DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Manziel Continued

who cares about this list of people who do not play for the Browns? The vast majority are not even in the NFL anymore.

2013 Jason Campbell (8) / Brandon Weeden (5) / Brian Hoyer (3)
2012 Brandon Weeden (15) / Thad Lewis (We still care about him)
2011 Colt McCoy (13) / Seneca Wallace (3)
2010 Colt McCoy (8) / Jake Delhomme (4) / Seneca Wallace (4)
2009 Brady Quinn (9) / Derek Anderson (7)
2008 Derek Anderson (9) / Brady Quinn (3) / Ken Dorsey (3) / Bruce Gradkowski (1)
2007 Derek Anderson (15) / Charlie Frye (1)
2006 Charlie Frye (13) / Derek Anderson (3)
2005 Trent Dilfer (11) / Charlie Frye (5)
2004 Jeff Garcia (10) / Kelly Holcomb (2) / Luke McCown (4)
2003 Kelly Holcomb (8) / Tim Couch (8)

His downward spiral started when the run game went to hell. Once Mack was out, it was a slow death.

The entire team, especially their defense played OUT OF THEIR MINDS in Cincinnati... But after that, we were horrible against Houston, lucky to get out of Atlanta against a bad Falcons team with a win. Hoyer played well but was really cleaning his own mess. The Buffalo and Indy games followed and we know how that went... The media and some fans seem to blame the horrible end of the year to Johnny, but all Johnny did was take over the controls of an already sinking ship. Yes, he was awful, and that's a whole different conversation.. I just can't stand hearing people, especially those in the media blame Johnny or Josh Gordon on our collapse. It was a total team thing, but a lot of it can be pointed to Brian Hoyer being nothing more than average.

With all that said, I'm cautiously optimistic about the way Manziel looked on Friday. Still a long way to go, and I don't think he's ready to take over or anyhting, but it seems like he is taking steps forward everyday wtih little to no setback.

I think McCown understands that he is the starter, but he's also on this team to help prep JM. Should there be a change, I don't think he's going to act like a baby about it. That had to be a huge talking point when they brought him in for contract talks...

-JC-

No one can say for sure what happened last year IMO. Was it Mack going down? Was it our scheme was figured out after teams had some game film. Was it the lack of run game which can go back to Q1? It was probably a combination of all of those things truthfully.

But the fact remains Hoyer is gone. No amount of complaining is going to change that. I personally think Hoyer and McCown are Interchangeable. Both are not long term solutions to it's not really worth arguing over.

I really hope Johnny is the guy. I'd like to have that position finally figured out. But what worries me is 1) He's not the guy and we don't have a Franchise QB and 2) We will win enough games to put us out of position to get that guy in the draft. Just like we won 4 games and missed out on Luck.

I think this defense will be good enough to win us 5 games. If we can get some decent QB play we will be close to 7 games again. We will will be looking at that second tier guy.

Johnny Manziel thrives at scrimmage, but Pettine backs Josh McCown

By Sean Wagner-McGough | Staff Writer
August 9, 2015 3:20 pm ET

Manziel is improving, but is still stuck behind McCown on the depth chart.

Johnny Manziel lit up the practice field during the Browns' Orange and Brown scrimmage at Ohio Stadium on Friday night, but head coach Mike Pettine continues to support Josh McCown as the Browns' starting quarterback.

During the scrimmage, Manziel completed 9-of-11 passes for 93 yards and two touchdowns, though it's certainly worth noting that Manziel was working with the second-team offense and playing against the second-team defense.

On one of his touchdown throws, Manziel rifled a perfectly-placed pass to Josh Lenz's back shoulder. What should be noted on the play is how Manziel's eyes go from the right side of the field to the left, which prevents the safety from helping the cornerback covering Lenz.

Here's another view of Manziel's throw, which demonstrates the perfect ball placement.

After the scrimmage, Manziel did his best to cool any overreactions resulting from his hot day.

"I wouldn't make a huge deal about it, but it's progress for me," Manziel said via the Northeast Ohio Media Group. "It's better than I played last year in the scrimmage. I'm happy about it and happy about stringing some good days together. That's what I wanted to do."

