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Wow. My church has the financials displayed on a bulletin board just outside of the sanctuary. We have the beginning balances, with expenses, incomes, and ending balances, for all of the various accounts in the church. There are no secrets in our church. Our trustee and ad board meetings are open to all who wish to participate.

Secrets in a church lead to problems in a church .... at least IMHO.

You and YTown bring up the ways a good Church operates. I'd say the vast majority of Churches conduct their business with transparency. Both of your Churches reach out and help the community. I know from reading DC's posts that his Church does as well. Yet those Churches never make the headlines.

It's the Jimmy Swaggerts and Jim Bakers of the world who make the headlines. Sensationalism sells. Good Churches are a wonderful help to their communities and a wonderful thing to be a part of.

Most churches raise as much money as they need to keep functioning and pay their staff a reasonable salary.. then everything else goes to help the community...

Some "churches" have convinced people that sending them money is actually buying their own salvation... those are the ones that give the rest a bad name.

And I just want to add one thing ..... there are a lot of good churches in the world, and probably good churches in most communities. If a Christian is not satisfied with his/her current church, look for a different one. Don't just give up.

It always amazes me ..... would a person have a bad experience with a woman and just swear off dating and/or marriage forever? Would a person have a poor experience at a job, and then say "Well, that's it, I am never working again", or breath some badly polluted air and swear off breathing forever? Of course not. But many have a poor church experience, and instead of looking for a new church, they just give up.

I wish that more Christians would take a few Sundays and look for a new church if they have given up on theirs. It's what I wound up doing once I decided to get off my butt and go back to church. I went to maybe half a dozen churches, but none really spoke to me until I found my church. It was not what I wanted, at least what I originally thought I wanted. It is a much older church, and I wanted one with younger people ..... but I think that God put me here for a reason. Maybe He'll do the same for others, if they take a look around.

I know that I am extremely happy with my church, and am happy that I have been able to contribute some of my talents to the church. I hope that I am able to contribute something that may help the church grow. I cannot go out and do a lot of stuff on my feet, but I have a lot of ideas, and my Pastor has been happy to listen to my ideas, and to allow me to work on some projects for the church.

Kind of amazing how other churches post the economics of everything. You'd be seen as a leper or instigator if you'd asked for financial records at my church. I just did a massive outreach event at my church and they refused to let me see how much we made.

To my way of thinking, that's just wrong. Yearly, our ENTIRE church financial picture is broken down. The reports are ready mid January or so. From the pastors salaries, benefits, to the secretary, health insurance, lawn care, snow plowing, electric......everything.

Budget is broken down weekly, year to date, and put in the weekly bulletin. We see the surplus some months, the deficit some months. Heck, even a stranger could walk in and know what our ytd numbers are. Benevolent fund included.

Fish Food pantry: Bam, 1 month a year, it's up to us to furnish the food, along with our monthly financial contribution. (Fish Food pantry - sounds like it's fish - it's not, it's a food bank: bread, cereals, diapers, canned goods - you name it - available to needy people. It is a seperate entity that most churches in the area donate to. I don't think they ever have fish. I think FISH is an acronym).

If the finances of your church bother you, work to change them, or find a new church. JMO Or better yet, get involved on committees (if you have them). It's good for you, it's good for the church, and it's good for the public.

On a side note, the Pastor has been asking me to be on the finance committee because "we need people like you on it. People that know how to run things". I'm on the stewardship committee as it is.

Now, that's patting myself on the back - but from a financial standpoint - our church is run like a business - and it isn't the pastor and treasurer making financial decisions.

Could be an acronym.. or it could be from the story of Jesus feeding 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and two fish..

What makes it even worse, our "treasurer" is the Pastors wife....

Just got off the phone with the church - the pastor actually. Asked him "hey, what does "Fish" stand for, in regards to the Fish food pantry?"

He said "I don't think Fish is an acronym. It's more a symbol. Back in the day, an outline of a fish outside a home was a symbol that the home was a Christian home."

FISH

Fellowship In Serving Humanity

I'd run, or at the very least, stop contributing until the books are opened.

I haven't been following this thread, but ran across this article today... Interesting... (I'm thinking it's a fake, but don't know for certain...)

