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Man, i just watched the new episode of John Oliver.

He was talking about Churches running the scam with people donating massive amount of money, even if they don't have the money to churches.

One was the national news story about the one paster who needed the money to justify the 60 million + private jet to "spread the word of God".

I know we had our difference, but man, i know you of all people have been the most against the tithe of churches because Jesus himself would preach wherever, didn't need money or any form of payment to preach the word of God.

Look, i'm gonna be straight up with you directly: I'm high, i'm drunk. But watching this episode heat my heart. it made me question humanity and society. I, through the guidance of this board, identify as agnostic. I believe in a God, but not one directly related to a set religion.

Please tell me bro. please tell me that most christians, or any other religious faith, doesn't fall for this trap. That they donate money that they don't have have to certain congregations that only exist to exploit peoples religious faith. I know it happens, but please man, tell me it's not the majority of religious based people. It broke my heart, that people would prey on people who have utmost faith in religion.

I know i've said some crazy stuff about religion, but like i said before bro; your consistency-regardless if i agree with you or not- at least you guys are consistent in your beliefs. please tell me this is a small minority. please tell me this isn't a major ponzi scheme just to get people to donate money for "pastors" lifestyle.

I'm just saddened, man. This really sucks. people are preying on people's spiritual belief's just to make a quick buck. and it's a HUGE scheme, not just a small minority. These Televangelist with their 1-800 hotlines.

man guys.....this really hurts my heart that people are getting played in the name of religion.

My grandparents lost tens of thousands of dollars to a sketchy preacher/church in Florida. Hurt the last few years of their retirement, lives.
A special place in hell for those that do such things in the name of God.

I'd argue it's a small minority. The ones I think you should watch out for are the giant non-denominational megachurches. Not all of them are just looking for a quick buck, but most of the scandals come from the megachurches.

There's the topic of "is our tithe money being used correctly" in smaller congregations, but that's another discussion altogether.

i know it's a small minority bro. at least i hope so. but man....

My fundamentalist baptist churches growing up all said you must tithe 10% of your gross income to the church. You *could* do more, but not less. It's a big reason I didn't go to church in my 20s. I was taught growing up that you put a check in the basket or don't go to church at all. There are also several sermons I can recall about tithing, and how it is a "requirement" of the people of the church.

In case anyone is curious, the pastors of the 3 churches I spent time in all drove Mercedes. All S-Classes.

why a mercedes. why not a honda?

I don't know how/why people get sucked into these things .... but then again, I don't know how people get a phone call from some guy from India who claims to be from Microsoft Support, and they give him access to their computer along with their credit card number either.

Some people are greedy, and other people are gullible.

I greatly dislike the so-called "prosperity doctrine", where people claim that if you give your money away to them that God will return it to you many times over. I think that we should help others because it is the right thing to do. Unfortunately, many who preach this kind of doctrine often have incredible beauty and prosperity that seem to back up their claims, and many people want to be in the "shiniest" or "most beautiful and incredible" shrine or church ... or even just to feel that they are a part of such a thing. Unfortunately, it is a convincing lure, especially for those who are much closer to the ends of their lives than to the beginnings.

I think that many people look to earthly success as a sign of God's will, rather than looking to God's Kingdom, which lies beyond this world. I happen to think that God allows all kinds of things to happen, for or to all kinds of people, for His own purposes. I do not claim to know any of His reasons, though I can assume many of them in my own life based on where He has led me.

Obviously I do think that ministries need money to be able to reach those in foreign lands, but I would also suggest to those who are looking to donate to such a cause that they check into how their money will be spent, pray before making any decisions, and beware those who would try to force anyone into an immediate decision over large sums of money. I believe that those who pray to God with a true desire for the truth will be led in that direction. When someone has to have a decision "Now!", that should set off all kinds of warning sirens.

