DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Subway pitchman Jared Fogle to plead guilty to sex acts with minors, child porn

Not very long ago you could have said the same thing about the State sponsoring of 15 year olds having sex changes without their parents even knowing.

They don't. Please stop. I never once mentioned child rape. You are so freaking obvious in your poor-man's attempt at intellectualism...........it doesn't matter how many times you use the words "child rape," because that was never my intent.

It's about what someone said earlier..........How can anyone be attracted to a minor? I'm sure there are plenty of people who are attracted to minors. They just don't admit to it. One day, I believe they will.

And besides............how smart are you if you really couldn't figure out my true intent when I made my first post on this thread? LMAO

I have no doubt that in 10 to 15 years from now, our society would make ancient Rome blush.
Shame!

And the greatest empire in the history of mankind crumbled due in part to crumbling traditional values.

Once again, you said that the way things are going in our country, soon a child rapist (Jared Fogle) would not only be accepted, but lauded for admitting that he raped children.Am I misinterpreting the meaning of your statement, and if so, how? Here is a full quotation of your initial remarks:

It is gross and disgusting, but the way things are going in this country, guys like Jared will be applauded, accepted, and celebrated in about 15 years for coming out.[/quote]

You are desperately clawing at your either your lack of reading comprehension or unwillingness to admit your mistake.

I am telling you again..........My comments have NOTHING to do w/child rape. The man was obviously ATTRACTED to minors.

Are you really telling me you are a college professor? You can't even read. Or, can you? Are you simply trying to paint a false picture? Yeah, I think so.

What was that word you used to describe me? Annoying? LOL man........see mirror.

Again, what does this have to do with prevailing attitudes towards child rapists? Can you cite any example to back the notion that our society is headed towards accepting or lauding child rapists?

Well Vers has tried and now I have tried, but you just can't seem to add 2+2 and get 4. Perhaps some rest is in order, it's getting late.

Once again, your comment, unabridged:

It is gross and disgusting, but the way things are going in this country, guys like Jared will be applauded, accepted, and celebrated in about 15 years for coming out

I will ask the same question I asked the first time: What basis or example do you have to suggest that society will soon accept or laud child rapists? Jared Fogle, the subject of your statement, is a child rapist. What, specifically, leads you to think America is moving towards acceptance of such behavior?

Shut the hell up, Jack. You are the worst sort of poster. You keep repeating the same crap over and over like it's going to come true if you say it enough.

You quote me, but in that quote.............where did I say child rapist? I have freaking explained to you about sexual preferences, but you don't want to hear it because you want others to pile on w/you to what I said.

I have clarified it for you several times. Sexual preference. Not child rape. Can you comprehend that, college professor?

You know what.............I think you lied about being a college professor. No college professor is that narrow minded. I believe you are a fraud!

None of this gave a direct answer to my question. I will ask again. You said that the way things are going, society would soon be accepting and possibly even lauding people like Jared Fogle. Jared Fogle was the subject of your statement. Jared Fogle is a child rapist. What prevailing trend, attitude, or law in American society suggests that, at the rate things are going, we as a culture will soon be accepting or lauding paedophiles like Jared Fogle?

Now Jack, you know lying is a Sin!

Hit the Road, Jack. You are either incapable of understanding the written word or unwilling to accept the written word.

According to you, oral sex with my girlfriend is a sin. Forgive me for dismissing your views on morality.

Vers, stop it. Same-sex relationships are between consenting adults, whereas pedophillia and child rape is anything but consent between two adults. You're ridiculous.

You're equating two consenting adults of the same-sex to actual rape where the minor lacks the mental faculties to consent to it.

Just....ugh.

Why would you even go there?

None of this gave a direct answer to my question. I will ask again. You said that the way things are going, society would soon be accepting and possibly even lauding people like Jared Fogle. Jared Fogle was the subject of your statement. Jared Fogle is a child rapist. What prevailing trend, attitude, or law in American society suggests that, at the rate things are going, we as a culture will soon be accepting or lauding paedophiles like Jared Fogle?

