a sense of confidence within that unit, and the team as a whole. If we're able to shore up our run D this year, I think we'll see more dominant defensive performances like we did in the first Cincy game.

Rishuz, I think Pet has some of that sideline fire. I too like a coach who shows some emotion like that and I agree it can be a motivator. If its even in his personality, I'm not quite sure the team is quite ready for more fire and brimstone. We're still building that foundation, and building means teaching. Chewing someone out while a motivator, isn't a good teaching method. Of course it doesn't always mean he has to be chewing someone out, obviously he can show more positive emotions. I think that will come more and more as HE becomes more solid in his role as the HC.

I know every regime change they come in and they talk about instilling a winning culture... I think under Chud/Horton/Turner they made an honest effort and made some headway... but I feel like under Pet's tenure, a change in culture is actually happening. People complain about our run based offense and all, but sometimes you just need to get back to the basics. Its not really something that has been tried and committed to in prior years.

Well when I see Bridgewater hold up the Lombardi Trophy then that would be the case, there are just so many QB needy teams out there not using those expert analytically evaluations if they were that good wouldn't every team have a Franchise QB every season?

Even Minny was going to take JM over Bridewater, I guess the experts didn't help them either.

Have you outsmarted yourself yet or still perplexed?

No, I'm not perplexed. I think all GM's make mistakes and make some good moves. I haven't seen any report that says Minni would have taken JFF over Bridgewater.



Some teams become innovators and some teams don't. I'm not sure how many teams have even attempted to do this. I just know that based on last years outcome, it would have been a smart move.

No joke....I think I did. Or it was tried to trade up for Johnny but we got him. I'll try to look for it later when I have more time. But still, they might have their franchise guy and we have questions marks.

I think you are right but it's a catch-22.. there is only so much you can do to install a winning culture until you are actually, you know... winning.

The best way to install a winning culture is draft good players, maintain continuity, and start winning.. from there it becomes self-fulfilling.

I think this team realizes they were 7-4 last year with a shot to make a playoff run when the wheels fell off. they know they can win some games. It's hard to predict what will happen if the come out and start 0-3.. they could easily slip right back into the same old mindset.

And I guess that's the point I'm making. I believe that Farmer has done some good things. I think he has made some mistakes. As a rookie at the GM position, it's not like it's unrealistic to expect those new at such high positions will have some growing pains. It's not like I'm calling for anyone's job or feel that people can't learn from their mistakes.

What I'm hoping for is that when Farmer does something good, he uses that in the future to replicate that success and when he makes mistakes, he learns from them to grow at his job. That would benefit us all.

And let's face it, even if Minni would have moved ahead of us and drafted Manziel and we had ended up with Bridgewater, it wouldn't have made Minni's mistake any less than our own. A mistake is a mistake no matter who makes it.

I believe right now, had Jerry Jones moved up to draft JFF, everyone on this board would be laughing right now. It's much easier for people to do when it's not us.

Part of the problem, when you are the GM for a bad team trying to crawl out of the cellar, is that all of your mistakes are magnified...

The Patriots over the last 10 years have a series of very questionable second round picks and even a couple first round picks but Belichick and Brady just keep plugging along winning 11, 12, 13 games a year and getting deep into the playoffs. Think their fans even remember the names of those draft busts? I doubt it. Yet most Browns fans can name almost all of ours. Because we count on each and every one of them to be a piece that pulls us up...

100% agree.

I might get blasted by some, but I think Hoyer's biggest contribution last year and what for me looks like will be the pivotal period in this franchise turning around, is the mental toughness and fortitude he showed early on, games like TEN where we came back from a crazy deficit, even the first PIT game! I kinda felt like the early part of last season threw the "same old Browns" Monkey off our back. I don't think many QB's could have done that, and I think Pet was actually pretty lucky we had him when we did.

Maybe I'm just romanticizing the situation, but I think these guys are buying in to an identity. We as fans may not understand exactly what that identity is, and we may make fun of "play like a Brown"... but whatever it means, it means SOMETHING to them and seems to be working.

I don't see anything untrue or worrisome in those quotes. In fact, they are very matter-of-fact, no b.s. truth to the core.


Would everybody love to have a super star QB? Sure!