Despite Manziel's performance, Pettine isn't considering a re-ordering of the depth chart. He's sticking with McCown as the team's starter -- at least for now. Like Manziel, McCown also thrived during the scrimmage, leading the first-team offense to a touchdown and a field goal against the Browns' top defense.

Still, Manziel appears to be at least closing the gap on McCown. Even offensive tackle Joe Thomas, previously a critic of Manziel, praised him.

"He's really proved to a lot of people that this is important to him and he's ready to be an NFL starting quarterback," Thomas said. "Playing well in the scrimmage tonight and looking like an NFL quarterback is another good step in the direction that he wants to go. He's just earning that trust of his teammates that he's going to need to do if he wants to be that starter. He impressed a lot of people out here tonight."

Thomas did, however, echo Pettine's thoughts on which quarterback deserves to be starting.

"Josh has done so many good things that to me it's not really a conversation about who should be the starter right now," Thomas said.

But Pettine did say that Manziel will get time with the first team during the preseason. And if Manziel replicates his performance during real, live action, then his progress might become too hard for the Browns to ignore.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...cks-josh-mccown

Yes, it will enhance what we currently know. Should be interesting...

I'm not saying it had nothing to do with it.. but the Manziel that McCown is tutoring and working with is not even the same person that Hoyer had to deal with when he was here.

I can understand from Hoyer's perspective why he might not have been enthused about it. Primarily because Manziel wasn't working, he wasn't humble, he wasn't a team guy... he seems to have fixed those and become a good teammate and a coachable kid..

eo, if the Master Plan is to name McCown the starter just for the sake of not putting too much pressure on Johnny in training camp, that's OK with me.

Then, if they insert Johnny in game 1, 2 or 3 of the regular season as the starter, maybe there is a method to their madness.

I have zero confidence in McCown and not much more with Johnny, but you never know.
Maybe Johnny will be the next Sipe??
Did I really say that? I must be off my meds...

This is closer to what I wanted last year, for JM to get some sets in real NFL games and spell Hoyer. But we didn't. And I still think part of the drop off was Mack's injury and trying to force the ball to Gordon who might be on his route or not.

I liked what I saw much better at the Shoe out of the offense. Play of Schwartz could be major.

Yea, I might have a problem with that for a couple reasons.. one you don't yank a guy like McCown around like that right up until the season starts and 2 you don't give the majority if reps to one guy if the plan is to insert another guy immediately just because you are worried he can't handle the pressure.

Unless some sort of wizardry happens and Manziel takes the job by preseason game #3, then you roll into the season with McCown and give him a chance to win some games.

Yea DC
That sounds a bit more realistic.

Winners and losers from second week of camp

Moving Up

Johnny Manziel

It wasn't only Manziel's performance in Friday's scrimmage. He also strung together a handful of positive practices before the performance. Manziel is not competing with August Josh McCown. He's competing with November Josh McCown, who is likely to be struggling with a Browns team under .500. If Manziel continues to show progress this month, coach Mike Pettine will be more willing to move to Manziel down the stretch.

Link

I clicked on that link and the guy running his mouth got on my nerves, but thanks Vambo for that snippet.

Johnny Manziel rests sore elbow but could be 'ready to roll' for Redskins

updated August 12, 2015 at 7:31 AM
link
BEREA, Ohio -- The only passes Johnny Manziel threw in practice on Tuesday were with his left arm because of soreness in his throwing elbow.

But coach Mike Pettine thinks Manziel will still play Thursday night in the preseason opener against the Redskins at FirstEnergy Stadium.

"We just wanted to rest it for the day,'' said Pettine. "We still let him go through everything else. It was just an accumulation of reps. It started to get a little sore. We would do that with any of the guys, but he was the one that was experiencing some stiffness."

As for Manziel playing in the game, he said, "Yeah, we're anticipating that."

The soreness came four days after Manziel emerged from the locker room after the scrimmage at Ohio Stadium Friday night with his right elbow wrapped in ice and an ace bandage. Manziel said, however, that he ices his arm after every practice.

"All of our quarterbacks ice down afterward,'' Pettine said. "Standard."