While I disagree with you most of the time, I must say, I'm impressed at your ability to not attack vers. Or his job/career, or his person, as he has done to you.

He so often gripes about being picked on, yet here, in this thread, he's not only disagreeing with you, he's personally attacking you. Kudos to you for keeping it clean.

Learn how to read.

Learn how to read.

I have never, ever put anyone on ignore, but you are now on that list. WTH were you talking about...........I clearly stated "sexual preference" as opposed to "child rape," yet Jack repeatedly ignored those explanations........and you blame me? I must ignore you.

They don't usually let me stay up this late but it gets really HOT around here at night! Its like dropping in on a Biker Bar or somtin.

Too cool.

You're equating a consensual relationship between two adults to a relationship that doesn't involve consenting adults.

Ok.

I suppose it's possible that a cultural shift could allow for pedophilia.- but I find it highly unlikely.... and next to impossible, in the time frame you suggested.

Monkeys could possibly fly out my butt... but the odds against it are where the smart money would be.

I'm not making light of this, nor am I ridiculing your pov... it's a very serious social issue.

What I am saying is this: Child abuse is the ultimate expression of control, dominance and predation. It is a sick, sociopathic aberration that is very different than a person's sexual orientation. As laypeople, we tend to lump all of these (and many, many more) sexually-based behavioral traits under the same general "perversion" umbrella.

That's too easy. And in doing so, we risk using a 'carpet-bomb solution' approach to ALL things 'outside the norm.' It doesn't do justice for those good people who 'just ain't like the rest of us,' you know?

For instance:

In your 'slippery slope' scenario, you used:

1. an example of consentual sex between two adults of the same gender
...and...
2. the description of a person who identifies as the gender opposite of that which they display to the world.


I have two Real Life examples of folks I know who blow that 'connection' to smithereens.

_________________


I've known Neal & 'Hans' since 1985. They've been together as a monogamous couple for all that time (including the first 5 years of my friendship with them, when 'Hans' worked at the F.B.I. ...and was gone for weeks on end 'in the field.') Neither has ever strayed from their commitment to each other (that I'm aware of), and children have never been part of their lives. Not in any way. In fact, Neal voluntarily declined to form a potentially lucrative private violin teaching studio, because he was worried about 'what Midwestern Mothers might think.' All because he was 'out'... DECADES before it was "fashionable." 'Hans' (not his real name) remained closeted until after he retired from 30 years of service- for obvious reasons.


Sandra was a dear, close friend of mine.... since the days when I knew her as Stuart. I fought my own way past Stuart's personal 'coming out,' ...and found the same (and better) friend/colleague when Stuart came to us (as Sandra) at the start of the season, back in 2010. Sandra was the father of 2 girls... and would have slain ANYONE like Jared Fogel on the spot- without thinking- had she found him victimizing her daughters.

Do you NOW see the levels of nuance at work here, Vers?

____________________


Child abuse/exploitation is something very different than the examples you described.

I personally know/knew (Sandra: R.I.P.) people who could NEVER be accused as sexual predators any more than you or I could.


These things are NOT the same, my friend.
I felt that it was important to make that disticntion in this thread, for the sake on 'informed conversation,' going forward.

_____________________

Based upon what we now know, Jared Fogel is a stone cold sexual predator. He is something VERY DIFFERENT than the people I know.... and I'm certain that they would see him in the same light as do I.


Vers: I don't think that America is in any danger of equating homosexuality and gender dysmorphia with child predation anytime soon.

I have faith that we're still sophisticated enough as a species to discern the difference between 'sexual orientation' and Human Sociopathy.

I understand what you're trying to covey here... but I must strongly disagree, in the most strenuous way I can:
'Gay' and 'Transgender' do not equate to child rape.



-Even in Vladimir Nabokov's world.


.02,
Clemdawg.

I was impressed by the restraint shown in this thread

quote by Clem above:

"I suppose it's possible that a cultural shift could allow for pedophilia."