Speaking for myself, I give to my local church, and the church also helps support our denomination. As a local church we do domestic mission work, but our denomination does great work throughout the world. The United Methodist Church does a great deal of work in Africa, and in fact, Africa is the fastest growing area for the UMC. This is supported, largely, through the donations and tithes of people at the local level throughout the world. This is probably where most of a person's donations should go, IMO.

I do think that some large ministries probably do great work in the world, but I would always encourage people to be careful.

My Pastor told me that I could use the work I have done for my church as my offering. (in lieu of money) I have redone the church website, and done 5 or 6 other promotional pieces for our booth at the upcoming fair.

He is also a firefighter in East Cleveland, and drives his mini SUV .... whatever you call them, back and forth from YTown to E. Cleveland twice a week. He also repairs it himself about 3-4 times/year. He is paid as a part time Pastor in our church, but he works his butt off in service of God, in more than full time hours. I respect the work he does immensely. I doubt that he has had a day off in the last 6 years.

It is funny ..... I have found, as I read my Bible, that God leads me in ways I never expected,and speaks to me in extremely surprising ways.

I am reading my Bible from start to finish, and I am almost through he Old testament. I am into the book of Micah, Chapter 2 as I start my evening reading.

What are the opening verses of Chapter 2?

Woe to those who plan iniquity,
to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning’s light they carry it out
because it is in their power to do it.
2 They covet fields and seize them,
and houses, and take them.
They defraud people of their homes,
they rob them of their inheritance.

I think that does speak to what we are discussing here.

I doubt that the Lord wants anyone to defraud someone else, especially in His name.

Our priest drives an old Chevy S-10 pickup, with no A/C and roll up windows. He's definitely on the frugal side. He carries a smartphone only because "the Bishop made me do it".

These preachers are only collecting on the same fear and misinformation that supports conservatives in their agenda to fleece America.

It's often these same conservatives who use the words "freedom" and "sheep" in the same sentence.

Please try to keep in mind that God's Word, God's Love, and God's Justice are from the hand of God while Religion is created by man.

One is infallible, the other, not so much.

Remember Swish just because somebody says they are a Christian does not mean they are.

Yes but religion only has itself to blame. When you sell a product that never has to be delivered, at least in a physical sense, you're going to invite the scum of the planet, which there is plenty, to pray on the vulnerable. The religious community really needs to protect and police it's own better and get the word out on these less than reputable pitchmen.

God has delivered for me many times in my life while I deserve nothing.

there are those that sit by the phone ( or computer) nightly waiting and longing for some contact, some presence , some explanation as to why they are in the plight they are.

And no answers come.

There are those that seek daily, the voice and direction of the Lord, our God and find none.

There are those that question illness, lowliness sorrow and pain and wonder where is the relief and they find no solace.

Where then is this God we seek, where then is the love so thoughtfully promised in words of a book.

GOD is not manifest in a book, but only in the actions and love of his true followers and therein lies the answers and the plight of the world, for if we do not take our teachings to heart, if we do not love as we wished to be loved, with honesty, integrity and a willingness to share then there is no hope for the lost, there is no solace and there is no peace.

And we the followers, need to understand our shame, as we have been shown the gift and have not used it for its intended purpose and I for one regret that, for I have wasted what has been freely given, not by lack of faith but by lack of action and a heart of ice and feet of stone.

Still I count myself as a believer but still searcher for the direction we all seek.

I think we all need to tithe so we can get Swish a breathalyzer that attaches to his computer and stops him from logging in when he is drunk

Swish, I just caught that John Oliver segment too and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Ever been on the runway of the Akron-Canton Airport and seen the 747 parked off to the side? That's owned by a local televangelist.

As much as I'd like to hope that this fraud is rare...the sad fact is that it's not. Televisions reach many people...old people who don't do much else and they start to buy into the sales pitch. It's very sad.

This may be why you have a priest and I don't

Me too.

I find that the more I ask Him to lead me, the more He does just that.

