DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Roster/etc moves in Cleveland..

Because our wide receivers were not good enough last year and we are running out the same group, just adding Hartline. Unless you are anticipating a huge jump in production from Gabriel (which is possible), then our group is not good enough (with or without Bowe).

It was a glaring hole the entire off-season and we did the bare minimum to try and fill it.

Bowe may be in trouble after all

Hard to tell if the WR's are good enough when the QB isn't good enough.

Well Bowe hasn't been good for years, so there is that.

Which you can see by all those TD's caught by the other KC WR's.

No love for Bowe here, but I think are WR's as a group will be as good as the guy throwing them the football.

No one in KC is missing Dwayne Bowe. Fact. He hasn't been good for awhile

Lost Yds TD Yds TD
2007 KC 16 70 995 62.2 14.2 2 5 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2008 KC 16 86 1022 63.9 11.9 2 7 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2009 KC 11 47 589 53.5 12.5 1 4 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2010 KC 16 72 1162 72.6 16.1 5 15 1 4 .3 4.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2011 KC 16 81 1159 72.4 14.3 3 5 1 12 .8 12.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2012 KC 13 59 801 61.6 13.6 2 3 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
2013 KC 15 57 673 44.9 11.8 0 5 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2014 KC 15 60 754 50.3 12.6 0 0 0 0 .0 .0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4184/dwayne-bowe

better than our typical WR performances.

I, for one, am not dissing Bowe for his lack of TD's.

I am dissing him for these facts:

--substance abuse issues

--alligator arms

--underachieving

--dropping passes

Does that help?

I'll stand by my statement above.

No love for Bowe here, but I think are WR's as a group will be as good as the guy throwing them the football.

Hawkins, Hartline, and Gabriel will be better than Hawkins, Gabriel, and Austin even without improvement from Gabriel. I thought what we had last year was good enough if we had adequate QB play. Benjamin looks like a totally different player this year. Lenz and Jennings look promising. I think Gabriel can take the next step too. Not to mention Pryor could be a hidden gem.

If you put the WR's we have on Seattle or NE, you'd get pretty damn good production. Which brings us back to whether or not someone can get them the ball efficiently.

I agree w/you about the qb, but I don't see how you can simply ignore the facts I pointed out about Bowe.

Just sayin'

I'm not ignoring them at all, I agree with just about all of that you posted.

Okay. And again..................I agree w/you about the qb situation. That's even more important. You are right.

Re-reading maybe this will help....


No love for Bowe here...
<---------------------

I had forgotten all about him, to be honest. He is still on the roster, but hasn't really stood out at all that I can remember.

We still have a total of 10 DL. I really can't see us keeping more than 8 or 9 at the DL position.

We have:

A. Bryant
D. Bryant
X Cooper
J Hughes
McDaniel
Meder
Shelton
Starks
B. Winn
D. Wynn

Right now I do think that 3 players are competing for 1-2 spots, and I really think that it's going to be 8 spots. These players would be McDaniel, Winn, and Wynn, IMHO.

Wynn was reported to be doing well in camp, but has had very limited impact in the games.

Winn has been injured, and only recently returned to camp action. He should be a shoe in, but he really was one to watch this camp, and he hasn't shown up at all. I think that he needs to show up big this Thursday.

McDaniel was on the PS last year, I have to suspect that he will not make the team this year though. IIRC, he was with the team for one game last year, before being cut again. He does have some ..... interesting ... hair though.

My gut says that this comes down to Winn vs Wynn. (quite a stretch there, huh) I have a feeling that Dylan might be the odd man out, and may have a great shot at landing on the PS, since he hasn't really shown a whole lot in the actual games so far. Winn does have a history, even though I don't feel that it is as great as some fans do. However, barring a true breakout game by Wynn, I think that it's Winn for the win for the Browns.

I have a question. Was Shane Winn cut so early so we could sneak him onto the PS? Are we trying to be extra sneaky? I feel like we are. The guy showed a ton in camp. Otherwise, I feel bad for the guy. With his size issue, he knew he really had to stud out in camp to get a shot, and he ended up doing that only to get nailed in the first round of cuts. I feel really bad for the guy if he didn't get pulled aside and told we'd be picking him back up.

2007 we had a wide receiver better than Bowe (Braylon Edwards).
2008 we had a wide receiver put up similar numbers to Bowe (Braylon Edwards).
2009 we had a wide receiver put up better than Bowe (Mohamed Massaquoi).
2010 Bowe was clearly better than all of our receivers.
2011 Bowe was clearly better than all of our receivers.
2012 we had a wide receiver better than Bowe (Josh Gordon).
2013 we had a wide receiver better than Bowe (Josh Gordon).
2014 we had a wide receiver better than Bowe (Andrew Hawkins).