It's certainly been accepted in past civilized cultures. (ancient Greece, Rome, Japan).

I'm not exactly learned on the subject, but I believe ages of accepted sexual contact between adults and children went as low as 11 or 12 years old.

Keep in mind: There's a big difference between a 12-year-old 2500 years ago and today. (life expectance was only ~ 23 years)

And they didn't have participation trophies back then either.

Jack, you keep using the phrase "child rape" which is a good debating tactic on your part because it invokes horrible images of violent sexual conquest of small children... and who could ever think that would be acceptable? I'm 100% sure that is not what anybody is talking about... However a 40 year old having consensual sex with a 16 year old? Or 15? Or 14? Yes, I firmly believe that those social constructs will be called into question at some point...

You asked for proof or facts that we were headed in that direction... did you know that the American Psychiatric Institute, in 2013, changed it's definition of pedophilia from a disorder to a sexual orientation? Then after getting a ton of grief over it, changed it to a "sexual interest"? But it's not considered a "disorder" any more...

If you are looking for giant steps, protests in front of state houses, etc.. you won't find anything like that... not yet.

There is zero indication or evidence that our society is headed in a direction in which pedophiles will be accepted or heralded. None. That was my point in repeatedly asking the poster for clarification on his original statement. In American society today, pedophilia is the most vilified act one can commit. That sentiment holds true over all classes and sects of people. It's about as universal as one can get in America. There isn't a single example of lax attitudes or acceptance towards child rapists. And I don't think your DSM-5 citation is an example, either. The 5 came out, and the internet lost its collective minds over it, prompting an immediate change in wording from the API. How does that serve as an example of Americans headed towards an acceptance or applauding of child rapists such as Jared Fogle?

Since we are on the subject:

'Afghanistan's dirty little secret'

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/brinkley/article/Afghanistan-s-dirty-little-secret-3176762.php

By Joel Brinkley Published 4:00 am, Sunday, August 29, 2010

Western forces fighting in southern Afghanistan had a problem. Too often, soldiers on patrol passed an older man walking hand-in-hand with a pretty young boy. Their behavior suggested he was not the boy's father. Then, British soldiers found that young Afghan men were actually trying to "touch and fondle them," military investigator AnnaMaria Cardinalli told me. "The soldiers didn't understand."

All of this was so disconcerting that the Defense Department hired Cardinalli, a social scientist, to examine this mystery. Her report, "Pashtun Sexuality," startled not even one Afghan. But Western forces were shocked - and repulsed.

For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers. Some research suggests that half the Pashtun tribal members in Kandahar and other southern towns are bacha baz, the term for an older man with a boy lover. Literally it means "boy player." The men like to boast about it.

"Having a boy has become a custom for us," Enayatullah, a 42-year-old in Baghlan province, told a Reuters reporter. "Whoever wants to show off should have a boy."

Baghlan province is in the northeast, but Afghans say pedophilia is most prevalent among Pashtun men in the south. The Pashtun are Afghanistan's most important tribe. For centuries, the nation's leaders have been Pashtun.

President Hamid Karzai is Pashtun, from a village near Kandahar, and he has six brothers. So the natural question arises: Has anyone in the Karzai family been bacha baz? Two Afghans with close connections to the Karzai family told me they know that at least one family member and perhaps two were bacha baz. Afraid of retribution, both declined to be identified and would not be more specific for publication.

As for Karzai, an American who worked in and around his palace in an official capacity for many months told me that homosexual behavior "was rampant" among "soldiers and guys on the security detail. They talked about boys all the time."

He added, "I didn't see Karzai with anyone. He was in his palace most of the time." He, too, declined to be identified.
In Kandahar, population about 500,000, and other towns, dance parties are a popular, often weekly, pastime. Young boys dress up as girls, wearing makeup and bells on their feet, and dance for a dozen or more leering middle-aged men who throw money at them and then take them home. A recent State Department report called "dancing boys" a "widespread, culturally sanctioned form of male rape."
So, why are American and NATO forces fighting and dying to defend tens of thousands of proud pedophiles, certainly more per capita than any other place on Earth? And how did Afghanistan become the pedophilia capital of Asia?