I should add, as far as the original discussion, that God does occasionally tell us to give away "everything". He may ask us to sell a beloved home and more across the country. (or world) I am reading a book right now about a guy who was CEO of Lenox, just starting to make big money, and had a significant number of events leading him to become the CEO of World Vision instead. He would have made a small fortune as the CEO of Lenox. That was his concern. He kept getting phone calls from people, and having the topic pop up in discussions with friends, that he should look into the CEO position with World Vision.

Finally, after turning down everyone, every time the subject was brought up, he was finally convicted when he was reading his Bible, and the story of the rich, young ruler appeared before him. (In his reading, not through any outward supernatural means)

In the story, a young man, described as a rich young rules, and obviously very pleased with himself, his morality and his success, came to Jesus and asked Him what he must to to earn his way into heaven.

The account is here in Matthew 19: 16-26:

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [a]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

So, tying this back into the original thread topic .... we need to beware, on both sides, of wealth. There is nothing wrong with having money, or property, but when it becomes more important than God is when it becomes a detriment to the salvation of a person's soul.

I hope that the "mega preachers" who feel a need to build massive churches and cathedrals, remember this. Again quoting Stearns, "'What has God given you? Moses had a stick, David had a slingshot, and Paul had a pen." Should a man really need a 50,000 seat cathedral to preach the Word of God?

I do worry that those who need 100 cameras and a 50,000 seat cathedral with all of the opulence of a foreign palace may be missing the basic idea of what God wants from us. I cannot speak for Him, but I do wonder if these men (and they are mostly men) who seem to preach a "prosperity doctrine", (where giving away money gets a 3-1 return from God, or other such "assurances") would be so enthusiastic to give away all of their belongings as they ask others to do? Jesus was a man who gave up everything for His mission on earth, and who asked his Apostles to do so as well.

There is something special about the man who can take his inspiration from God, and can take a Bible and his own voice, and profess the message of God to others. There is something special about the man who can do so even in the face of ridicule by many, because he has been called by God to do so. I have great respect for the man who goes to the areas where poor and hopeless people live ..... homeless shelters and soup kitchens, and is willing to invest his time in spreading the Word of God, and the love of God to those who need it more than anyone else.

In closing, I would suggest to those who have these massive, lavish churches remember than Jesus put the poor and needy above all else, (except God, obviously) and He used the resources He received from others to help the poor where they lived. I understand the need for churches, and I do feel that many of them serve a very good purpose, but I do worry that they have become a crutch, and that many Christians feel good about their attendance, or watching these shows ... maybe eveen donating ..... when they should be reading their Bibles and spreading the Word of God to those all around them.

/end sermon

I remember when my Daughter was first getting into Nursing and the school took them to an old folks home to get used to working with people, touching, moving, taking care of them.

One day when she was finished with her duties she sat on the bed of an old lady who never said much, just to talk with her. As my Daughter talked she noticed the old lady would constantly curl up her own hands and hide them under the sheets. My Daughter asked her if her hands hurt or were bothering her.

The old woman spoke and said with tears that no, her hands didn't hurt but she was ashamed of her fingernails. My Daughter took her by the hands and asked to see. The woman gave up her hands and her nails did need some work.

My Daughter asked if she could work on them, to which the woman said with a smile, if you want. My Daughter went to some of the other trainees and gathered up everything to give the old lady a manicure. She worked the woman's nails like a pro. At one point the old lady began to cry so my Daughter asked, "Oh dear, am I hurting you"?

The lady said no, no my dear, it has been so many years since anyone has taken the time to fuss over me that I am just so thrilled!

My Daughter told her you will be so beautiful when I am finished you are gonna have to fight off the boys around here which brought great laughter from the old lady.

When finished, those nails were perfect and she asked the the lady what color she would like and she chose the brightest red in the group of choices. The other trainees now began to gather around and admire the woman and here beautiful nails. My Daughter told me the lady was so happy and showed her nails to everyone. Her grin and Pride were from ear to ear!

Such a simple thing. Such a dramatic effect!

40 done something good in raising that kid! She is like a Badge of Honor to me.