Origins of 'Gospel of Jesus's Wife' Begin to Emerge

http://news.yahoo.com/origins-gospel-jesuss-wife-begin-emerge-115640514.html

LiveScience.com

By Owen Jarus
3 hours ago

The truth may be finally emerging about the "Gospel of Jesus's Wife," a highly controversial papyrus suggesting that some people, in ancient times, believed Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. New research on the papyrus' ink points to the possibility that it is authentic, researchers say, while newly obtained documents may shed light on the origins of the business-card-sized fragment.

Debate about the credibility of the "gospel" began as soon as Harvard University professor Karen King reported her discovery of the papyrus in September 2012. Written in Coptic (an Egyptian language), the papyrus fragment contains a translated line that reads, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife …'" and also refers to a "Mary," possibly Mary Magdalene.

King had tentatively dated the papyrus to the fourth century, saying it may be a copy of a gospel written in the second century in Greek. [Read Translation of Gospel of Jesus's Wife Papyrus]

Analysis of the papyrus, detailed last year in the Harvard Theological Review journal, suggested the papyrus dates back around 1,200 years (somewhere between the sixth and ninth centuries) while the ink is of a type that could have been created at that time. These findings have led King to support the text's authenticity.

However over the past year many scholars have come to the conclusion that the papyrus is a modern-day forgery, though King and a few other researchers say they are not ready to concede this: "At this point, when discussions and research are ongoing, I think it is important, however difficult, to stay open regarding the possible dates of the inscription and other matters of interpretation," wrote King in a letter recently published in the magazine Biblical Archaeological Review. King has not responded to several interview requests from Live Science.

Now, researchers at Columbia University are running new tests on the ink used on the papyrus. Initial tests published by the Columbia University team in 2014 indicated the ink could have been made in ancient times. Researchers are saying little until their report is published; however they did talk about one finding that could provide some support for its authenticity.

A gospel steeped in mystery

The current owner of the papyrus has insisted on remaining anonymous, claiming that he bought the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, along with other Coptic texts, in 1999 from a man named Hans-Ulrich Laukamp. This person, in turn, got it from Potsdam, in what was East Germany, in 1963, the owner said.

Laukamp died in 2002, and the claim that he owned the text has been strongly disputed: Rene Ernest, the man whom Laukamp and his wife Helga charged with representing their estate, said that Laukamp had no interest in antiquities, did not collect them and was living in West Berlin in 1963. Therefore, he couldn't have crossed the Berlin Wall into Potsdam. Axel Herzsprung, a business partner of Laukamp's, similarly said that Laukamp never had an interest in antiquities and never owned a papyrus. Laukamp has no children or living relatives who could verify these claims.

Over the past few months, new documents have been found that not only reconstruct Laukamp's life in greater detail, but also provide a new way to check the anonymous owner's story.

King reported in a 2014 Harvard Theological Review article that the anonymous owner "provided me with a photocopy of a contract for the sale of '6 Coptic papyrus fragments, one believed to be a Gospel' from Hans-Ulrich Laukamp, dated Nov. 12, 1999, and signed by both parties." King also notes that "a handwritten comment on the contract states, 'Seller surrenders photocopies of correspondence in German. Papyri were acquired in 1963 by the seller in Potsdam (East Germany).'"

After searching public databases in Florida a Live Science reporter uncovered seven signatures signed by Laukamp between 1997 and 2001 on five notarized documents. Anyone can search these databases and download these documents. These signatures can be compared with the signature recording the sale of the Gospel of Jesus's Wife — providing another way to verify or disprove the story of how the "gospel" made its way to Harvard.

While Harvard University would have to work with forensic handwriting experts to verify the signature, the fact that these notarized documents exist, and are publicly available, presents the opportunity to see if Laukamp really did own the Gospel of Jesus's Wife. Forensic handwriting analysis, while not always conclusive, has been used to determine if signatures made on documents or works of art are authentic or forged.

If Laukamp did own the papyrus, authentic or not, then the origins of the enigmatic text lie with him. The new Laukamp documents allow the story of his life between 1995 and 2002 to be told in some detail. However if Laukamp didn't own the papyrus and the anonymous owner has not been truthful, then further doubt would be cast on the papyrus' authenticity, and information leading to the identity, motives and techniques of the forgers could be found.

Authentic or forged?

