DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Represent.us - Have you seen this?

Great post/topic. Thanks!

Besides corrupt politicians, what else do we agree on?

I wholeheartedly disagree. I point back to the original point of this thread. "Conservative" and "Liberal" in the sense they are utilized by both parties today are perverted to the point of being offensive to the original meaning of the words.

To get ahead in either party today, it's simple. You must fall in line with the lobbyists who fund you.

Well when you have the time, I'd like to know why this country was so much better 20 years ago.. y'know, back in the day.

We must be wary of looking at the past through rose colored glasses. It's like old muscle cars of the 1960s. They look and sound beautiful and tug at the heart strings of a bygone era, but they perform terribly (both efficiency and performance wise) compared to today's cars. Heck you can buy a Fiesta ST that would outperform most of them, and it has a 97 cubic inch motor. No I didn't miss a number in front of that displacement figure

-The 1990s economic boom in the United States was an extended period of economic prosperity, during which GDP increased continuously for almost ten years (the longest recorded expansion in the history of the United States). It commenced after the end of the early 1990s recession in March 1991, and ended in March 2001.
The US economy has been unable to replicate the successes of the 1990s thus far in the 21st century.

1995
Cost of a new home: $158,700.00
Median Household Income: $34,076.00
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.32 (as of 1/1/95)
Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $1.15
Cost of a dozen eggs: $1.16
Cost of a gallon of Milk: $2.96

1995 Middle Class...
http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/heres-why-the-middle-class-feels-squeezed/

National Debt in 1995 was $5trillion
Today $18+ trillion

I grow fatigued.

gage I agree. As I'm nearly 50, it is something I think about.. it's very natural to look back on your youth as a "better time".. heck if I had no bills, no cares, minimal understanding of what going on in politics, was playing sports every day and dating cheerleaders, I think I'd look upon right now as a good time...

As for your car example.. for years we heard about how they may have been less efficient but they were SOOOO safe with all of that American steel around you... until somebody did the youtube video of how the old muscle car compared to the new sedan in crash tests.. it was ugly.

That's how I spend my days...

Well, if you miss the Gold Age of the 1990's that badly, at least you've got another Clinton in the White House to look forward to. That should spark up some nostalgia for you. Until then, just pop in a Hootie & The Blowfish CD and do the Tomahawk Chop.

I'm 31 so still a bit of a youngin', but would be lying if I didn't think I'd have it a bit better had I been 31 in the early 90s instead of now.

40 and I can go at it, and hell may freeze over with this post, but I do agree with him here. If you click on that link it becomes evident how much the middle class has eroded away in this country. We are quickly becoming a 2 class system. It's a big reason why socialism has a big chance to take hold in this country. If the country is full of people who "have not" then they are gonna want the govt to give em something of the "haves". Back when the middle class was strong in this country people wanted the govt and socialism out, because they believed in American Exceptionalism and the American Dream.

The middle class didn't want to steal from the rich because they believed that they too would one day become rich. I don't think that is very common thinking anymore.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Small Business can't compete with big business, so middle class start ups are almost dead. High wage jobs for those who don't have a degree are a thing of the past, those jobs are in other countries now. Education has become big business, so getting a degree means huge debt. And the Politicians (both sides) are outright owned (bought and paid for) buy big money interest... They do not represent the people anymore.

So no matter how radical you think he is, a guy like Bernie Sanders is very much needed. Movements like Represent.us are very much needed and a complete overhaul of how we run this country is very much needed.

The divides between most of us are being magnified to keep us fighting by the powers that be... This is how the Oligarchy rules.

I think the problem has evolved to the middle class getting pinched horribly by two sides that want the middle class' money. On one hand, you have the people that by and large want to live off of handouts. My wife works for a non-profit agency that sees people outright turn down jobs because they would "lose their benefits."

On the other hand, you have what we see in this thread. The upper echelon doing everything in their power to control the government and the people in it. This again leads to middle class erosion.

Something has got to give. Greed is coming in from both sides.

Making Legislative and Executive branches of govt at all levels a pit stop in your career rather than your entire career would go a long way I think.

At the very least why not institute an Up or Out program like our military does? If you can't progress past state legislature within 2 terms, you are out of political office. I'd even make it running for office, not holding it. Failed in your bid for US President two times? you can never run again. This way special interests couldn't keep funneling money to a candidate in the hopes they'd finally catch on...

This isn't a direct answer to your greed problem but I think the main factor of greed is humanities willingness to hold onto what they have. And in the case of career politicians, they need the power and favor of the R or D next to their name. They need the party to drum up votes. They need special interests to dump millions of dollars in campaign financing. All of those favors have to be repaid eventually though, leading to the system we have today.

Truth in print.

Kudos, 05... you see it with 20/20 vision, as far as I'm concerned.



