DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Manziel Continued

I concur.

I think it is time for Johnny to play. I fear that the powers that be are protective of not turning the QB position into the circus they did last season and now when they should come forward and take a shot with Johnny they won't do it.

But to be honest I had all but given up on the kid, and I think he is proving me wrong, It's time for him to play, he will surely go thru some growing pains but I think he is ready NOW.

With McCown we know what we have (nothing). Johnny looks the part and I think the best way for him to learn and grow now are to play.

This season was lost before it began with McCown and it may be with Johnny as well but he can gain the experience he needs now and he just may turn for the better and actually give us a fighting chance.

And even though coach John DeFilippo revealed Monday that it's Manziel's 3/4 release -- somewhere between a regular throw and a sidearm toss -- that's causing the problem, the Browns have no plans to teach their young dog new tricks.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/08/post_203.html#incart_river

BTTB, I agree if this was a normal situation. Don't forget Manziel spent a lengthy time in rehab. Throwing him into battle and he struggles could be a set back.

Besides I think it is more productive Manziel fights to take it. He's been given to much. He had the privilege last season and tossed it aside. Manziel must earn it not only for the Browns but for himself. I think Manziel is more focused and serious when someone calls him out and gives him ultimatum.

Cream always rises to the top. Manziel continues improving it won't be long.

After the season, 99% of the world had given up on Manziel he was a joke.

Pet had a plan. He fired the QB coach. He brought in the guy that had worked with Johnny before. He brought in his hand picked OC that made a name for himself for his work with young QBs. He brought in a vet that enjoys teaching and sharing his knowledge.

I may be the biggest Manziel fan on this board and I want to see him play but I cant really question Pet on this one. He had a plan and instead of the browns 90% given up on Johnny lol, I think 90% of the fan base want to see Johnny start. His plan for Johnny is working and if he doesnt think the kid is ready, he isnt ready.

IMHO he looks like a really good rookie QB in mid season. Its not great but you see some things that make you think you might have something and he is making quicker and better decisions.

I dont know how much better he is gonna get watching and not playing but for now, will trust Pet and his O staff with the kid.

They've not even scheduled or ordered a MRI, clearly it's just a 'let time heal' ordeal. Nothing to get concerned about.

A really good rookie QB? Okay.

He no longer looks like a spread QB trying to learn how to be an NFL QB. He looks like a QB ready to take that next step as the game begins to slow down for him. He has gained tremendous ground on Teddy and Carr. They are only slightly ahead of him now.

Although I agree, he's not looking lost and improvements are clearly evident, but now you're starting to compare him to Carr and Teddy.

Can't do that. Teddy and Carr played well during the regular season, JF thus far has only played well in preseason going up against second teamers and beyond...

Just saying let's not get ahead of ourselves. Who knows how JF will play when people are scheming, not playing base defense the majority and he's with/against first teamers.

j/c


IMHO, this is the correct course of action with him.

Allow him to see as much base D as he can get, so it's etched in his mind. Playing against #2's means that the D is a bit slower, giving him time to see/process what's happening. Playing behind our #2's simulates even matchups at the LOS (on a slower level)... so he's not getting any artificial advantage in pass pro.

When D's begin to ramp up their schemes, he has a much better chance of seeing the variation(s), because he's already learned the base formations. Less to process pre-snap and mid-play, because his learning curve isn't as steep.

As a fan, I'm willing to exercise some patience where JM is concerned. Better that he should be brought along at a pace that maximizes his chances for success, rather than rush him out there before he has his game on track.

I know there are a LOT of fans who think a 1st round draft pick should already be out there, but I have no problem at all with the philosophy that protects/nurtures/trains its investment. JM wasn't ready for the NFL: age-wise, maturity-wise or technique-wise. I have zero problem seeing him "in school," if it means a better chance for success in the near future.

He'll play when the staff thinks he's ready. I actually trust their judgement in this particular case.


.02

Me, too. Clem. I'd love up see him seize the No.1 role right now, but I will accept another year of apprenticeship if that's what is needed.

Start Johnny, I for one am tired of the stop gap journeyman QB coming here only to eventually crash and burn, give Johnny a chance, I mean these guys drafted him for that reason so get him started and then we will know what we have ... JMHO

Neither has taken that big leap yet. Both have shown tremendous promise but neither has been consistent. They are about where Tannehill was after his rookie year entering year 2.