Sociologists and anthropologists say the problem results from perverse interpretation of Islamic law. Women are simply unapproachable. Afghan men cannot talk to an unrelated woman until after proposing marriage. Before then, they can't even look at a woman, except perhaps her feet. Otherwise she is covered, head to ankle.

"How can you fall in love if you can't see her face," 29-year-old Mohammed Daud told reporters. "We can see the boys, so we can tell which are beautiful."

Even after marriage, many men keep their boys, suggesting a loveless life at home. A favored Afghan expression goes: "Women are for children, boys are for pleasure." Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. One married man even asked Cardinalli's team "how his wife could become pregnant," her report said. When that was explained, he "reacted with disgust" and asked, "How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean?"

That helps explain why women are hidden away - and stoned to death if they are perceived to have misbehaved. Islamic law also forbids homosexuality. But the pedophiles explain that away. It's not homosexuality, they aver, because they aren't in love with their boys.

Addressing the loathsome mistreatment of Afghan women remains a primary goal for coalition governments, as it should be.

But what about the boys, thousands upon thousands of little boys who are victims of serial rape over many years, destroying their lives - and Afghan society.
"There's no issue more horrifying and more deserving of our attention than this," Cardinalli said. "I'm continually haunted by what I saw."
As one boy, in tow of a man he called "my lord," told the Reuters reporter: "Once I grow up, I will be an owner, and I will have my own boys."



© 2010 Joel Brinkley

Personal attacks and retorts are for when one is angry and/or has no argument. He isn't capable of angering me, and my argument was and is completely sound. Pedophilia is without a doubt the least acceptable behavior in American society, and there is no evidence that this trend is going away any time soon. This sentiment knows no cultural or socioeconomic bounds. Rich, poor, black, white, conservative, liberal, you name it. Child rape is public enemy number one. To claim that we're seeing a shift in culture to where "fifteen years from now", people who rape children like Jared Fogle will be accepted or lauded for their behavior is completely absurd.

That makes me want to throw up.

It is amazing how some people just explain away whet their Holy Book says as if "the writers really didn't mean what they said". Why believe in a religion if you have to go to such lengths to explain away your behavior?

There has been an a recent emphasis on consent (15 years) in America and a reduction of violence in marriage (past 60 years).

However, there has also been a shift towards acceptance of previously taboo sexual orientations and the overall "seriousness" of sexuality in terms of virginity and pair bonding. So homosexuality/trans has become more acceptable, however, casual sex and single motherhood have also become much more acceptable (even praised, yuck). Divorce rates have also sky rocketed. All these trends point towards sexuality being divorced/separated from traditional values and seriousness.


So the debate here is whether teenagers will be considered able to consent sexually with an adult. Currently many parents accept their children having sex with other children outside of wedlock before they are 18. It is reasonable to suggest the social mores could shift towards this being acceptable to do with adults. The DSM shift was relevant to this idea in my opinion.

As a relevant side note. The age of consent in Indiana where Jared did his philandering was 16. The crimes he committed were paying the girls and then his child porn. Technically sleeping with a 16 year old in Indiana is not a crime unless you are a teacher or guardian etc. or if you pay them.

This has less to do with legality and more to do with social acceptability which has clearly shifted dramatically in America towards less restrictions in all areas (outside of violence and date rape, thus the great statutory consent debate here).

There has been an a recent emphasis on consent (15 years) in America and a reduction of violence in marriage (past 60 years).

However, there has also been a shift towards acceptance of previously taboo sexual orientations and the overall "seriousness" of sexuality in terms of virginity and pair bonding. So homosexuality/trans has become more acceptable, however, casual sex and single motherhood have also become much more acceptable (even praised, yuck). Divorce rates have also sky rocketed. All these trends point towards sexuality being divorced/separated from traditional values and seriousness.