Bowe is basically an average wide receiver. Maybe he would be better with improved QB play, but he is not getting that on this team.

The apparent disgust for Bowe is, IMO, justifiable.

As of this moment in the season, to me, it's clear he shouldn't have gotten all that guaranteed money. As of right now, I'd rather have kept Shane and moved on from Dwayne.

Bowe isn't getting cut, so we can do nothing except hope he can get things going.

Winn and McDaniel get. Wynn gets cut and signed to the PS if he doesn't get picked up.

I agree Eo. That is why Taylor was let go IMO. He doesn't have the explosion some of the others do. About the only time you might want both Shelton and Taylor in there is a goal line situation.

I was kinda thinking this too. The thing is that he had the explosion before. His injuries may have affected him more than we know. If that's the case, those of you thinking we could just trade him are assuming that he could pass the physical for the other team.

Phil Taylor just never seemed to have the feel of a 1st round pick ... even when thinking of our 1st round selections of the past, I usually forget about him.

i can't state enough how much of a train wreck those 2011 and 2012 draft picks were.

none of them are on our team anymore.

wow. yet the guy we COULD'VE got just got an extension cause he is arguably the best WR not named Megatron.

could have swore last year when taylor was playing i saw him and rubin both out there at the same time......

Lets face it, Taylor was a slow fat guy who stiffed a naïve GM for a out of line guarantee.

To be fair we brought in Big Phil and Sheard to play in Jauron's defense and they played exceptionally well in that scheme. They helped put us into the top 10 defenses that year. System changes and Big Phil just wasnt disciplined enough to play NT and Sheard just wasnt limber enough to be effective as an OLB.

The draft that killed us was trading up for Trich and selecting Weeden. Traded up for a RB coming off a knee surgery in a league which has completely devalued the RB position and then drafted a 30 year old spread QB. I liked Heckert but those moves were the most idiotic moves I have seen.

I do agree Phil is a better fit in Jauron's defensive scheme. The "exceptionally well" bit I disagree.

In my opinion, Phil was a disappointment every since arriving in Cleveland. Day Farmer drafted Shelton I thought it would light a fire. Watching Phil play against Tampa resulted in the same old thing DL being swallowed up. Phil lacks intensity making others around him excel.

I don't think Taylor was a bust and more than Warren. They just played their game and it wasn't what some fans expected. I hope people do realize that Shelton isn't going to rack up big numbers. I think most do since he is a NT and most people know that.

Taqylor wasn't the Merlin Olsen of Fearsome Foursome fame. He was the Rosey Grier type player. The guy who controled the line. Not the guy who blew in to the backfield.

Props for taking me back to being a kid watching "the late game" on Sunday afternoons with the Rams' Fearsome Foursome reference. Deacon Jones and Lamar Lundy were pretty good bookend DE's too. In Browns terms, I'd compare it to the Browns' DT tandem in the 70's, Jerry Sherk and Walter Johnson. While Sherk was wreaking havoc in opponents' backfields, Johnson was eating blockers, clogging the middle/inside running lanes, and just doing an all-around solid job. Walter never got the credit he deserved back then, either. By the way, Sherk and Johnson, along with Joe Jones and Jack Gregory as the DE's, was probably the best D-Line I've ever seen in the Brown and Orange..

Great werk if you can find it! Had high hopes for him. OK with Shelton.

Wow, so trading down and passing on better talent isn't always the best option? Crazy. We're gonna see the same thing happen with the Sammy Watkins trade.

When you're picking low, you need superstar talent to build around. That gets lost because fans want to be like New England. Well guess what, they have Tom Brady and Bill Belicheck. Get great core franchise players first and then build your team. Stop getting cute with the draft every damn year.

I don't think the team will miss Taylor, I tried looking up Phil Taylor hightlights to see his great plays but the only thing I could find was some guy really good at darts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw1hTcSA6dk

Something tells me you would be singing a different tune if we currently had Odell Beckham Jr. and Teddy Bridgewater on the team.

That's funny, I don't care who you are.

Haha I hope he was good at least

I agree with both you and Tab. I also believe that Vers made a comment about scheme.

When you play multiple schemes and fronts, it is a huge help to have that explosiveness. I believe you can keep Shelton in on a 4 man front without losing that edge in explosiveness you would with a player like Taylor.

It makes it much more effective moving from the 3-4 to the 4-3 when the DL on the field have the versatility of some speed and explosiveness. Players that can accomplish having size, speed and explosiveness are optimum players when employing multiple schemes and fronts.

Interesting from Pluto. I wonder if Taylor was one of those who had a sense of entitlement?