One important find, which indicates the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a fake, was made last year by Christian Askeland, a research associate with the Institute for Septuagint and Biblical Research in Wuppertal, Germany. He examined a second Coptic papyrus containing part of the Gospel of John, which the anonymous owner of the Gospel of Jesus's Wife had also given to Harvard. This text was likewise supposedly purchased from Laukamp, and radiocarbon testing of that papyrus similarly found that it dates back around 1,200 years. [See Images of the Ancient Gospel of Judas]

Askeland found that the text and line breaks— where one line of a text ends and another begins — are identical to those of another papyrus, published in a 1924 book. That second papyrus was written in a dialect of Coptic called Lycopolitan, which went extinct around 1,500 years ago. Askeland concluded that the John papyrus is a forgery. Furthermore, it shares other features with the Gospel of Jesus's Wife, Askeland said, suggesting both are forgeries.

"The two Coptic fragments clearly shared the same ink, writing implement and scribal hand. The same artisan had created both essentially at the same time," Askeland wrote in a paper recently published in the journal New Testament Studies.

King objected to this conclusion in her Biblical Archaeology Review letter, noting that the John fragment could have been copied in ancient times, long after Lycopolitan went extinct, from a text that had similar line breaks.

In addition, James Yardley, a senior research scientist at Columbia University, told Live Science that the new tests confirm that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife holds different ink than the John papyrus. This could undercut Askeland's argument that the two papyri were written by the same person.

"In our first exploration, we did state that the inks used for the two documents of interest [the John papyrus and the Gospel of Jesus's Wife] were quite different. The more recent results do confirm this observation strongly," Yardley told Live Science.

He added that until his new research is published in a peer-reviewed journal, he doesn't want to say anything more publicly. And once it's published, Askeland and other researchers will have a chance to respond.

Askeland's find is far from the only argument that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a fake: A number of scholars have noted that the Coptic writing in the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is similar to another early Christian text called the "Gospel of Thomas," even including a modern-day typo made in a 2002 edition of the Gospel of Thomas that is available for free online. That typo indicates the forgers copied from this modern-day text. King disputed this assertion in 2014, saying that ancient scribes made grammatical errors similar to the modern-day typo.

King and communications staff at Harvard Divinity School have not responded to repeated requests for comment.

Follow Live Science@livescience, Facebook & Google+. Original article on Live Science.

Religious Mysteries: 8 Alleged Relics of Jesus
The Holy Land: 7 Amazing Archaeological Finds
Proof of Jesus Christ? 7 Pieces of Evidence Debated
Copyright 2015 LiveScience, a Purch company. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Good read. Thanks for posting it.

So, the Bible has been around for 2000 years and a lot of people of science do not believe it at all... but a 6" square piece of papyrus that may or may not end up being authentic, and may or may not reference a wife for Jesus, means the truth is finally emerging?

I have never seen why Jesus being married would be a problem. How does that make him less that what he was reported to be?

To defend the marriage theory, his disciples called him 'Rabbi'. Jewish law stipulates that rabbis must be married, otherwise they are not rabbis.

Jesus' bride is the church.

You're welcome, buddy. I figured you'd find it interesting!

Somebody told me He was married with kids and had a place in Brooklyn. No?

My father grew up in Brooklyn, told me it's the only place in the world he knew of that you could be laying in the street with a knife in your back and people who come along instead of helping, would bet on how long you'd live.

I can't think of a place he's more needed.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015...-wed-four-times

you been marry four times? how can you possibly live thinking you have moral high ground over anybody's lifestyle?

I don't think Jesus was married and had kids. I mean if you know your going to die and have to leave the woman how could you justify marrying them? Still the Bible doesn't say so one way or the other so to God it must not be important. I mean he had a man's body so if he wanted to have sex as most men do then he obviously would get married. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes at least. He lived the life of a carpenter for most of his life and I am sure his mom would have maybe wanted to have him married when he was young like the customs of his day. For all we know he got married at age 13 like most jewish men did back then.

Nothing wrong with the Idea of Jesus being married and living a normal life until it was time to start his ministry. I just think he probably wasn't but that is just MY opinion. Nobody knows for sure.

She doesn't need to be passing out marriage licenses, she needs to be a movie of the week.

Replying to myself, but the more I read about this woman, the angrier I get. What a pathetic, oblivious, selfish, lazy leech. Do your job or give back your paycheck. We all get up in the morning and have reservations about what we do. Part of me feels sorry for her because I think she's not bright enough to recognize that her lawyers are taking her for a ride. But the sympathy dries up with every taxpayer dollar she wastes to facilitate her self-indulgent temper tantrum.

