Yep. Scams run rampant in this world, and unfortunately some use religion to perpetrate their scams.
I would guess that 2 of the biggest appeals scams use are:
1. Your money will multiply dramatically as a result of giving it to us.
2. Your money will make bring life changing results for those less fortunate than you.
I have seen a lot of religious appeals, especially from those pushing a "prosperity doctrine", that uses both aspects.
In the end, as I learned in sales training a long time ago, fear of loss is the single most powerful motivating factor in human beings. A lo of scams, religious or not, use this fear of loss to motivate people into immediate actions that they should carefully consider instead.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
My fundamentalist baptist churches growing up all said you must tithe 10% of your gross income to the church. You *could* do more, but not less. It's a big reason I didn't go to church in my 20s. I was taught growing up that you put a check in the basket or don't go to church at all. There are also several sermons I can recall about tithing, and how it is a "requirement" of the people of the church.
In case anyone is curious, the pastors of the 3 churches I spent time in all drove Mercedes. All S-Classes.
Oh, and as far as this post ..... I think that God would rather have people who read His Word daily, study it, learn what He wants from them, pass His Word on to other, and who do His will .... he would rather have those who promote God's message of hope to others on a daily basis .... than to have a millionaire sitting in church on Sunday, faithfully giving 10%, and never considering God's will in his life, and never even mentioning God to anyone except for that one hour or so on Sunday morning.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I read a study not that long ago that said if you total all the donations to houses of worship in America from the mid-'70s til today, there would be enough money to stamp out poverty in America. That being said, why haven't we?
The annual contributions to churches in the United States is still less than 25% of what the government spends on social programs every year.. yet people want to trust THEM to stamp out poverty...
i don't want churches to fix poverty. they do enough.
i want them to stop justifying a private 747.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
i don't want churches to fix poverty. they do enough.
i want them to stop justifying a private 747.
I do want the churches to do more for poverty because the government sucks at fixing it.
I don't know what to say about the 747.. I can't think of any reason for a religious leader to need one.. I guess maybe the Vatican because the pope and cardinals travel all over the world, maybe it is actually more cost effective to have their own plane.. maybe.. other than that, I don't see the need for it.
Oh, and as far as this post ..... I think that God would rather have people who read His Word daily, study it, learn what He wants from them, pass His Word on to other, and who do His will .... he would rather have those who promote God's message of hope to others on a daily basis .... than to have a millionaire sitting in church on Sunday, faithfully giving 10%, and never considering God's will in his life, and never even mentioning God to anyone except for that one hour or so on Sunday morning.
I agree with you. This prosperity gospel is damaging to the people and to the theology in general. My mother in law got stage 1 oral cancer (just a freak thing, no tobacco use etc). Her pastor suggested that she did something wrong in God's eyes and therefore deserved the cancer! I'm glad she told him off instead of buying into that damaging theology. Both the MIL and I are very skeptical of religion thanks to these "pastors"...
Point blank you owe 10% of your earnings. Period. That money belongs to God not you. Instead of taking a small quote out of context read the following chapter: Malachi Chapter 3
This is what GOD demands, not me. When you start giving more than 10% that is when you are sacrificing FOR the Lord. The Bible is also clear that it's pointless to give unless you do so with a happy heart. Again in the New Testament read: 2 Corinthians 9
Some might say it's wrong for a church to have a large building or their priests to have fine things because it's a waste of money to have God or his priests look grand or important. In John Chapter 12 the betrayer Judas made a similar argument when Mary, sister of Lazarath, uses a perfume worth a year's wages to anoint Jesus's feet.
7 “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you,[c] but you will not always have me.”
There is nothing wrong with making God's house beautiful as a temple not as a church. We need more temples that bring Glory to God by the wonder of their being there IMHO. There is just something to be said for going into a building dedicated to God in such a way.
In that same vein of thought realize that IF you are truly a child of God then YOUR BODY is a temple for his holy Spirit that comes to dwell in you so treat your body as holy and sacred. Don't put bad things into it whether food or chemicals.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NIV)
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
In closing the poor will always be there but building a grand temple for God both in a building and in your body/soul is a wonderful thing and there is no guilt to be had for spending and saving up resources for God. Give freely and with joy in your heart for doing so and God will bless you for it =)
If you don't see a Church you can support and get behind then go make one that you can =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Would any of you vote for a 10% God tax to be taken directly off your earnings and any other income sources (uncapped) and given to the universal church fund that is used to make hand outs to the poor?
What I've got a problem with is when people like my Pastor take 80% of that tax free tithe and offering for himself. Paying tithes to that is contributing to the problem. Sad thing is that people like you are perfectly fine with it as long as you get to feel good about yourself.
Not all churches are scamming, stealing organizations. In fact, even among mega-churches there are only a few that are run by greedy self-serving preachers.