So the debate here is whether teenagers will be considered able to consent sexually with an adult. Currently many parents accept their children having sex with other children outside of wedlock before they are 18. It is reasonable to suggest the social mores could shift towards this being acceptable to do with adults. The DSM shift was relevant to this idea in my opinion.

As a relevant side note. The age of consent in Indiana where Jared did his philandering was 16. The crimes he committed were paying the girls and then his child porn. Technically sleeping with a 16 year old in Indiana is not a crime unless you are a teacher or guardian etc. or if you pay them.

This has less to do with legality and more to do with social acceptability which has clearly shifted dramatically in America towards less restrictions in all areas (outside of violence and date rape, thus the great statutory consent debate here).

Okie Dokie....

Embracing Teenage Sexuality: Let's Rethink the Age of Consent - Huffington Post
"The widespread decriminalization of homosexual intercourse over the past two decades has led many Western nations to reexamine "age of consent" statutes for both same-sex and opposite-sex couples. Great Britain, after considerable national debate, chose 16 at its magic number in 2003, although a minority of liberal Britons, led by gay rights activist Peter Tatchell, continue to push for a cut-off at 14 years. In 2008, Canada has also settled upon 16. French law sets the age of majority, in matters of romance, at 15. Our other closest cultural and moral allies fall into a similar range: Belgium (16), Denmark (15), Germany (14-16), Greece (15), Holland (16), Italy (14), Norway (16) and Sweden (15). The outliers are even lower, not higher, such as Spain's threshold of 13. What these nations have accepted, and many in this country still refuse to acknowledge, is that teenagers do have sex -- lots of it -- and that criminal law is neither an effective or an ethical means of deterring their sexual desires."


That's just one... dude you see it every day, how much we should try to emulate Europe.. emulate their healthcare, emulate their socialist tax structure, legalize drugs like them... I read one interesting quote from the attorney in the Mary Kay Letourneau civil case.. she was a 34 year old teacher having a relationship with a 12 year old student... the quote was, "You know, I had the Mary Kay Letourneau civil case out here in Seattle. And the books that were written about the two of them were sold as crime stories in the U.S. and as love stories in Europe."

It's not a big ground swell of support yet, but it's going to work its way more and more into the conversation... and eventually we will have much more serious discussions about it because... we want to be more like Europe.

Kingxob just posted the facts that states like Indiana have a age of consent at 16.

So like europe? Maybe they trying to be like us.

Could you highlight a section of your cited article that gives any indication that America is headed towards acceptance or heralding of a 38 year old man having sex with a 16 year old, or a 38 year old man viewing pornographic images of a 6 year old? The article seems entirely focused on age of consent laws in cases where there is an age gap of a few years between consenting partners. At no point does it even hint at a lax attitude towards pedophilia. Pedophilia is without a doubt the most reviled act one can commit in America, and there is no concrete or even circumstantial evidence that this is a declining trend.

Ohio's age of consent is at 16 and it's been that way long before gay people got any rights. Horrible article.

To be fair, I don't agree with the author of the article's point, but I took away from that that he's arguing on behalf of the age of consent law just among teenagers. I mean I think a 19 year old who wants to be sexually gratified by a 14 year old is a loser, plain and simple. That's too much. But the idea of a 19 year old having sex with his or her 17 year old girlfriend/boyfriend and being prosecuted? Doesn't seem productive.

So I'm going to go ahead and rock the boat a little bit. Understand that I think child porn and all this underage crap is disgusting.

However, me and Eve kinda touched on this and I'm surprised nobody had anything to say.

Barely 100-150 years ago, teens were getting married. Hell teens are getting married today in this country.

The age of consent was virtually non existent. So what happened that made the push?

In spring semester I was taking this course at CSU called race/class/gender.

This chick, 17, was arguing that she should be allowed to date whoever she wants. At 16, the country deems her old enough to be responsible and get a job, or prove that she can live on her own without her parents, but can't date an older guy?

I disagreed, but man she had a good point.

The age of consent in general is all over the place.

You can smoke, join the army and DIE, but not old enough to drink?