Then, there is reality - which says that most teams just aren't going to find one.... the rest need to actually build a team.

j/c:

FWIW....

Vikings draft Teddy Bridgewater after missing Manziel

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...missing-manziel

Thanks for the link. It just goes to show that some days it's better to be lucky than good. lol

the flaw in that thinking is that you dont stop looking. the way farmer did this year. if you are not SURE you have the man you bring in the best chance that might become that guy. no matter the odds you keep trying.

I don't really disagree with your point DC. But I believe it runs a lot deeper than that. Sure, our fan base understands how important the draft is for a team that needs to be built.

But when you have such a horrific record of drafting QB's in round one, fans will dissect that and have growing expectations. Where I think fans often make a mistake is when they use that frustration by feeling all of that is to blame on the current regime. While some find it hard to do, we must be able to separate those facts to each regime and not lump them all together.

He didn't stop looking... he looked and there were none there. Continuing to look won't make any appear, lol!

Who were these experts, though? Are they even involved in football? Are they just number crunchers? My experience with consultants is they are idiots. Many organizations hire consultants because they think they need to. Because they think the consultants are smarter than their actual employees. It's almost never the case. And consultants provide cover if a project goes bad. You can always point to the consultants as the culprits.

If anyone likes a good laugh, google demotivational posters. These are the opposite of the motivational posters that were popular 10-15 years ago. The consulting one is one of my personal favorites.

I'm not saying that's what happened here. For all I know, the guys hired were a group of ex-NFL scouts. They could have also been a group of dawgtalkers. Consultants, in general, at least in the real world, very rarely know squat.

I apologize in advance to any consultants on this board.

But I'm mainly talking about the big 5 (is that what it is now) type guys ... the PriceWaterHouse, Accenture type guys. Kudos to those businesses for being very successful and becoming very rich to what amounts to a bunch of hot air.

Ain't that the truth.

Vikings draft Teddy Bridgewater after missing Manziel



Vikings draft Teddy Bridgewater after missing Manziel The Minnesota Vikings failed to trade back into the first round to draft quarterback Johnny Manziel, but were able to jump back up to nab Louisville's Teddy Bridgewater.

Link

Perplexing huh!

Did you read the rest of the replies? You're a little late to the party. lol

j/c:

Wow, this thread is all over the place. Most of the posts are pretty good, though. I enjoyed reading most of it, other than Vambo's one-sided rhetoric.

A few thoughts:

--I don't have too many complaints about Pet. I wish he would spend more time developing the culture rather than talking about it, but that's not a big deal. I like how he gives guys a chance to move up the roster. I think he holds guys accountable. I don't think he is the smartest guy, but if he has good assistants, I think he can win. I like him thus far.

--There was a report that said the Vikings tried to trade up for Manziel, but were there any quotes from the Vikings FO to verify that report?

--Purp.......gotta disagree w/your take on Farmer's comments. They are evidence of his mindset in that he doesn't value the position as much as he should.

--The article Vambo posted about Banner being the one to hire the consulting group and Farmer perhaps ignoring that report is very damning. See, I think Banner was a very intelligent and shrewd man. He got a first round pick for the bum TRich. He traded picks in a weak draft to get higher picks in the next year's STRONG draft. He brought in Hoyer w/out a big contract. He hired strong people and wasn't threatened by them. He realized he needed help and to be thorough while searching for a qb in a very strong qb class. He hired consultants. Man, we screwed up when we fired him.

In comes Farmer. He has NO experience in the draft. His job description for other teams was scouting NFL players. He wasn't part of KC's draft team. He has a defensive mind-set. He makes dumb comments. He most likely ignores the work of the consulting group. He picks Johnny. Wow!!!! I am now even more convinced of how terrible he is at evaluating qbs.

What's funny is Vambo posted that article to make Farmer look good, but it's about as damning of an article that I can fathom.

Now, I am making another connection. While Banner had no problem bringing in strong-willed FO personnel and coaches, Farmer seems to have an issue w/those personality types. I firmly believe that Shanny is gone because Farmer and his minions stepped on the toes of the coaches. Why hire bright minds if you are intimidated by them or want feel the need to tell them who to play, what plays to call, etc? And what kills me......he had no experience in the draft or as an offensive player or coach. I am starting to lean towards this guy being a dud.