Cleveland Browns sending the right message by cutting Phil Taylor -- Terry Pluto (photos) | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/09/post_125.html#incart_social_feature

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- There's more than the Browns' dismal 2011 draft behind the story of Phil Taylor's contract being terminated.

It's the fact that Jamie Meder is still with the team, but the Browns are willing to pay Taylor's $5.5 million fully guaranteed salary for 2015 knowing the defensive lineman could end up playing for another team.

The Browns made the decision that third-rounders John Hughes and Xavier Cooper, along with undrafted free agent Meder, are more likely to help the team this season than Taylor, whose main problem is injuries. He has missed 20 of a possible 64 games in his four-year career. He had two knee surgeries last season, limiting him to five games.

Taylor is only 27. When in shape and healthy, he had some games that made him seem worthy of being the 21st pick in the 2011 draft. NEOMG's Tom Reed wrote an excellent story about how the Browns passed on Julio Jones, and traded down to add draft picks starting with Taylor. None of the four picks in that deal for the star receiver are with the Browns.

That was a trade by Tom Heckert, the general manager from 2010-12. It's a dubious record for Heckert. He does deserve credit for drafting the last first-rounder for the Browns who actually plays like a first-rounder.

That's Pro Bowler Joe Haden, the team's first-round pick in 2010.

THE REAL MESSAGE

At this point, I don't know if the 310-pound Meder will make the final roster. The Valley Forge and Ashland product has impressed the coaches since he was picked up near the end of last season after being cut by the Ravens. He played the final game of the 2014 season against Baltimore and drew excellent reviews from General Manager Ray Farmer and others.

It's 2015 first-round pick Danny Shelton who has taken over Taylor's job at nose tackle. Veteran Randy Starks was signed in the off-season, and he's also in the defensive line plans. But a reasonably productive Taylor could still have been of value. Coach Mike Pettine likes to rotate defensive linemen, often playing at least six during most games.

Taylor didn't show enough to stay in their plans. That will catch the attention of everyone in the locker room. A guaranteed contract does not guarantee a roster spot.

Barkevious Mingo has been out with a knee injury. He has returned to practice. But even when healthy, it appeared Scott Solomon had moved ahead of Mingo at outside linebacker. Mingo was the team's first-round pick in 2013. He can be valuable if he stays healthy. Solomon has been cut five times by three teams before joining the Browns late in the 2014 season.

Like Meder, he has played his way into the hearts of the coaches.

DRAFT POSITION, STARTING POSITIONS

It's obvious that 2014 first-rounder Justin Gilbert will have to dramatically improve to see much action. Gilbert has been out for two weeks with a hip flexor. Before that, he had a very rocky training camp. Fourth-rounder Pierre Desir and undrafted K'Waun Williams were ahead of him when the coaches put some of their depth charts together for the defensive backfield.

You prefer those doing the drafting to get it right in the first round. Eric Mangini did it with Alex Mack in 2009, although the rest of his draft that year was a mess.

Heckert hit a home run with Haden in 2010, although lots of draft strikeouts followed between 2010-12.

The only other first-rounder in the lineup is All-Pro tackle Joe Thomas, selected by former GM Phil Savage in 2007.

EARNING THE JOB

You can be sure that Farmer and Pettine would like to plug Gilbert into the lineup. They drafted the guy in 2014 at No. 8 overall.

Owner Jimmy Haslam obviously was intrigued with Johnny Manziel (No. 22 in 2014) and you can debate what influence he had on that selection. Farmer has always said that Manziel was his pick.

This much is certain, the football guys (Farmer and Pettine) selected Gilbert, a defensive back from Oklahoma State. Unlike Manziel, there was no excitement from the fan base about that choice.

To the credit of Farmer and Pettine, they are not giving away starting jobs and roster spots based on draft position. If Gilbert isn't ready, he sits. If Mingo is limited in some areas, he doesn't play all the snaps at linebacker. If others are better than Taylor, then cut him and pay him off. If undrafted free agents and/or rejects from other teams such as Taylor Gabriel, Tashaun Gibson, K'Waun Williams, Solomon, Meder and others deserve to play -- then play them.

When CEO Joe Banner took over the team in 2013, he talked about a "sense of entitlement" ingrained in some of the players. They thought their draft position meant they would play.

Farmer was hired by Banner and they shared this opinion: Entitlement had to go. Production was the bottom line.

The bottom line is the Browns have better alternatives than Taylor.

I fear what this will turn into, but I question Pluto's last statement. I think Pettine is the one who's behind the policy to not play guys who haven't earned it, despite their draft or contract status. Farmer was the one that was in trouble for texting to get the young guys on the field.

Phil Taylor visited the Steelers today. I don't know if that is good or bad.