DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh McCown...

It would be nice, and unprecedented if I may add, if things did break our way for once. We certainly are due and being the type of fans we are deserving of a few good breaks.

Secondary coach Jeff Hafley gives different perspective on Browns offense

It’s given secondary coach Jeff Hafley some mixed emotions.

“I thought McCown had an unbelievable day,” Hafley said after Sunday’s practice. “He was dropping some balls in, making some throws. That excites us. We want to see that.

“But at the same time, we weren’t happy. Because balls were caught on us.”

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...69-107648a577f0

Joe Thomas' opinion that starting Johnny Manziel would've sent a 'playing for next year' vibe carried weight with Cleveland Browns coaches

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/12/joe_thomas_opinion_that_starti.html

pfft joe is a divider.

I think it's more peoples "hopes" than their "belief". If that's there actual beliefs, then I'd have to agree with you.

No doubt. I completely agree.

I am not looking for nor expecting a resurrection from McCown. What I am hoping for is that he performs like the 20th rated Qb in the NFL. If he can do that or better then I think we are a playoff team. If he plays like the 24th or 25th rated Qb then we don't.

I don't think anyone thinks that if McCown comes up with the best season that he is capable of producing that he will crack the top 15 Qb;s in the NFL.

If the defense plays great and offense runs the ball consistently and McCown is able to rely on his experience to matriculate the ball down the field he could be top half... if we routinely put him in positions where he has to go win games with his arm, he won't survive.

If you take away Chicago in 2013, he hasn't really been with any great offenses.

Last year's Tampa team scored 20 points and under 13 times (YIKES)

The other two stops where he had significant playing time was in Oakland and Arizona, and both times the teams were horrible.

I don't think he's coming into a horrible situation. It just seems unlikely that he is going to lead us to anything more than 9 wins because the lack of playmakers on his side of the ball, on top of playing in the best division in the sport.

I think the situation here aside from the offensive talent dropoff is better than Chicago in 2013. You don't have the giant elephant sitting in the room with Jay Cutler. Yes Johnny has his baggage, but he also doesn't hold one of the worst contracts in NFL history. I think Marc Trestman didn't command a room like a head coach should. Mike Pettine seems that way right now, but of course we will see how tha turns out. I think there's a bigger youth movement with the Browns than with the 2013 Bears which was an aging group. This Browns team is young and ready to blossom. Remember that there were still a lot of guys on that Bears team who played in that Super Bowl back in early 2007.

Totally different situations.

My point is that he is a similar situation w/our offense.

I'd have to go back and do a hard look those Arizona and Oakland teams, but I don't know if he came into a youthful situation like he is with the Browns. Doesn't mean it will equal winning, but I really believe there are some hungry guys on this team, and even some of these vets (Witner, Hawk, etc) aren't just collecting checks.

I've been following Witner and Hawk on twitter and instagram over the offseason and it's incredible the work they put in. Makes me happy to have guys like that leading the charge for this team. We've had our fair share of check collectors over the years so this is a nice change up.

I was speaking of our offensive talent.

Offensive weapons? Not a chance. Marshall, Jeffrey and Forte at that point in time were better than anything we have right now. Our OL is far superior to what they had on the field though.

Like I said, there were people irate that Trestman went back to Cutler while McCown was doing well. If you remember it's the season where the Bears went on to lose the finale to the Green Bay Packers for the division. It was a great game but Cutler failed to deliver in some big moments.

2004 Cardinals had Anquan Boldin, old Emmitt Smith and Larry Fitgerald as a rook.

The 2007 Raiders were a dumpster fire that this current Browns team is head and shoulders beyond.

Top to bottom I'd take this Browns roster factoring in age, above the 2013 Bears, 2004 Cardinals, and the 2007 Raiders, even if Chicago and Arizona had better offensive weapons.

Again, I have to disagree w/you about our offensive talent. And again, I think you are ignoring McCown's own problems in regards to the failures of all those offenses.

I am okay w/us disagreeing and I am not trying to change your mind. I am only replying because I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say.

Hope that's cool?