I have to edit this to add: Having strong-willed intelligent coaches like Shanny might bother some people. Those people deal w/their issues by bringing in guys who are less threatening because they can't handle someone who really knows the job and is confident in that knowledge.

Look at who we brought in. Flip. No experience as an OC. Gee, it's all coming together for me.

Then we hire O'Connell as our QB coach. Wanna know how much coaching experience he has at ANY LEVEL? ZERO. ZIP. ZILCH! Are you kidding me? This is the same guy who worked w/Manziel prior to the draft and then we have people complaining about Manziel's mechanics and skills.

I apologize because I have to admit I am fired up right now. That article just struck me the wrong way. Things are coming together. Big ego, not much experience, needing to prove himself, stubborn, surrounding himself w/inferior guys who won't challenge him, forcing his uneducated views on guys who are more qualified, and then making dumb decisions.

I rue the day we fired Banner and replaced him w/this narrow-minded and insecure wannabe.

Better late than never.

Here is the article that a couple of dudes posted the link to:



Read it. Read it carefully. Read the parts about game tapes. NFL ready.

Damn man!!!!

Get over it.

Are you talking about Pettine or Farmer?

I was talking about Pet when I was mentioning how much I liked him.

I was talking about Farmer in regards to ignoring the consulting group, the choice of coaches, lack of experience w/the draft, etc.

Look, now that I have had time to think about it..........I realize my comments are going to upset a lot of you guys. I don't wanna fight about it. I just don't like the picture that is being painted by the evidence. It's just my opinion and I am NOT asking for anyone to agree w/me.

I am simply realizing that the more I hear about Pet, the more I like him as our coach and the more I hear about Farmer, the less I like him as our GM.

But Pett is the one that hired Flip and O'Connell. Farmer didn't have anything to do with it.

Pett also didn't shed a tear when Shanny left.

I don't see Pett as the type to hire yes men.

I was trending toward this thinking. What pulls me back is I think this maybe the best twosome Browns had since returning. It isn't all peach-n-cream, but at least Pet is getting tools he can use. "Best" is not a glowing praise either. It would not take much to better.

Farmer didn't have a great showing with his first round picks. How many former Cleveland GMs didn't do any better? How many scored with the first round nosediving on the others? At the very least the team was watchable most of last year.

There was never a problem between Pet and Shanny. Pet is keeping w/the company line and that is not an insult. He is doing what he has to do. You have no idea how politics reign in coaching........and that is so utterly true even at the high school and small college levels, nevermind big time universities and the NFL.

Regardless, the ignoring of the consultants is a huge indictment on Farmer and his staff. I know no one wants to hear it, but Banner had us on the right track. He simply did not receive enough time. He was very smart. Very thorough. Hiring a consultant on an issue that he needed help proves that. Farmer's ego---I actually think his lack of confidence--led to him having try to prove himself and ignore guys who had more knowledge of the quarterbacks than he did.

Again, I realize that almost no one will agree w/me. I ain't trying to change your mind, but I feel it is my right to speak my mind.

Thank you.

So as not to repeat so called mistake you then should want to give Farmer and Co. the TIME they need correct?

Banner also passed on a chance to get a good QB.

Good QB? In 2013...Manual; Geno Smith; Glennon; Barkley; Nassib; Tyler Wilson; Landry Jones; Sorenson; Dysert; Danniels; Renfree?

What good QBs were available when Banner had his draft?

I hated those QBs and said so. Dispute that. Go ahead.

I put my full attention into the following draft because I SAID that there were so many viable options in that class.

Are you really forgetting all of this or are you simply trying to mislead posters.........again?

" The Browns had three starting quarterbacks during Banner's only full season in Cleveland, with Jason Campbell, Brandon Weeden and Brian Hoyer all getting at least one start. The Banner/Lombardi duo had a chance to land a quarterback high in last year's draft, but they passed on Geno Smith. The Jets' QB may not have been lights out, but he was better than anyone the Browns had. "

Link

Was there any QB's in this draft that the Browns could have gotten better than Geno? Would you take Geno over McCown and JM?

Can someone be banned for..............


Oh, never mind.

I figure you would be the one who would know you've been banned more than any other poster I know.

Just like you if you can't disprove the argument you go to the stand by PERSONAL Attacks.