In all of this, the biggest human problem I see is myopia. Both strata will suck from the Middle Class teat until there IS no Middle Class any more... and History has shown us that 'American Exceptionalism' was built from the ethics, morals, and hard work of the Middle Class.

Here we are, a full decade and a half into the 21st c... and mankind is still ruled/subjugated by the 'Seven Deadlies.' (PLEEEEEEEZE don't sidetrack this post into a Theosophical discussion, just because I made a rhetorical 'Biblical reference'...). In this particular instance, the culprit is "Greed."

My point is simply this: Throughout Time, Man- in his hubris- has repeatedly committed the same colossal mistakes, thinking that he is somehow 'better,' 'smarter,' 'sharper,' or 'more worthy' than his predecessors. And every time, it has always ended in the same bloody way.

When America's Middle Class is finally drained completely dry- and they become members of the 'Underclass,' there will be bloodshed in the mansions and halls of power. Again. Just as has happened so many times before, throughout History.

It's gotten to the point that the power brokers no longer feel the need to work in the shadows. They are boldly flaunting their machinations in the faces of those whom they wish to control, because (I suspect) they believe that we've already passed the 'tipping point' that could have stopped or slowed them.


If we haven't reached that point, we are dangerously close to it. If we have passed it, all is pretty much lost: when 300 million people rise up against 30,000 individuals, there is no power on Earth that will stop the carnage, destruction and anarchy that will ensue.

_______


This trend most recently began 30 years ago (in Modern History), and was exacerbated/accelerated by the disastrous 'Citizens United' ruling (what a demonically ironic name) that gave 'MegaCorps' (and the uber-rich that run them) the rights to openly, legally influence Public Policy on CapHill. Wall Streeters were all up in the trough too... and totaly bought-out Tim Geihtner and the Obama administration during their first 2 years in power. The 'bail out' actually DID help some Middle Class Americans.... but it helped out the Big Boys more that most would ever suspect.

...all for the sole purpose of sucking the very last drop of Mother's Milk from the teat of the (clueless) hard-working Middle Class American.

If we don't pull back from this madness- and give back the power of self-determination to John Q. Public, 2030 is going to be an extremely ugly year in 'America's ongoing story.'

Pitchforks and pyres.
"Rich Folk Roasts."
Blood in the streets.

It's coming, if we don't do something drastic RIGHT NOW. The 'Tipping Point' is upon us. It will be Rome, England, Russia & France all over again. And the saddest part of it all: We've had all of History to learn from our mistakes... but we have learned absolutely nothing.

We LET this happen to us. Through our sloth, our complacency... and through our inattention to what was truly going on right under our noses. It was there for us to see all the time. And now we're getting owned- by the very, very few at the tops of Big Agra, Big Food, Big Energy, Big Pharma, etc.

...and we could have done something about it when it began.


_____________

This time, instead of Marie Antoinette and her ilk, it will be folks like Charles and David Koch with their heads in the guillotine... and this time, their beheadings will be broadcast world-wide- in Real Time- on the World Wide Web.


You think ISIS is brutal?
Wait 'til you see what 'Joe The Plumber' can do to a Fat Cat if he reaches his breaking point.


IMHO, we are now officially at 'Zero Hour' for this fine, noble political experiment.


What we do in the next 10 years will determine if an 'America' (as we know it) will even exist in the year 2050.


Tick, tock...


.02

Funny when you say Leeches and Parasites in an eloquent way, nobody jumps up and down yelling at you.

Almost like it pays to talk with respect. Albeit, I know nothing about that on this board.

Sometimes balance and a little tact can go a long way.

And the facts remain the same.

What were you guys saying earlier about it being "who said it" more than "what was said"? Pfft.

My dad taught me several decades ago that it's not what you say, but how you say it.

I'm quite sure you comprehend that, you just don't give a damn.

Come on! Man up already...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9ff_1439084256

I work in construction management, have for over 20 years. There are THOUSANDS of decent paying jobs in construction that we can't fill. I have projects getting ready to start, $50 million, $182 million, $65 million.. and every conversation is the same from the GC, "We don't know if we can meet your schedule because our subs don't have enough people to man the job." Every single one of them.

Can't find enough plumbers willing to work for $20/hour. glass installers willing to work for $24/hour. electricians willing to work for $20+/hour... just can't find them.

I remember 15-20 years ago if you walked on a jobsite it was a running joke, the latinos were drywall and paint.. that was it. In fact the old joke used to be "What did Davie Crockett say to James Bowie at the Alamo when they saw 10,000 Mexicans on the horizon?" "Did you order drywall for today?"