Now you notice I never mentioned God or Religion in this story from my life but my Daughter and I, through our Faith in God Almighty and His Son, Jesus Christ were guided in her raising and blessed with her compassion by that Faith. God works in our lives on a daily basis whether we consider Him or not, for it is a wonderful Culture of Life.

If somebody falls for it in the name of Jesus, then it's probably a good thing. lol

I don't want anyone to misinterpret this as me hating all religion because I truly don't. I think if you need religion to feel good about yourself, your life or whatever; then you should have it. I also think that's a personal choice, just like sending a TV preacher money is a personal choice, or dropping 10% in a basket at church is a personal choice. However, you don't get to cry foul when you are duped.

Elderly, sick and stupid people are prey to these con men; but their FAITH in God is what ultimately makes them do these things. That is why it is a choice... So you can't have it both ways, either it's all good because it's a religious experience or it's all bad because it's a scam.

Actually, it's their faith in the con man that dupes them, not their faith in god.

While Jesus didn't directly take money from people (as best we know), his ministry relied on people generously giving food, clothing, and shelter to him and the disciples through out their travels.

Yes, others donated money and the room/food for the Last Supper/Dinner as well.
Its all there in that there Book.

So the water to wine thingy and the one loaf of bread feeding everyone in that there book wasn't right?

You never like anything I say so why not pick up that there Book and read it for yerseF.

If you are attempting to type in a southern colloquialism, shouldn't you have typed, "that thar book"?

I'm not living THAT THERE far south.

whatever happened to Hairdawg? I miss his dialect.

The 'intellectuals' on the board chased him and his dialect off. Ticks me off too, cause I invited him here.

Someone supplied the initial water and the bread, they didn't bring it with them, and he didn't create them out of thin air.

Religion and politics must be kept separate for a just society.

Religion and a belief in God are just too intangible.

Which of course the swindlers know. I guess a "buyer beware" policy is the best approach (short of clearly defined fraud).

I think saying: "I'll pray to God for your deliverance. Here’s the basket. Please give generously" , falls short of criminal action.

As far as my personal belief in God.

To any thinking person, the concept of existence is mindblowing. How is time, space, gravity, magnetism and light possibly intertwined?

The Big Bang doesn’t explain the beginning of anything. The only thing it explains is why everything in our observable universe currently seems to be drifting apart. (What was before the Big Bang? Nothing?)

A belief and worship of God simplifies things and makes life much more enjoyable. Even if you’re sure there is no god, you should try it. A worship of Jesus is a decent option. At the very least he represents what’s good about humankind. Go ahead think it. Say it. Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Brought to you by:

rockyhilldawg
P.O.Box 56Q23X
Rocky Hill, Ct 06067

(make checks payable to “Church of RHD”, federal tax ID # 23711XZ2)

(I'm counting on God having a sense of humor or else i'll find myself playing poker for eternity with Dahmer, Gacy, Hitler and Stalin.)

The vast majority of churches operate on a small budget, pastors live fairly modest lifestyles, and they have a skeleton staff while relying on volunteers to get most things done.

Those who live extravagantly, flying private jets and owning big houses, boats etc in the name of spreading the word are definitely a small minority, and they do far more harm than good when it comes to growing the faith.

I have no respect for them at all.

Pretty sure that was a part of the lesson... Yes I believe Jesus could have created food for 5000 out of thin air if he had wanted to... but the message was, "You bring me your meager offerings and I will make great things out of it." Not "You sit over there and I will do this all by myself."

it just crazy that the people allow this to happen.

When basing your entire life existence on faith that something exists or not, it's not surprising that they found so many people willing to believe.

Why would an omnipotent being need money?

I read a study not that long ago that said if you total all the donations to houses of worship in America from the mid-'70s til today, there would be enough money to stamp out poverty in America. That being said, why haven't we?

I know this just another "i hate christians" thread. These type of scams are not limited to religion.

Cancer charity scam

That was extremely well said! I had never really thought about it in that particular way. Thank you for teaching me something,