The majority of churches run on small budgets, often paying low wages to most church employees, and rely heavily on volunteers and donations to just keep the church maintained.
There are many congregations who have become about preaching only to those inside their doors, but there are still many more that are trying, with very little resources, to help their communities, even when those they reach never attend their church.
There are also a lot of things churches do indirectly to help. For instance, we hold food drives that we donate to local food banks. We run a thrift store that serves to provide inexpensive goods to the community, and the profits from which fund many of our churches ministries, from the local kids clubs to mission trips to Haiti and Cuba.
Sadly, as with everything in our society, it only takes a couple bad seeds to give a black eye to the entire group in the eyes of the masses. Funny how this keeps ringing true across so many subjects on this board.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Would any of you vote for a 10% God tax to be taken directly off your earnings and any other income sources (uncapped) and given to the universal church fund that is used to make hand outs to the poor?
No. God doesn't want it if it's not voluntary. IMHO
What I've got a problem with is when people like my Pastor take 80% of that tax free tithe and offering for himself. Paying tithes to that is contributing to the problem.
I agree, I wouldn't like that either.
Quote:
Sad thing is that people like you are perfectly fine with it as long as you get to feel good about yourself.
Would any of you vote for a 10% God tax to be taken directly off your earnings and any other income sources (uncapped) and given to the universal church fund that is used to make hand outs to the poor?
The two Churches and one Synagogue in my area decided to pool their resources and have only one Bazaar with all three participating. They would split the profits afterwards.
Afterward, the Priest, Minister and Rabbi gathered in the basement of one of the Churches to split up the profits. Each was to get a third.
The Minister suggested they give some of the profits to the Lord and the others agreed wholeheartedly. The Minister said they should give 10% to God but the Rabbi insisted 12% and the Priest remained silent. Instead of arguing, they came up with a plan...
The Rabbi suggested they draw a circle on top of the table that held all the profits. They would toss all the money into the air and what landed inside the circle would be God's while everything outside the circle would be theirs to keep.
The Minister became agitated and demanded the money that fell inside the circle was theirs! God would get the rest!
So in the name of peace, they turned to the Priest and said Your decision would be final and all agreed. The Priest turned to them and announced, We will throw the profits into the air, What God keeps, He keeps! The rest is ours.
Would any of you vote for a 10% God tax to be taken directly off your earnings and any other income sources (uncapped) and given to the universal church fund that is used to make hand outs to the poor?
The two Churches and one Synagogue in my area decided to pool their resources and have only one Bazaar with all three participating. They would split the profits afterwards.
Afterward, the Priest, Minister and Rabbi gathered in the basement of one of the Churches to split up the profits. Each was to get a third.
The Minister suggested they give some of the profits to the Lord and the others agreed wholeheartedly. The Minister said they should give 10% to God but the Rabbi insisted 12% and the Priest remained silent. Instead of arguing, they came up with a plan...
The Rabbi suggested they draw a circle on top of the table that held all the profits. They would toss all the money into the air and what landed inside the circle would be God's while everything outside the circle would be theirs to keep.
The Minister became agitated and demanded the money that fell inside the circle was theirs! God would get the rest!
So in the name of peace, they turned to the Priest and said Your decision would be final and all agreed. The Priest turned to them and announced, We will throw the profits into the air, What God keeps, He keeps! The rest is ours.
Isn't that the joke Steve Guttenburg told in Short Circuit to NUMBER 5?
------------------------------ *In Baker we trust* -------------------------------
What I've got a problem with is when people like my Pastor take 80% of that tax free tithe and offering for himself. Paying tithes to that is contributing to the problem. Sad thing is that people like you are perfectly fine with it as long as you get to feel good about yourself.
Wait. Do I have this right? Your pastor takes 80% of the offering (tithes) for himself?
If I have that right, your church needs some checks and balances. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you wrote?
What I've got a problem with is when people like my Pastor take 80% of that tax free tithe and offering for himself. Paying tithes to that is contributing to the problem. Sad thing is that people like you are perfectly fine with it as long as you get to feel good about yourself.
Wait. Do I have this right? Your pastor takes 80% of the offering (tithes) for himself?
If I have that right, your church needs some checks and balances. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you wrote?
Absolutely 100% honest to God telling the honest truth. He some how suckered the elders at my church to allow it. It might be more like 75%, but it's definitely over 70+. I used to be a Deacon and collected offerings and took attendance. My Pastor gets over 100k a year.
The church itself is lucky if it gets 25-35k a year. It's so bad that they can't even get approved for loans from the bank to make any renovations. Our pastor won't step down unless he gets a severence deal. Our church is full of idiotic yes men that contribute to the problem. So he'll NEVER get voted out.