Pettine didn't specify how much Manziel will play Thursday night, and much of it will depend on how he feels after a day off on Wednesday. If he's still a little sore, Connor Shaw and Thad Lewis will take the bulk of the snaps after Josh McCown plays some or all of the first quarter.

"It'll be all an individualized plan,'' said Pettine. "You'll get some guys that are with the ones that might go into the second quarter. You might get some ones that don't play at all, and anything in between.''

McCown, who's been throwing the same amount as Manziel, said he's not experiencing camp arm.

"No, thankfully, I'm not,'' he said. "Especially as a young player, you want to get reps and you want to get out there and be out there with your guys, but...if you keep throwing on that thing, it can get worse and cause you to miss a lot of time.

"It's hard, but you have to be wise with it, be able to take a day off and hopefully, save yourself later.''

Browns quarterbacks coach Kevin O'Connell, a former NFL quarterback himself, knows when to shut down his guys.

"It just comes from the high volume of throws,'' he said. "He's obviously worked very, very hard every day, not only in camp, but prior to camp, to be ready. But with that just comes sometimes you've got to kind of help a guy out, when he's working as hard as Johnny is, to just take a day. He had a heckuva day mentally, mental reps behind Josh and Connor and Thad. It was a good day from that standpoint, and we're expecting him to be ready to roll.''

O'Connell, a third-round pick of the Patriots in 2008 who's also spent time with the Lions, Jets, Dolphins and Chargers, didn't have to wait for Manziel to tell him he needed a break.

"Having been there before and been that guy that tried to stay extra and throw to the younger receivers and all that stuff, I'm constantly asking all four guys about how they're feeling and throw counts and all that stuff,'' said O'Connell. "It's something to monitor, and we try to do that. And when there's a situation where something turns into soreness or stiffness in any of their shoulders or arms or whatever it may be, we're going to do whatever we can to get them comfortable again.''

O'Connell, who helped prepare Manziel for the 2014 draft, insisted that it's nothing to worry about.

"Nah,'' he said. "Some guys get the shoulder soreness, some guys get elbow. There's really nothing to make of that, other than just high volume of throws in a short amount of time.''

Before the elbow stiffened, Manziel had strung together four or five stellar practices, including the Orange and Brown scrimmage Friday night, during which he completed 9-of-11 attempts for 93 yards and two touchdowns.

"From day one in the building, in the classroom, he's been phenomenal around Josh and the other quarterbacks and myself and coach (John) DeFilippo,'' said O'Connell. "He's doing everything on a daily basis that we're asking of him and then some and he's really just starting to flourish in playing the position with all things included -- protections, adjustments, blitz pressures, what the defense is trying to do to you. He's just approaching every day as a pro and he's getting better and he's a talented guy.''

O'Connelll has instructed Manziel and the other three quarterbacks to use their legs to extend plays and find the open man. All four quarterbacks on the roster are mobile and have been taking advantage of that in camp with bootlegs, rollouts, and scrambles.

"We talk a lot about their footwork and their base being the foundation of what they do and really using their legs to make throws and letting their legs help them decide if a guy is open or not,'' said O'Connell. "And if the timing is not right with a play, I think the one thing all four of the quarterbacks have done is find completions and understanding the power of completions no matter what the play is, no matter what the situation is.

"When you have playmakers like we do, if you can just put the ball in play, a lot of times find the completion, good things are going to happen.''

O'Connell re-iterated what Pettine said after the scrimmage -- that Manziel is less antsy in the pocket this summer

"His patience and his ability to trust his feet, we talk about that a lot,'' said O'Connell. "Trust his feet and his eyes and with his physical arm talent to make throws, good things are going to happen. You see him getting through his progressions.

"We talk a lot about progressions and protections, and there's a lot of little things you have to focus on playing the quarterback position but when you start getting comfortable with that, the game starts to slow down for guys and guys start to execute at a high level.

Question is, how close is Manziel to being ready to step in for McCown and function in a game if need be?

"Johnny is doing everything that I'm personally asking of him and I'm putting a lot on his plate and he's showing that he can handle it and I'm really proud of him right now,'' said O'Connell.