Teddy looks most comfortable but he is the only one in the same system. Carr has the big arm and deep ball but he is learning a new system and it shows.

Johnny was light years behind them at the end of last year. I think he has taken major leaps to close the gap. He will be back farther behind once again however as they continue to mature and grow while he is watching from the pines.

I simply don't see how anyone can compare JFF playing second string in practice games to QB's that have had some success as staring NFL QB's.

There's nothing there to draw a comparison from.

Mourg is in love w/Johnny and that's okay, but he made two really dumb statements.

He said he trusts Pet's decision. I am wondering why? What GREAT success stories does Pet have in his background in regards to developing QBs? I think the answer is zero. Hell, has he even handled a qb situation before? Oh wait.....he did last year and that was one of the worst jobs of handling a qb situation that I ever saw.

He then says that JM is making up ground on Teddy and Carr. Has he been following the reports about Teddy at all? I have. And it ain't close. In fact, at this point in time, these two guys aren't even in the same zip code.

I havent followed reports, i watched their preseason games. First preseason game Teddy did nothing but check down very quickly. 2nd preseason game he led a couple decent drives but I wasnt very impressed with his throws.

You know what forget it. You guys want a fight and I just aint in the mood. I will just keep my dumb comments to myself. Good day to you.

And what great success stories do you have at developing NFL QB's?

Zero.

Great freaking reply, Dep.

ddub and DC.................see what I am talking about?

Mourg..........you know I like you, so don't get all ticked off. We all say things that aren't right.

Just think about it......

...Pet has no history of developing qbs.

...JM has not played so well that he is gaining ground on Teddy. I haven't watched Carr, so I can't comment....but man, he is playing as a backup and not exactly lighting it up. How is he gaining ground?

I like Johnny and want him to succeed. I have defended him. I am just checking you on the giddiness factor. I think it's cool that you are getting giddy, but it's also cool for me to keep it real.

No offense intended.

I think he has improved, but his lost year will always haunt him in the fans minds.

Vers, I think Pettine is now doing his first attempt at developing a QB. Everybody has to start somewhere. I don't think he will ever hand Johnny anything again. In fact, I would say that Johnny has to overacheive for Pettine's trust to be gained. Stick with Mccown, and make the kid hungry. If he has what it takes, it will surface. He is a competitive individual, and believe that now that his head is clear, his drive to be the best will surface.

I don't know how it will turn out, he just might not have enough to pull it off, but forcing him to earn it should be the best way to the wanted result.

As far as the comparison to the other two, there is none at this point.

You are making sense.

However, let me clarify............I did NOT say he can't evaluate QBs. I simply questioned Mourg on WHY he trusts Pet's QB evaluations and handling of QBs.

You can't put all the blame on Pettin. Didn't he hire Shannan and Loggains to help?

What does that have to do w/trusting Pet's evaluations?

I am not going to allow you guys to put words into my mouth.

I asked Mourg this....................what has Pet done to win over your confidence in him being a good evaluator and handler of QBs? That was my intent. Nothing else! Got it?

Huh? His evaluation in hiring the right people to do the job.

Agreed. The fact that he is still on this team is giving him a chance.

He completely mailed it in last year. Despite seeing teammates working their tails off he felt all he had to do was show up and he would "wreck this league." He had no clue what it takes to be a success in the league. He wasted an entire year and no one here owed him anything. He is on the roster, he is in camp and he is competing. That is all he deserves right now.

I think rather than Pet's success stories he's trusting the plan that Pet has laid out for Johnny.

I like it too. But man, I want to see him play.

I want to see Manziel play, but only because I've already seen McCown play (since 2002).

I don't know if Pett has a good plan.

And if he does I don't know if he will be able to execute it.

I don't know if Johnny is gaining ground on Carr and Teddy, but people need to stop acting like there is a lot of ground to make up. Carr won three freaking games last year. This is the type of stuff I'm talking about when I say people just like to complain.

The only thing I do know is that our ceiling with McCown is likely 5 wins.

And I know with McCown as the starter I have zero excitement for the season.

With Manziel at least there will be some mystery.