No, I wasn't factoring in the QB as much as the rest of the roster...

I agree that the Arizona and Chicago teams he started games for had better weapons. Hard to argue with Brandon Marshall, Matt Forte, Alshon Jeffrey, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and even an aging Emmitt Smith.

But as far as 1 through 53? I will take the Browns all day over any team he has played for.

I don't know why you are disagreeing with me when I agree that 2 of the teams he played for had more weapons.... I can't agree with you on that Oakland team because that was a putrid squad..

My point.........rather than disagreeing...........is that I think many of you are ignoring McCown's own issues when evaluating the problems of the offenses he has played for in the past.

Comparing this teams offense to McCown's other teams:

RB is essentially a push. Some people might be higher on Forte than me. He is a good receiving back but I have never been impressed with his running ability.

Wr - we are clearly last.

Oline - We are clearly the best.


Guess this season will be a great indicator of what is more important, an oline or Wr's

Are you saying we actually have some??...

Forte is one of the best, and most consistent, backs in the ENTIRE NFL.

Forte is/was a beast.

Our running game is better than all the others McCown had, though. I mean, Emmitt Smith was running on empty with the Cardinals, The Bucs have a miserable o-line and Martin hasn't done anything outside of his first year, and Oakland...idk, he played there when they were totally devoid of talent.

That being said, I'm not sure it means much. Unless pressure really means so much between him being good and bad, I think he'll still make mistakes because that's who he is as a QB.

I think what he means about Forte is that he's decent with carries... Career 4.2 is pretty good. It's not elite, but it's pretty good.

What shoots him up with the elite RB's is what he can do in the passing game. He's very good. It's also why if you play in a PPR league in fantasy he can have monster games.

Even then, he's a better offensive weapon than anything we have at this point.

I totally understand Vers's point about McCown's own physical limitations, but I think some are arguing that he may actually be a decent fit, so long as the running game is good. Which you can say for a lot of guys. Hoyer was good in our offense until we stopped being able to run the ball.

McCown isn't Aaron Rodgers who can still put up 30 points with no running game. Or Brady, or Brees or any of the elite guys.

My argument is that he is being surrounded by a really good roster, even if we don't have great weapons. We still have a ton of youth. A better offensive line than he's ever seen, and an up and coming defense. If he can keep this offense with its head above water, maybe the defense can help us win a few games. I honestly just want to see this team win enough games where the media doesn't run another regime out of town, because I'm just tired of firing guys because we aren't winning. When there's a serious problem in the structure and you aren't winning? Sure. But just to get rid of a coach or an entire regime because the record isn't there is foolish at this point.

I think the leash should have a little extra slack on it for Pettine. 7-9 in his first year with minimal QB play. If he can get to 7 or more again with McCown at QB, I think he's proven that with a true upgrade at the position that we may have our guy.

Where I disagree with you is that the media and fan base has any responsibility for running anyone out of town.

No matter our record, no matter who the players, HC or GM have been, the fan base has always turned out at the stadium. Merchandise has always sold well. The bottom line in financial terms have never suffered.

The one responsible is the owner, no matter who it has been. If you actually believe that billionaire NFL owners really care what we say when their bottom line does not suffer as a result, I believe you give the fans far too much credit, or possibly too much of the blame in this instance.

I don't think so. I couldn't speculate to what degree, I assume each owner is different, but they don't live and operate in a vacuum... I know every fan base complains, but when you are losing and the fan base seems to be getting more and more restless, even if they are buying tickets.. owners notice. If the focus of the fan base attention is on the GM or the coach, the owner is aware of that... and I would bet that it impacts decisions..

I would expect that to be the case also, DC. Even though the bottom line may be unaffected, I believe the value of the franchise would be negatively impacted...

You might want to ask Haslam about that cost. He paid over a billion for the same team we are discussing as "being to loud and complaining". I didn't see where he got a discount because of it.

Owners want success. They'll do what they believe is right in order to get it. We don't enter into that discussion.

Damn good counter punch.

What is the value of the Jaguars franchise versus that of say, the Patriots? I don't pretend to have that answer, but what are the factors that make one franchise more valuable than another? I submit to you that the fan base is one such factor...