Now, almost every trade is primarily manned by latinos.. that's why I get a bit upset when I hear "they do jobs that Americans don't want to do"... Americans don't want to be electricians and plumbers? With some good experience a plumber or electrician can make $80K a year or more... but it's hard work, especially until you get into supervisor roles..

Unemployed man, been that way for 9 months. he's in his late 50's and was making 35,000 a year as a warehouse manager.

No other prospects on the horizon. I offered him a full time job with a customer the other day, the location of said customer was 3 miles from his home. The money was $42,000 for roughly the same job, but with fewer employees to manage, smaller number of parts to track and a standard 40 hour week. Did I mention the benefits (health type) were equal to his former employer who laid him off.

He rejected the job saying he wanted to take a civil service exam and get a job with the state.

Maybe he gets the job with the state, maybe he doesn't, this was a bird in hand so to speak.

I think I've all but given up on trying to figure out how and why people are as they are today.

Oh yeah, did I mention he's collecting unemployment.

Apparently, since you just admitted that subcontractors can't find anyone now...

One thing I'd like to point out regarding the Latinos having those jobs, for me, as long as they came into this country legally, have a work visa or became citizens, I'm ok with it.

If I wasn't, it would be like me saying my grandfathers (who did things legally back in the day) shouldn't have been offered jobs.

http://www.industryweek.com/education-training/why-america-has-shortage-skilled-workers

I think there is a bit more to it than this, but I do think business has played a role in why people don't want to go into skilled labor. We dont have any pride anymore for construction.

Also when I was going to college, I knew many parents who told their kids "You aren't going to work with your hands like I did." Why is that so shameful? I don't understand. One parent sent his kid to software engineering with that line, and this parent IMO did damn good for himself. He ran his own auto repair business and had a healthy stream of customers. Why wouldn't he groom his son to replace him? I don't know... His son did graduate with a software engineering degree but ended up going into the military and has had trouble finding work since being discharged. We don't know if his sons life would have ended up differently. Either way, denigrating skilled labor does not help our young people who are choosing a career path.

I don't think that's true. The people that I know on the jobs all want to do a good job, there are some slackers but for the most part, they do take pride in their work.


I don't know bro.. but it is.

Look, I could go on for days about this because this is what I do all day... (well, other than post here. )

In my opinion, the problem with construction has been a 2-part problem. I'm not a big union guy but unions helped in a lot of construction trades, with the training and consolidation of rules and regulations, as well as helping during those periods of no-work in between jobs... and the majority of union tradesmen that I knew (and there were a lot) didn't slack off or take advantage of it, they worked hard and did a good job.

the second problem is "low bid" construction. When the government went to all low bid construction, the only way you could compete for work was on price, quality and reliability had NOTHING to do with it any more. the only way to compete is to keep your price as low as you can get it.. therefore subs and GCs were forced to cut as many corners as possible just to get work. You priced work with the lowest level employee you could rather than the one best able to do the job, there was no money in your bid for training younger workers on the job, supervision was reduced, coordination between trades was reduced, quality of the materials was reduced, you had to use less reputable subs because they were cheaper... in the end, as the owner, you got change ordered to death because there was no money in anybodys budget to do any extra work, projects came in late, the project ended up being as much as it would have been any way, and the quality suffered greatly....

I'm sure that's the case, because simply put those who don't take pride in their work often tend to bounce around. But I think if you look at millennials, their opinion of skilled labor tends to be that it's for Mexicans only. Then they complain that they can't find any work as an Anthropology major (10.5% unemployment). My sister is majoring in that and it's dawning on her that she's basically screwed herself as graduation draws closer...

I also do see the value in your assessment re: quality of the work. It's impossible to keep jobs in the middle class if we keep pushing wages down in various industries such as manufacturing/construction. I even saw it in home construction. Austin has been a housing boom for years but I walked some houses as they were being built and I wouldn't trust my kids in those terribly constructed homes. When the wife and I were looking at houses in the Ohio area this past year we noticed home construction got noticeably worse some time in the 1990s. The home we ended up with may be 45 years old, but it is extremely overbuilt (several structural I-Beams, 2x12s, etc). I imagine we'd pay 2, 3 times as much money for a similar home thats less than 10 years old...

As consumers, we all want the "best" for the cheapest price. There are times, many times, when we find out "the cheapest price" wasn't the best deal, though.

Add in that every employee wants to make more money, but then spend their money on the cheapest products......

Pops always told us:

"There's a difference between 'inexpensive' and 'cheap.' You gotta be smart to find the former, while you're wading through the latter."

Absolutely. I learned my lesson once buying $10 shoes at walmart. They lasted about a week, squeaking by the second day. How is that cost effective? This race to the bottom in price has definitely contributed to some of these ailments in society. We expect things to be cheap and of good quality. Something has to give.