Seriously?

Most people on this board RIP HOYER. Johnny could not beat out this terrible qb. He was 0 and 2 as a starter and looked like freaking crap. And you say something that stupid?

Look, I am rooting for Johnny. But man, quit acting like people are making stuff up by saying Teddy and Carr are ahead of Johnny. You are the one who is being unreasonable, not us.

Yes, seriously.

Sorry.

Oh, and people make stuff up all the time on this board to fit their point of view.

So....Johnny is about equal to Teddy and Carr because he played a couple of "okay" quarters in preseason games?

Yeah................right.

If Carr was our QB last year and only won three games, people would be saying we need to draft a QB next year and that he doesn't have what it takes.

Browns fans have no perspective. Zero. They just like to complain.

Yeah Rish...............that perspective is unique to Brown's fans.

Give me a break.

Tim Couch believes Johnny Manziel's recurring elbow soreness 'cause for a little bit of concern'

Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
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on August 25, 2015 at 6:08 PM, updated August 25, 2015 at 9:03 PM
0



BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns' old Deuce had some sage advice for their new one: Take your time with the arm.

Former No. 1 overall pick Tim Couch, who battled elbow tendinitis throughout his NFL career, believes that Johnny Manziel's recurring elbow soreness is worrisome and that he might need to shut it down for a bit.

"When a quarterback takes some time off initially and feels good and then it flares up again, I think that's cause for a little bit of concern,'' Couch, the top pick in 1999 who's now an SEC football analyst for Fox Sports South, told Northeast Ohio Media Group.

Manziel cut his practice a half-hour short Sunday when he felt discomfort in the elbow after a deep ball to Josh Lenz. He came off the field pointing to the inside of his elbow and flexing his fingers. He rested Monday and Tuesday, but the Browns are hopeful he'll practice Wednesday and/or Thursday and play in the third preseason game Saturday night in Tampa.

The soreness was a recurrence of the "camp arm" Manziel experienced on Aug. 11, when he rested the practice before the preseason opener against the Redskins. But the Browns' medical staff determined that Sunday's flare-up wasn't serious enough to warrant an MRI.

Coach Mike Pettine stressed that the club doesn't think it's a long-term thing, and added that they won't tweak his throwing motion despite the fact they believe his 3/4 release -- between an overhand throw and sidearm toss -- is at least partly to blame.

But the fact the elbow acted up on Manziel less than two weeks after the first day off is what has Couch troubled. None of the other three quarterbacks in camp has experienced arm trouble.

"I can only address how it affected me,'' said Couch, who watched Manziel at Texas A&M and has followed his Browns career. "I haven't really watched his mechanics close enough to tell if it's something that he's doing that's causing stress on his elbow. I haven't really studied it.

"But I know for me, it was pretty bad. It was pretty severe. I missed a couple of games (in 2002) from elbow tendinitis during training camp. It was significant time off for me.''

Couch believes that his elbow soreness led to a pair of subsequent shoulder surgeries to repair a torn labrum and torn rotator cuff -- in 2005 and 2006 -- that ended his NFL career.

"For me I started changing where I was delivering the ball from because I was having so many issues with the elbow,'' he said. "I had two shoulder surgeries (to repair a torn labrum and torn rotator cuff) after that, and it all kind of started in my elbow.''

Couch emphasized that "I'm not suggesting that's going to happen with Johnny by any means, but that's kind of what happened to me and kind of the root of what started off my shoulder issues.''

Couch said if he had to do it all over again, he would have shut down his arm for a long time and let it heal completely. Instead, he sat out the first two games of the 2002 season, and then went 8-6 in the final 14 games.

"Really, the only way to heal it is to take time off and not use it, and obviously that's not going to happen for a quarterback, especially this time of year,'' he said. "So, it's just tough to get it healthy and get the inflammation down.''

Couch said he unconsciously altered his throwing motion to compensate for the elbow pain.

"I changed my release point a little, kind of trying to find different slots to the throw the ball into where it wasn't affecting my elbow as much,'' said Couch. "As a result of that, it kind of took a toll on my shoulder.''

He said he began his career with an over-the-top motion.

"Then when I started getting some elbow issues, I started dropping my arm a little bit and couldn't really get it up as high,'' he said. "I just didn't feel good. I just didn't have the usual amount of zip on the ball that I was used to having.