Winning. Championships and market size. The fan base is a factor. Are they financially supporting the team by filling the stadium and buying merchandise?

Where we disagree is does the fan base complaining factor in. I say not as long as they're spending the money.

Now we don't have a huge market and are a perennial losing team. On those factors it certainly helps establish the worth of the franchise. But because some of the fan base complains? Seriously?

There will always be complaints of some nature or other. I agree with you that at this level, the FO would likely be unaffected. I believe though, that the original discussion was based on "restless" (ref. The 3 Stooges) on which I based my post. I expect that Haslam paid a lot of attention to that comment! According to a few folks, we are the laughing stock of the NFL/national media. Does this not make the FO pay attention?

In actuality, Browns fans are our own worst enemy. We support through thick and thin. It doesn't take much to sell seats and advertisement. Art Modell took advantage of it with a capital "A."

Do we ever see a super star? Do we see a constant turning of young players? Haslam is putting together a watchable product. My thinking is he wants attention focus away from him. I'm curious what his M.O. becomes once this team wins 9 and 10 games. Content? This franchise can very well become the Browns of old. Every year we fall just short needing that one more guy. Modell II?

Tab, I'm looking at it from Haslam's point of view. Don't you remember the Modell years? When things starting going well, Art always looked for a way to cut it off. Will Haslam follow Modell's footsteps or Kraft and Rooney?

I don't believe we have to worry about Haslam being anything like Modell.

There is only one main concern I have about Haslam. It has nothing to do with him as a person, but the type of business he comes from.

In the truck stop world, the product, fuel, is provided. You have no experience in building a quality product, just marketing a product provided to you. In the fuel business, everyone pretty much has an equal product to begin with and the only thing left to do is have a great marketing strategy to sell that product. To me, that's making a brand, not building a quality product.

The NFL and building a quality franchise is night and day different than the truck stop world. That's my only question in regards to Haslam.

As with most corporations, the key in all of this is to understand your limitations and surround yourself with people who have the qualifications to make the sound decisions needed to build such a franchise.

Looking at the resume's of the people he has hired, we hope that some of the experience lacking on those resume's won't hinder this process. If Haslam is good at identifying those types of people, we will be just fine.

Well to be fair, while Haslam doesn't have to MAKE the gas he sells, he's not the kid that pumps it for you either.

He didn't get P/FJ to 28 billion by accident. It took some skills and some smarts.

If you got the smarts and you exercise good judgement on who you hire, you have a great chance of success.

And the guy(s) or gals you hire don't necessarily have to have a ton experience, just the right experience.

Farmer, on paper has that, so does Alex Schiner (sp) and Pettine.

But they are all light on years in their current roles. I think that trio will be fine when allowed to grow (warts and mistakes and all) over time

JMO of course.

Good point Pitt.

He is a commodities broker!!

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't see how Robert Kraft selling food products or Jerry Jones selling oil or Daniel Snyder running a law firm is any closer to owning an NFL team. In fact I can't think of too many businesses that are similar to owning an NFL team.. truck stops are as close to it as any other because I would think that a service business is closer to the NFL than is a production business. In the end, all business succeeds for the same few reasons, having the right people in the right place and giving them the freedom to do their job.

Actually had you quoted the end of my post rather than the beginning, you would see I said a very similar thing.

But no, building a product of value and marketing a commodity aren't even close to the same business model.

Maybe someone should tell Haslam. Perhaps he's not aware of this.

I'm quite sure he is aware of this. That's why Banner and company were disposed of so quickly. He soon felt he did not have the right people in charge to build a winning franchise. Now whether he was correct about that decision can be debated. But it seems obvious to me that he wants to get the right people in place to do this job.

The things that could be done in a commodity type business have been addressed. New uniforms, "the fan experience". All of the marketing experience that Haslam brought to the table has been used to this point.

I didn't expect this was big news or some great point of debate. Haslam will do his best to get the right people to build a winning franchise. But the business model he came from never entailed building a top notch product. The product was provided to him.