I'm reminded of a segment on the millionaire next door, where it was implied that self made folks buy cars by the pound. I'm not sure how prevalent that thought is, but I know my step dad-in-law prescribes to this as he drives along in his 2500HD Duramax Silverado. That thing is a beast on wheels.

I'm a millennial and I don't view it that way, but assuming you're correct for the sake of argument, I think one of the biggest problems has been the mandate by governments and parents that everyone needs to go to college.

Often times this ends up with people going to for-profit schools or getting degrees which translate to little or not extra earnings...or worse, saddles people with 5-6 figures of student loan debt that can't be paid back. Probably the reason why student loan debt is now only second to mortgage debt. Huge bubble about to burst there.

I went to law school and I have a decent career, but I look out there and see so many other JDs that would have been SO MUCH better off if they had actually gone into something like a trade. Hell, I sometimes wish I had trade skills, just to be more handy around my house, and even maybe do a job here and there to pay for a guilt-free wild vacation.

It's funny, because my wife and I obviously want our kids to find their calling, whatever it may be, but we both said that, if it was up to us, we'd like our son to be a skilled contractor.

Actual campaign finance reform, limit election campaign cycle to 2 months or less and severe regulation limits on lobbying.

Gerrymandering of congressional districts should be outlawed as well.

http://www.mapsense.co/blog/2015/7/9/gerrymandering-and-you

I would agree with that. I would add a caveat though.. I think the biggest problem is the mandate to go to college at 18 and be out by 22 or 23 with a plan for the rest of your life.

18 year old kids, most of them and this was as true when I was 18 as it is today, don't have a clue about what they want to do. Almost everybody I knew in college changed majors at least once, most 2 or 3 times. Asking an 18-20 year old kid, with almost 0 life experience, to know what will make them happy and pay the bills for the rest of their lives is a fallacy.

Get a job or join the military, get some experience, see the world.. narrow your focus and figure out what makes you happy.. then go get a degree if you want. I think that should be made a priority, colleges focusing on how to get kids in their middle to late 20s, who already have some bills, maybe even a small family.. and get them the education. Because they probably already have a better idea of what they want to do.

Yea I painted millennials with a broad brush but didn't mean to infer that every millennial thinks that way. I am a millennial myself and see the value that a career in skilled labor could provide. But I do believe skilled labor has an image problem in this country, and look it's not all the millennials' fault either. Sure they think they are beautiful snowflakes (I could become POTUS, but is that really a good career for me?). But a lot of that was drilled into them by their parents who rallied for participation trophies and ensuring their child got the best of everything, all other kids be damned. Their child wasn't going to be a plumber. Their child wasn't going to be an auto mechanic. No. They will be something better. But is making 30k a year with a fine arts degree really putting your kid on the track to success?

I know there is a lot of hate directed at for-profit schools. I went to one and I did alright, and a friend of mine is also going to school for software engineering at a for profit and is already making more money as an independent contractor than he did as a full time chef. There are shady schools out there but I don't think for-profit alone means it's a bad one. The bigger problem to me is that for the last decade or more states have cut school funding on the altar of tax cuts. Cutting school funding was an easier sell than cutting welfare because you're just hurting the middle class, so no one cares. These cuts got deeper in the 08 recession, and still haven't come back. If a kid went to college after 08, I have no idea how they can hold a job and those loan repayments and live on their own. In many cases those payments are $1000/mo or higher! I'm very fortunate that I got in before that and had a $132 fixed schedule.

There is nothing wrong with going to law school, and I think it's fantastic you were able to parlay that into a career. I'm also glad you see the value in skilled workmanship. As people with kids it is up to us to help reverse this damaging trend by instilling good values in our young ones.

As for trade work just find something to do and see if you have a friend who knows a thing or two. I'm glad that my dad was a master electrician and a plumber before joining the Navy, so I can lean on him alot. I also do most of my own car maintenance and repair and that's a good method for learning how to deal with things like electrical and mechanical systems.

I'm a millennial and I'll be damned if any of my future kids make a career out of a skill position. It's not a wrong thought.

I agree with the join the military bit. I know people think of military as guns and danger but if you are smart with your vocation choices, they turn you into a REMF. I was close to swearing in and would have been a communications engineer in the air force. This was in 2002 so Iraq wasn't an issue yet but we were in Afghanistan. Either way a comms engineer isn't gonna see combat... A friend of mine got a 99 on the ASVAB and became a geological scientist in the air force. The military is good if you don't know what you want to do when you're 18, because you can keep re-upping until you figure out what you *do* want to do.

Only way I would do infantry is if you genuinely want to do that though...

What career would you want them to have? I'm not sure why you'd be upset at your child being an engineer/plumber/attorney/scientist/professor

so many MOS's in the Army.

the problem was these straight outta high school kids not being able to qualify for much.

hell i was one of those.