Feel free to chime in! My Pastor is a con artist that manipulated my churches elders in to going along win his financial scam. It's an Internet forum, you're not gonna offend me by speaking your peace. It wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact my Pastor is lazy too.
I'm not trying to scare people from churches, but Pastors like mine are VERY real. Also, we're not a mega church. Not even close. We have maybe 100-120 including kids on a weekly basis.
You made that up because when GM was born, people had only just learned to communicate with grunts, pops and clicks.
How dare you accuse me of such a thing, were you there? A grunt meant the rabbi, a pop signified the minister and finally a click for the priest. The knuckle-dragging neanderthals who lived two caves down didn't participate.
"My Pastor is a con artist that manipulated my churches elders in to going along win his financial scam. It's an Internet forum..."
candy, I take it you're a "silent parishioner". (not voicing displeasure with the current Pastor)
Do you think you're the only dissatisfied parishioner? If your assessmemt is right, I hope your church "elders" (active parishioners) make a group conscious decision to at least tell the current Pastor to change or hit the highway.
Feel free to chime in! My Pastor is a con artist that manipulated my churches elders in to going along win his financial scam. It's an Internet forum, you're not gonna offend me by speaking your peace. It wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact my Pastor is lazy too.
I'm not trying to scare people from churches, but Pastors like mine are VERY real. Also, we're not a mega church. Not even close. We have maybe 100-120 including kids on a weekly basis.
Not knowing the set-up of your church, financially, I can only make assumptions, ok?
But first, if the pastor is taking $100,000 in salary and benefits, leaving the church only $30,000 more or less, man, how does the church stay open? (and for the record - believe it or not, last night I was running some numbers and I figured you probably had about 100 people attending - not that that matters though.)
Is everyone that attends aware of the set up?
Pastors do a lot of work "behind the scenes" so to speak. They are on call 24/7. They deserve to be paid, no doubt. But taking 3/4 of the offering? Something is amiss there, in my opinion. The numbers you are stating just don't add up to a long term financial viability for your church.
(and I'm not doubting the numbers, just wondering why the congregation allows it.)
But, again, I have no concept of your church's facilities, expenses, etc.
We have a lot of people volunteer to help clean the place up & do any possible construction so that cuts down on cost. We often try to "rent out" our church as well. Strangely enough, we often have a lot of weddings here. I can't explain why or how, but we do. That cuts down on cost quite a bit because we also get paid to help with catering.
However, yes. I believe our church will be foreclosed in a few years.
We have a lot of people volunteer to help clean the place up & do any possible construction so that cuts down on cost. We often try to "rent out" our church as well. Strangely enough, we often have a lot of weddings here. I can't explain why or how, but we do. That cuts down on cost quite a bit because we also get paid to help with catering.
However, yes. I believe our church will be foreclosed in a few years.
I guess I'm glad our church has a "chain of command" in regards to money. And a finance committee, and what we call a consistory committee.
Ushers pass the plate, take it straight to the office where the congregational president, the treasurer, and at least 2 ushers put it in the safe.
Monday morning, 4 people are present to count the donations, and log them. Off to the bank for deposit.
Also, weekly, in the bulletin, there is a weekly breakdown and a yearly breakdown. Budgeted amounts vs. actual donations. Every week, every single person can see where the church stands on budgeted amounts vs. actual income.
We are in the process of raising money for an addition. Need $4.5 million. The goal for this year is $450,000. If that is raised, we have an anonymous donor that will put in an additional $150,000. PROVIDED the current fund covers this years expenses. In other words, people can't just take their regular donation/tithe and mark it for the building fund.
Well, they can. But if the current fund doesn't at least zero out at the end of the year, the church will lose the anonymous contribution to the building fund.
We also have volunteers. We also spend a fair amount on Tuesdays for the free community meal. Every Tuesday night. You show up, you get to eat. Have $5 bucks to throw in, or $20 bucks, great. Don't have a dime? Hey, eat. You get the same food.
Every summer we do what we call a "Book Bag Bash". We offer free book bags, outfitted with MOST of the things kids are supposed to have, based on what grade the kids are in. (based on what the area schools teachers tell us their kids need - from K-12).
It's free. There is no donation basket involved. People show up, tell us the age of the kid/kids, and bam, we take them through. Here's your book bag, here's the notebooks you need, here's the folders, the pencils, the colored pencils, the crayons, the boxes of kleenex, the note cards, the pens, erasers, bottles of glue, glue sticks (teachers can be fussy)......in short, here's just about every school supply you need, based on your grade. Free. Well, free to the kids.
Do we supply every kid with everything they need? No.
Just 3 weeks ago, 118 kids got back to school supplies from our church.
At the peak, 3 years ago, it was almost 300 kids.
There are definitely some "scam" churches out there. I'd like to think the percentage is extremely low though.