Good read Mac

I want to see Johnny with the 1's going against a 1 defense. even if it is just a series, it will give us a better idea of where he is at. The game is slowing down, he is more relaxed in the pocket but is he ready to be the man or does he need more time in absorbing the NFL game? I am curious to see where he is at.

Yep I too want to see JF take some reps against/with the ones, but not to fully take away Josh's ability to add chemistry with the ones. Josh needs those first team reps too as I believe we all know he'll be behind center come season opener.

Mike Pettine: No competition between QBs Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel

Cleveland Browns coach Mike Pettine had some interesting insights this week when he did a one-on-one sit-down with Jenny Vrentas of the MMQB at SI.com.

Let’s go through some of the things Pettine said about the team’s quarterback position -- this season and last -- taken in the order they appeared in the story.

This isn’t a competition. Pettine obviously made it clear that Josh McCown is entrenched as the starter. That meshes with everything he’s said throughout camp. The Browns obviously like what they see in Johnny Manziel, but to say he’s closing a gap or competing to start at this point is simply not accurate.

“What has helped this year is Josh knowing he is firmly the No. 1. It’s unfair to look back to a year ago and say, well, Brian Hoyer obviously didn’t help Johnny. They were in a competition.” What happened with Hoyer can be debated at length. He’s now in Houston, trying to win the starting job with the Texans. But I can’t remember the organization being so direct in saying it was unfair to expect Hoyer to be a mentor last season. As Pettine said, the situation was different. In the long run, everyone is responsible for their play and Manziel hurt himself with his actions — and he’s taken steps not to repeat the actions. It’s a gigantic what-if, but it’s worth wondering how Hoyer would have responded had he been given the same support in last season’s camp and during the season that McCown is receiving now.

“What we did not do a good enough job here [last year], not nearly a good enough job, is holding [Manziel] accountable, even when he wasn’t the guy.” This statement meshes with everything Jeremy Fowler and I were told when we wrote about Manziel’s rookie season: He was not acting professionally and in some ways the Browns let him get away with it. Clearly the team believed former quarterback coach Dowell Loggains did not do enough, and they like what Kevin O’Connell is doing. By the time Manziel got his start, Hoyer was struggling (the Colts loss was a mess), but Pettine’s statement makes the decision to start Manziel even more baffling than it seemed last season.

“[Manziel’s] a work in progress, but the will is definitely there. I think he realized he let a lot of people down, and he wants to make amends for it.” While some might quibble with the term “work in progress,” this statement by Pettine reflects where Manziel is right now with the team, and that he has plenty of room to grow. It also reflects what the owner, GM, coach and players have said, and what is evident to the eye: Manziel is doing the work to make himself a better person and player.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_...t-a-competition

Here is a link to the original story:

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/08/08/nfl-training-camp-tour-blog-week-2

Thanks Cf
In the practice we saw, McCown looked mediocre. Pettine was really excited about a strike McCown threw off his back foot to Taylor Gabriel to convert a first down, against a cornerback who was starting to undercut the route. But many of his throws seemed to lack zip, including a floater into the end zone that was easily picked off by CB Joe Haden.

this is some of the issues I have noticed in the highlight videos and in the scrimmage. Throwing off the back foot for no reason.

Probably a good idea to come out and say this because Manziel has been getting a lot of positive press lately for his performance in the scrimmage as well as his practices.. Don't want to let that snowball build too much momentum if Pettine is still set on starting McCown.

I don't think it would be smart to let that snowball build momentum even if he isn't set on starting McCown. I believe the last thing they need is another media circus revolving around the QB position no matter what their intent is.

Sure I guess..

I mean he was given the starting job.. After a terrible preseason..

But then played (documented) the worst stretch any QB has played EVER.. AND STILL KEPT HIS JOB..

Yeah.. No support whatsoever..

It really doesn't matter too much how good or bad Manziel plays in preseason. Johnny Fragile won't survive an entire NFL season. He will eventually pull the ball down, try to be "Johnny Football" again and some mean ole linebacker will tattoo his ass. He couldn't stay healthy for two entire games last year as a starter. How is he supposed to stay healthy an entire season? Wasted pick.