I support her. She is fighting for what she believes is right. Sure she had a messed up life but she gave herself to God and asked for forgiveness and according to that article radically changed her life. She doesn't want to go back to a life of sin and neither do many of the other clerks. It would be interesting if they went on strike to protest the court's overreaching their authority.

Sounds like she's given herself to a lot of things

Hmmmm.

She has a sinful past as all sinners do but she says she has repented.

She has made a stand in the face of overwhelming scrutiny.

What would Jesus say?

Hmm ... what would Jesus say to a sinner?

Well, in Luke 13: 1-5, Jesus said:

There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”


So, it sounds as though she has repented of her sins, and has accepted Christ as her Savior, and is concerned not to sin against her Lord to the best of her ability. Sounds, from the outside, like she might be on pretty solid ground with God.

Sinners are not perfect, just forgiven.

"1 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority. 8 Owe nothing to anyone—except for your obligation to love one another. If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill the requirements of God’s law. 9 For the commandments say, “You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not covet.” These—and other such commandments—are summed up in this one commandment: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God’s law. 11 This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is almost gone; the day of salvation will soon be here. So remove your dark deeds like dirty clothes, and put on the shining armor of right living. 13 Because we belong to the day, we must live decent lives for all to see. Don’t participate in the darkness of wild parties and drunkenness, or in sexual promiscuity and immoral living, or in quarreling and jealousy. 14 Instead, clothe yourself with the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. And don’t let yourself think about ways to indulge your evil desires."

Romans 13

By not following the law of the land, she is still sinning and clearly does not love God.

uh oh, it's a Bible verse-off.

Going on strike on is precisely what she has been doing the last month or so. Tomorrow, the state will rule that she needs to either do her job like a grown up, find another job and stop leeching off the taxpayer like a parasite, or get levied with fines.

Is it too late to retract my "She doesn't love God" comment? I only said that to push some buttons and make a stronger stance. I didn't mean it

i see the normal people are giving excuses for this woman. not surprised.

God's authority huh? I guess God authorized those 4 marriages and 3 divorces, too?

also, if a man is muslim and decides he doesn't want to issue driver's license to women because of religious reasons, i hoe you stand behind him just like this lady.

cause if not, once again, you guys are hypocrites.

Why not just fire the parasite Christian? No, perhaps she should be
made an example of. Let's take away everything she owns and
march her thru the streets as a warning to others of Faith!
Lions? Nah, too soon.

The lady has a job that requires her to follow the law. Either she can perform that job or she can't.

Since she's breaking the law and court order, I would give her one of two options.

Go to jail for contempt of court, which she is surely guilty of. Or resign because she can not perform her job according to the law. It's really quite simple.

I'd also like to show that she's also sinning

At least that's one thing she appears to be good at.

The Bible also tells us not to submit to sinful orders from governments, but rather obey God before all others. God has His reasons for placing sinful governments in authority, like when He directed Nebuchadnezzar, an idol worshiper, to conquer Israel and Judea to punish those peoples for their sins. He allowed the people time to repent beforehand, and change, but they followed their leaders into sin, worshiping idols instead of God.

Acts 5:29 tells us: Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings!

Jesus rebelled against the authority of the Pharisees, who were a form of government for the people of Israel. Why? Because they were a corrupt group, taking the authority of God and using it for their own purposes, and leading people astray, away from God.

God does not expect us to obey ungodly orders from anyone. Jesus warned us against leading others astray, and away from God. The excuse of "I was only doing what I was told" is not enough to make that direct disobedience to God all better. God will forgive us, but I do believe that we will face some sort of loss of glory, or possibly even the loss of our salvation, if we work against God's Word, and God's will. We need to be careful, and follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, through prayer and also study the Bible. Perhaps God has a purpose where a corrupt person or people rise to power.

One other thing; Jesus was the ultimate rebel. He taught in violation of the edicts of the authorities, and told His followers, after His resurrections, to go teach the word to all people. (often in violation of the local authorities)

We must obey our government, unless that tell us to do things that go against what God says. God is above all earthly authority. Ordinary orders, yes. If the government tells us to keep our grass below 8 inches in height, that's fine. If they tell us to sacrifice our children to a pagan god ...... well, God would say "No" to that.

If we obey God to the best of our abilities, pray for guidance, and accept God's lead; repent of our sins, and surrender ourselves to God's authority and love, and do out best to teach and spread God's love to others, we will be just fine.