"Once that elbow flares up it's really hard. It affects the grip pressure and the release, and you start messing with things and tweaking things a little bit to help you try to find a place to throw the ball from a little more comfortably. That can definitely result in some other issues for sure.''

Couch emphasized that he has no idea what Manziel is feeling or how long it's been bothering him. Manziel is believed, however, to have experienced elbow soreness at other times in his career. But while Couch was diagnosed with tendinitis, Manziel's pain has been described so far only as soreness.

"I'm certainly not suggesting that (secondary injuries) are going to happen to him, but that's kind of what happened to me,'' said Couch. "You can do it without even noticing. You just kind of go out there and all of a sudden your arm is hurting so bad during practice that you just kind of alter it a little bit and the next thing you know that becomes a habit and you have to watch that.

"If I could go back and look at it again, I'd definitely not want to do that. I'd just want to take the necessary time off that's required to get myself healthy, where I could go out and throw with the mechanics and throwing motion that I was used to throwing with.''

Couch agrees with the Browns' strategy of not altering Manziel's mechanics, which vary from throw to throw.

"He's been throwing that way for a long time and he's got a lot of different releases it looks like,'' said Couch. "Sometimes he throws sidearm and other times he's over the top. It all depends on where he is in the pocket, if he's on the move, all of those kinds of things, but he uses a lot of different release points is what it looks like to me.''

Instead, Couch recommends resting it as much as possible.

"(Shutting him down) wouldn't be a bad idea if he's going to continue to have these flare-ups,'' said Couch. "This is the second one so far in camp. Once the season starts, I think it'll calm down for him since he's not going to be the starter. He won't be throwing. There's a lot less workload on his arm.''

Couch said he had to undergo constant treatment on his arm, including massage and ice to try to reduce the inflammation.

"I would take a couple of days off and then it would flare back up again,'' he said. "It was just one of those things I constantly battled and I couldn't really get under control. It's hard to take the time off and you don't want to miss time because you're obviously competing for a job and you want to be out there as much as possible.''

Fortunately for the Browns, Manziel isn't really competing for the starting job at this point and can afford to cut back on the reps. Pettine has already said he's comfortable with Manziel as the No. 2 and Josh McCown as the No. 1, even though he's not ready to declare McCown the opening-day starter.

If need be, the Browns could rest Manziel the final two preseason games and let Thad Lewis relieve McCown.

Based on the description of Manziel's condition, Dr. Bert Mandelbaum, orthopedic surgeon at the Santa Monica Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Group in Santa Monica, Calif., said "it could be anything but I think the best clear way to describe it would be to overuse syndrome in the medial (inside) elbow.''

He said treatment "is a combination of cutting back a little bit, rest, ice, compression, elevation -- the old RICE -- and the possible the use if anti-inflammatories. I'm sure the Browns are using all kinds of modalities, ultrasound, stimulation.''

McCown said Monday "I know Johnny's in there all the time getting treatment and doing the things he can to help himself, too'' and Manziel said he ices the elbow after every practice.

Mandelbaum said, "I think the devil's in the details. Shutting a quarterback down usually comes as the consequence of a long story not a short story. With overuse syndrome, you've got to back off. You need to get this to quell. Ultimately it should respond to that and then you can move ahead.''

Mandelbaum observed that "if he didn't need an MRI, that's a good thing.''

By all accounts, Manziel's arm will be fine with a little rest, and it won't bother him once camp's over.

Couch, for one, certainly hopes that's the case Link

So first year head coaches aren't allowed to make mistakes in staffing? BTW, Shanny was looked at as the best hire we could get last year. Who knew that situation would blow up?

Pet did not hire Shanny. he wanted Flip. Shanny was hired by Banner and now both are in Atlanta.

An article on Manziel with quotes from Tim Couch. If the author stuck Brady Quinn in there I'd be cleaning up brains off my keyboard.

(Yes, I realize if my head exploded I wouldn't be alive to clean up. It was a joke.)

Next Mary Kay Cosmetic is going to call up Holcomb for his thoughts.
Mary Kay is obsessed with quarterbacks . It's all she ever writes about. And that article was way too damn long.