Is the original poster saying that Hoyer's mentality is so fragile that the idea of competition made him a bad QB? Sheesh. I liked Hoyer then and now - he played bad in a series of games and he wasn't a good team mate to JM. He's not with the Browns anymore - but I am sure a segment of the board will continue to bring him up whenever they can.

Until this team actually has a true franchise QB to lead this team, there will probably be 22 names that will come up here and there. Actually, after 15 years of not being able to retain a real QB, can you blame them?

Great!

These guys speak out of both sides of their mouths. They say that there is competition for every job and it doesn't matter where you are drafted. Then, they turn around and say there isn't a competition.

Mixed messages lead to poor results on the field.

At first I'd agree but I don't think the QB competition is in the same bracket as other positions. At this stage, JM rehab and grasp of the playbook is taking precedence and probably with good cause. I think they are keeping the lid on the hype/pressure on Johnny this way given the fragility of his recovery process. Compare hype and expectations from the media this season as opposed to last. Honestly, to me it looks like QB development done right (or mostly right) in comparison to the Couch, Frye, Quinn, Weeden debacles of yesteryear.
I don't think the QB positional battles are equivalent to the battles at other positions (with the exception of the battles for 3rd/4th string).

QB competitions are dumb and crippling to a team.

Any other position, have at it.

You are a good poster and I respect your opinion.

I simply think that every position should have open competition. More importantly............I have NEVER believed that ANYONE should have a job HANDED to them. I believe in having to EARN the job.

Has been awhile...

JOHNNY FOOTBALL!!!!


WOO!

Cheers man. I think that what you say is probably happening, it's just not being discussed openly and probably with the 2 players themselves. Should Josh lay an egg and go 0 and 3, there will very much be competition! I honestly think they are just downplaying for the 2 reasons of letting the QB focus on his own ability, and to keep the media expectations the humdrum we've seen this off-season. With performance being equivalent to job expectancy,you got to believe there is clandestine competition to put the team in the best possible chance to win.

Unless he's telling them one thing while telling us another. Heck, there's already "Johnny Play Count" thing going on added to the superlatives sprayed around when he has a good practice, (or as in the scrimmage last Saturday). If Pettine calls it a competition the hype kicks into high gear again.

This way the hype, while still there, is low-keyed.

I have to think that if Johnny is outplaying McCown consistently Pettine will play him. Otherwise I'm more concerned about that than I'd want to be.

It appears Pettine's approach is what he laid-out early in the pre season: The kid just suffered a most embarrassing season last year, all brought on himself. He spent 10 weeks in drug & alcohol rehab which, while a good decision, is a continuation of his embarrassment. He also had to come back to the locker room and ,face-to-face, gain back the trust, if he ever had any, of his teammates who lost confidence in him due to his actions. He had to learn a new playbook after ignoring the one he had last year. He had to work extra hard and show extra commitment in an effort to learn the position and show he's serious this time. He's had to stand strong facing the entire National Media for all his discrepancies. He started out this year having a lot of things to prove to a lot of people and most importantly, himself.

Seems like that's one hell of a big pile of shit to handle when you consider any one of those things would be a tall order for most. I know he brought it all on himself but that just makes the weight of it all the more difficult.

I think that's why Pettine said very early on for Johnny to not concern himself with competing for the starting job and just focus on his recovery and working on becoming a better football player, competing with himself.

You know player's mindsets pretty well I figure. And maybe Pettine is sending mixed messages. But I think he's talking to the players with one message and talking to us with another.



Just saw Riddler's posts and it appears he's saying the same sort of thing.

I only got to see the videos on NFL.com today, so what I saw may not be accurate for all of the plays Manziel was in today - but I noticed something on the very first throw - they really shortened his windup. Unfortunately it looked like he was shotputting a few throws, but it was a massive difference from last year and college. The ball seemed to get out really quickly.

That was not a good sign last night. He's only good rolling out,but his accuracy is poor. He's not fast enough to run away from guys at this level either. It's like him and all the WRs are always out of sync,but that should have improved by now after last year,and it hasn't. Very disappointing.

Considering where Manziel was at when we last saw him play, the first preseason game was a smashing success.